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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 08:28:20 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Aug 19 08:04:50 2011.

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The big problem was southbound. I don't know whether it was a scheduling issue or what. The D would arrive at the interlocking with the lineup set for the local to go into the A3 track at Brighton Beach. The D express would just sit there and wait for the local before it got the lineup and signal for A1.

I don't know why, but it was a consistent mess.

If you want an example of a situation that was handled for decades with no problem, the Franklin Shuttles had to relay south of Prospect Park, and work around both northbound AND southbound locals AND expresses.


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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 08:32:10 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Fri Aug 19 07:53:48 2011.

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Essentially that was the pattern before Christie Street -- Brighton via Bridge went express to BB, then went local to Coney Island after hours.

But the TA has adopted a policy to try to keep services running the same routes at all time except hawk hours.


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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 08:36:16 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Aug 19 09:06:18 2011.

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Which would have added capacity at the expense of taking express trains off a direct route to downtown Brooklyn and taking them for a ride through South Brooklyn. Nonsense. Might as well have sent them up the Franklin Shuttle for a connection with the Fulton Street Line, a situation that the Brighton Line tried to get away from from 1878 until 1920.


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(1095690)

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Aug 20 09:28:23 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 08:28:20 2011.

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That sounds as if someone in the tower was deliberately trying to mess up express service.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Aug 20 09:30:44 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 08:36:16 2011.

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Plus the Brighton isn't even using all the existing capacity between De Kalb and Prospect Park.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 10:00:26 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Aug 20 09:28:23 2011.

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I guessed at the time there was some kind of rule that the local was supposed to enter and terminate first and then anyone who wanted to switch would be out on the platform as the express (to Coney) entered. My guess is they didn't anticipate that the locals would arrive late and the express would just sit and sit.

It was especially irritating if you were on the D outside Brighton and you needed to exit at the station. You waited for nothing.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 10:03:16 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Aug 20 09:30:44 2011.

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In theory it was supposed to right after Christie Street opened, with 30 TPH peak between the D, QJ and QB.


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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Aug 20 10:03:40 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 08:32:10 2011.

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It does make sense and it lessens confusion.

IIRC prior to Chrystie St., the Q ran only to Brighton Beach. For a time in the mid-60s, Q trains ran local along the Brighton line during midday hours along with the QT, but I'm pretty sure they still ran only as dar as Brighton Beach.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Aug 20 10:16:31 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 10:00:26 2011.

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Hmmm. It strikes me as simpler to advise local passengers to transfer at Sheepshead Bay Road. Maybe even take the train out of service there.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Aug 20 10:17:14 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 10:03:16 2011.

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Those must have been nice, spacious trains!

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 10:17:15 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Aug 20 10:03:40 2011.

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Yes, they did make Brighton Expresses local in Brooklyn middays to BB only during the '60s. It was scary because that kind of thing in the past was followed by discontinuing timeslot service altogether.


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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 10:26:40 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Aug 20 10:17:14 2011.

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I was down in Georgia then, so I didn't get to ride the earliest days of Christie. I did get to ride the NX but I don't recall what did they did with it at Brighton Beach.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 20 15:35:07 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Aug 19 08:04:50 2011.

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It was only recently that switches between A3 and A4 were reinstalled S/O BBC. When the platforms were originally extended to hold 10 cars in the 1960s, the switches were moved N/O the station because there was no room for them between the S/E of the platform and the A5 And A6 Yd tracks. The new switches S/O the station were installed beyond the switches to the yd tracks and those switches should probably be eventually moved S/O the diamond Xover so that put ins and layups can go to and come from the proper tracks. The reason that trains are currently not relayed S/O the station is probably as a cost cutting measure since the time it takes to relay would add to the cost of a run and possibly even add a crew or at least some switchmen to relay the trains.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 20 15:36:52 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 10:17:15 2011.

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The only reason that was done was to facilitate platform extensions at the Brighton express stops.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 16:28:34 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 20 15:36:52 2011.

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I don't agree. The Brighton Express went local midday in Brooklyn during the so called "May Massacre" cuts, May 1959, the same time that West End midday service was cut back to Chambers Street and years before platform extensions started.


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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Sat Aug 20 21:07:32 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 16:28:34 2011.

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The stupidity of the TA at that time! Making them local to BB actually wasted money, additional 10-12 minutes running time back and forth = additional train and additional 2 employees.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Gene B. on Sat Aug 20 21:24:32 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 17 18:48:14 2011.

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That is true, but will that affect Brighton Beach or Coney Island as the terminal? It will be a much longer route than at present, when it terminates at 57th St-7th Ave.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Freddy the Foamer on Sat Aug 20 23:56:53 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by streetcarman1 on Thu Aug 18 10:29:14 2011.

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It was a pain in the neck! Ave. J and Parkside Ave. were express only stops. We didn't get to see what the R32's could do for awhile. Late in the day, around 7PM the Q would make all local stops on the Brighton line. I guess it was the same asshole that thought the public didn't like riding express trains.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Aug 21 00:31:21 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Gene B. on Sat Aug 20 21:24:32 2011.

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I still say they should name that station, "57th St. - Carnegie Hall."

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Aug 21 07:13:43 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Aug 21 00:31:21 2011.

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Be careful. They might name it "Carnegie Hall (57 St)."

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 21 17:00:36 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by SLRT on Sat Aug 20 16:28:34 2011.

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I'll have to take your word for it since I didn't frequent the BMT that much back then but I don't recall that service pattern staring that far back. I can't see any reason for doing that since the additional running time via the Brighton Lcl would likely have required an extra crew.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 21 17:01:18 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Sat Aug 20 21:07:32 2011.

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I mentioned that in my post.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Aug 21 17:48:53 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Aug 21 07:13:43 2011.

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I'd just like to see Carnegie Hall mentioned. Look at it this way: Carnegie Hall was already there when the BMT Broadway line was built. Lincoln Center OTOH didn't even exist when the original line was built, but it's been incorporated into the 66th St. stop ever since it opened.

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Re: Brighton Express

Posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 21 21:10:52 2011, in response to Re: Brighton Express, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 21 17:00:36 2011.

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I believe the bottom line was that, by having two local services, they could cut the frequency of each service since the station coverage would still be tolerable.

But, since the end of World War II this was the classic way that the BofT and then the TA worked toward eliminating a service altogether. It was relatively rare to just cut out a line and service altogether and all at once. The falling ridership caused by the cutbacks was an extra excuse to cut service further.

A fairly large illustration of that was the 3rd Avenue el. IIRC the sequence was that first they cut the South Ferry branch, then the City Hall branch. This left the 3rd ending at Chatham Square, a southern destination almost no one would want as terminal. This left the 3rd essentially as a relief line for the Lexington for trips going north from 14th and midtown. Finally IIRC, they cut out weekend and nighttime service before the final axe fell in 1955.

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