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| Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) (1027802) | |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 15:09:49 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jan 25 14:36:14 2011. Even as late as 1962 when I first explored the area, the population density was very low which is probably why the old portion of the Fulton El turned off towards Liberty Av. |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 15:15:21 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Tue Jan 25 14:32:35 2011. That's about right but there were also some small signs on the light poles that merely had the initials "D. A." on them. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Teddmann on Tue Jan 25 15:43:21 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Edwards! on Tue Jan 25 14:45:02 2011. Here’s one way I look at it. It’s the late 1930’s, and construction has begun on Liberty to Euclid, and let’s say nothing past that. The war happens, construction stops. I personally don’t know to what extent these stations were built at this time, and if all of them were in the same state…I assume they were pretty close, as I doubt they would completely finish 1 before moving to the next. For example, you’re building 25 homes…all the framing is done, then the roofs, then the siding, etc, etc. Anyway…the war ends, and now constructions resumes, and these stations open in 1948, with Euclid being the terminal at this time. At some point, the decision to continue geographically east to 76th street was abandoned, and instead, Grant Ave came along in 1956 and on to connect with the Fulton EL.I’m not an expert with some terminology (so excuse me if I use the wrong terms), but in looking at the track maps past Euclid, to get from Euclid to Grant, you take a diverging route, while the main 4 tracks continue straight to a wall. Remember, before the war, nothing was constructed past Euclid right? Also, Grant Ave and it’s connection to the Fulton EL wasn’t planned in 1948…so the rails simply go straight past Euclid (with a diverging route to Pitkin Yard). At the time Grant was constructed…if you knew there was nothing past Euclid (save for a few feet of track)…AND you knew you’ve abandoned any further construction down Pitkin Ave…then why create the track alignment in such a way that the main route of this line MUST take a diverging route? I assume whatever rails were put in there prior to 1948 probably only had diverging routes to Pitkin. You had to rip up that section anyway to make the connection to Grant, right? Unless…whatever was past that wall served a purpose (or potential purpose), and necessitated the track alignment we have today. If there was “just a few more feet” of rail and tunnel…why keep the track alignment that way? Seems overly complex for a few feet of rail blocked by a wall. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 25 16:16:25 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 15:07:39 2011. The question then comes in as to where is the property owner entitled to vote. If the property owner is compelled to pay taxes to both jurisdictions then he/she should be entitled to vote in both of them too.Not clear, at least in Canton, Ohio. I assume it's whatever address you use to prove your residence when you register to vote, unless your state has a "home is where you sleep" law as suggested in the article and you want to vote where your bedroom is. In any case, payment of property taxes to both jurisdictions doesn't entitle the homeowner to a vote in both places, just as a New Yorker with a vacation home in Florida is still only entitled to one vote. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 16:22:52 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Teddmann on Tue Jan 25 15:43:21 2011. If you pay attention to the posts, the reclamation of the Fulton El and the continuation of the line towards 76 St and beyond were supposed to coexist. Nothing was ripped up to make the connection to Grant since it was built that way from the start. With a provision to connect the 4 tracks under Pitkin to the LIRR ROW in the vicinity of Aqueduct, the present branch to the Fulton el and Grant Ave was to have been built as it exists and according to a copy of the proposed connections in the area, existing BMT signaling was to be used past the 80/Hudson St. interlocking. The model board at Euclid clearly shows both the line as far as 76 St and the Grant Av station. Prior to the start of the actual connection, the K1 and K2 tracks branching off the Fulton St subway went as far as the present north end of Grant Av station and were built at the same time as the rest of the area infrastructure. As far as what was constructed prior to the war, that is a matter of conjecture but it is known that the entire tunnel infrastructure including station shells at least as far as a point south of Euclid and the yard leads to Pitkin Yard and the yard itself were constructed before the start of WWII. The only things lacking were the station finish, tracks and signals and its associated equipment such as interlocking machines.We may assume that the subway infrastructure could have been built as far as the 76 St station and beyond (sources claim the subway actually goes as far as 79 St. The reason Euclid was used as the terminal regardless of what my or may not have been constructed past that point is because it is an express station with a nearby yard and 76 St was not intended to be set up as a terminal. What I did discover is that while as of 1948, the continuance of the subway past Euclid and its eventual connection to the LIRR ROW was what was planned, a 1950 report on new subway lines shows the connection from the IND to the LIRR ROW as coming off the reclaimed Fulton St el at what is now Liberty Junction. Apparently, something happened in the 2 years between 1948 and 1950 that caused the city to abandon any plans for continuing the subway any farther down Pitkin Av than had already been built. I had heard that surveyors encountered problems with the ground under Pitkin Av that would have made further construction either prohibitively expensive or outright impossible. It may also just have been a matter of plain economics since the elevated connection at Liberty Jct with a ramp down from the el structure would have definitely been cheaper than continuing the subway down Pitkin and constructing another portal near Aqueduct especially since the city already had title to that potion of the former LIRR ROW anyhow. A possible reason that I see for all the mystery that surrounds the alleged existence of a 76 St station is that the decision to halt construction may have been made before construction actually ceased and to cover up whatever error did take place the area in question was simply sealed up to avoid potential embarrassment on the part of any individuals or government agencies and/or officials that might have been involved. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 16:27:08 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 25 16:16:25 2011. That may be true, but a person who owns 2 completely separate residences by choice with the express intent of using one as a vacation home is entirely different from a person who is forced into 2 jurisdictions due to the inability of 2 separate government entities to logically agree on inter jurisdictional boundaries. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 16:30:00 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 16:22:52 2011. CYA in government ... never happen! :) |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 16:38:20 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 16:30:00 2011. It may not be necessarily the government per se but other involved individuals. Around that time, the city administration was highly corrupt and there may have been some underhanded dealings going on with some construction companies attached to organized crime that could have involved the construction of the subway in that area. The possibilities are endless as it could have involved doing favors for some contractor who was a friend of a politician or a complex money laundering scheme that might have involved somebody either getting paid for work that was not done or doing work at an inflated cost to cover illicit transfer of funds. That could also be a reason why there is so much mystery surrounding the existence of the station. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 16:52:24 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 16:38:20 2011. Oh, agreed ... in fact this entire diverge is about the only part of the 76th Street mystery that has interested me. I got all the stories back in 1970/71 about what was past the walls and the tracks were still being used as "long term storage" by Pitkin for some of their "I don't think this witch will ever roll again under its own power" basket cases. And heard numerous confirmations that there really were some rails and unfinished work back there. Won't even bother with the strange track alignments. But WHY it didn't get finished? That's interesting to me. :) |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Jan 25 16:56:13 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 14:45:07 2011. Good post! |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 17:56:13 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 16:52:24 2011. As I mentioned in a few posts there are a couple of reasons why it was never finished. One is that I heard from somewhere which I can't recall that the surveyors encountered problems with the ground in the area that would have caused problems. Another is plain economics. Although in 1948, the continuation of the subway to connect to the LIRR near Aqueduct was in the plans, a 1950 map of new subway lines for NY showed the connection off the Fulton El at what eventually became Liberty Jct. Whatever reason caused the change in plans, it was definitely made by 1950 and may have just been that a ramp down form the el structure was cheaper than building a whole subway infrastructure down Pitkin Av with a portal to the LIRR especially since the city had title to the former LIRR at least as far as Liberty Av anyhow. Although under the subway plan, existing BMT signaling was to be used east of 80/Hudson St interlocking, there would have had to be a new signal tower built for the interlocking connecting a subway to the LIRR anyhow so a connection that was cheaper than a whole section of subway and a new tower having to be built anyhow probably influenced the city to cut its losses and abandon any further extension down Pitkin Ave. Perhaps if the continuation of the Pitkin subway farther into Queens had still been a possibility in 1950, the subway might have been continued but with the state of transit planning being in flux at the time with the not yet built SAS still on the drawing board and the impending Culver and 60 St connections between the IND and the BMT, a new subway closely paralleling the Fulton St el about to be connected to the IND anyhow was probably not very high on the city's list of lines needing to be built. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 17:56:54 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 16:52:24 2011. . |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jan 25 18:02:27 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 14:45:07 2011. Fine. If the MTA has no record of the B of T ever building beyond the cinder block wall, why don't they just say so? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 18:10:32 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 16:22:52 2011. no error took place,construction was stopped because of WW2.it was stopped a little past euclid ave. this is accounted for in building the ind.I would think that the line beyound 79st.would have to have test borings,since they had every intention of building it.they simply did not have the money after the war,looked what happened to the 2nd ave subway bonds.I have a 1940 hagestrom st.map showing the subway built to 106st.of course it didn`t happen,but it does show their secondary plans. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 18:13:42 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 17:56:13 2011. The "illegal contractor" one is one of my favorite conspiracies, particularly in light of the paperwork vanishing the way it did. If it was as a result of "responsible financing" you'd think they would have been trumpeting the documents as some tenable example of "aren't we great?" given the adverse press the city was receiving at the time. :)I've also heard that they hit some pretty serious water like they did down Nostrand, but you'd think that would have been figured out long before any shovels hit it. What they ended up doing makes sense of course, but then again the way the track alignments are down there suggested that if that had been the original plan, they would have been routed differently. And of course the takeover in 1948 probably hadn't been anticipated before construction began, so they could have easily blamed the former IND administration when unification was imminent. That's the angle that amuses me ... how thoroughly deep-sixed the paperwork went. When I was at PSC, had to do some research at state archives for some fiber optic routing, and in the course of that, found some boxes of old subway stuff that I riffled through after I found what I was sent out there to get and of course I went looking for anything I could find on it. There was NOTHING! :) |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 18:23:45 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Joe Saitta on Mon Jan 24 21:33:36 2011. or you can break a hole in the tunnel roof&pour the dirt down.I first discovered the cinder block wall in 1968 while exploring the layup tracks at grant ave. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Joe Saitta on Tue Jan 25 18:32:36 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 18:23:45 2011. Yes, that's possible but one would have to know the exact location and depth of where you wanted the dirt to land. I doubt this methods was used, however, as I don't believe any of the dirt was in front of the wall - the part you paid a visit to. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 18:44:32 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Edwards! on Tue Jan 25 14:45:02 2011. thanks for the backup.1964,I just started working for thr t.a.out of 207st.yard.tom carey, my maintainer who started with the ind from day 1 told me he worked pitkin yd.when it first opened.he was the 1st.one to tell me of the shell station at 76st.I asked him from time to time about various pockets around the system& he gave me exact answers if anything exsisted beyound the walls or not.in the ten or so locations I asked about he was right on every count,now we go to 1968.I,m a transit cop working out of dist.33,ENY.I,m on the A talking to the M/M about 76st,he says when he was a conductor on the pump train they went in beyound the portal "for a distance" before they hit water&pumped it out.he did NOT see the station,let me make that clear.about 2000 I call up a retired city cop who I worked with in the 7-5 pct about an unrelated transit matter.to be continued. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 18:48:10 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 24 14:58:11 2011. It doesn't, but it sure could use grade-separation and connection to a longer route. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 18:49:56 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Edwards! on Mon Jan 24 16:18:30 2011. No, that was a different road which would have run along Van Sinderen Avenue to the Belt around where Spring Creek Towers (fka Starrett City) is now. A controlled access replacement to Pennsylvania Avenue is a good idea. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 19:04:10 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 18:44:32 2011. continued:I was not even thinking about 76st.when he blurted out that in 1978[not 1968 as the times article says]he&his partner,a former transit cop,who ironically worked out of dist.33 also[I didn`t know him]took him into pitkin yd.on a slow 4 to 12,got a set of keys from the yardmaster&took him to the cinder block wallwhich at the time had a structure door in it.going thru the door they walked a distance on ballast,no rails or phantom trains untill they reached the 76st.platform they walked the platform to the end,saying it was a framed out ind.station with blue tiles on the wall.,center entrance to the street sealed up,the other side was an incomplete station[city bound]the edge of the e/b platform was as far as they went,shining their flashlites down the hole towards queens the could not see the end of tunnel.the 4 track ROW was a typical type 2 subway tunnel,no tracks,roadbed,lites,etc.it does extend to the grant ave concrete wall.so much for the nay sayers who say there is no proff it exsists.I started my subway speulonking long before a lot of you were born to all the nay sayers I put forth this challenge,why don`t you post the extent of your exploring&research? i,among others would like to hear about this. |
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Re: Interesting geo-oddity Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:04:11 2011, in response to Interesting geo-oddity Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 24 18:03:23 2011. Hook Creek Blvd, where the border runs along it, is called Ocean Avenue on the Nassau Side. The same thing happens in Floral Park/Bellerose, with the streets changing names mid-block. Most bizarrely, this happens on the Brooklyn-Queens border in the Spring Creek area. 75th through 78th Streets, all have names on the Brooklyn side, even where the border runs along them, this makes sense as it avoids duplication with Brooklyn's 76th-78th streets but there's no reason why the Queens side can't be named. On the west side of 78th Street/Sapphire Street south of Stanley Avenue/151st Avenue are a series of houses, which are numbered with sequential Brooklyn house numbers. I assume they have Brooklyn, NY 112xx ZIP codes rather than Jamaica, NY 114xx. I don't know whether the mail would be properly delivered if they write 78th Street instead of Sapphire Street.Now while this isn't especially notable, the houses are effectively in Queens because they abut undeveloped property, and it's impossible to enter Brooklyn without driving through Queens although one can come from Brooklyn without entering Queens because the southbound side is in Brooklyn. |
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Re: Interesting geo-oddity Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:04:42 2011, in response to Re: Interesting geo-oddity Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 24 18:05:46 2011. How very factual but irrelevant, thank you. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 19:06:20 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 19:04:10 2011. I forgot to mention these people have absolutely NO conn.to one another.also the pump train went in ,in the early `50`s. |
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Re: Interesting geo-oddity Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:06:50 2011, in response to Re: Interesting geo-oddity Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GIS Man on Tue Jan 25 12:29:53 2011. Beach 2nd Street is kind of a Queens numbered street and it is in Nassau County. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:11:48 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 24 13:12:52 2011. That doesn't make sense. Even if Pitkin Avenue wasn't built by the 1930s, it would have been built for any subway construction. AFAIK Pitkin follows its intended path. |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 19:21:14 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Tue Jan 25 11:47:24 2011. thanks for posting"i,m right" you are one of the few over the years that has said so. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Tue Jan 25 19:30:14 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Nyctransitman on Mon Jan 24 22:04:16 2011. Thanks. I'm thinking this is unlikely, but it would be awesome if you turned anything up. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:30:41 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 24 18:55:37 2011. I don't think those are the same person. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 19:34:45 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 18:13:42 2011. Actually, the takeover was anticipated as soon as construction of that portion started which is why, as I have explained in many posts the ramps to the proposed Grant Ave station along with the existence of both Grant and 76 St on the model board were there from the beginning. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:38:41 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Mon Jan 24 19:44:58 2011. New Lots Avenue formerly New Lots Road is the western connection. Unfortunately, I can't find a map of the Town of New Lots that details this, but if you want to know what happened to New Lots Road where it entered Flatlands, there's this map (that site is a treasure trove of info). NL Rd/Ave enters on the right side of the second map between the W and L in NeW Lots. Some modern roads are visible. The road it becomes is the modern Church Avenue, which makes sense; Church Avenue almost connects to Hegeman Avenue at East 98th and New Lots branches off from Hegeman. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:39:20 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jan 24 19:57:42 2011. That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Roads don't work that way. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 19:40:30 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 18:10:32 2011. I'm suggesting that the "error" took place after the decision was made not to continue the subway farther down Pitkin which would have been after the war. As I have mentioned in many of my posts, all accounts of the station describe the S/B platform as being at least partially tiled and that may have been the part of the work that was done in error and should not have been. Otherwise. whatever shell there may be would be completely unfinished like So 4 St or Utica upper. It may be that someone in the powers that be didn't want anyone to know that some of the station finishing work had been started after the plans to use that part of the subway were dropped. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 19:41:02 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 19:34:45 2011. Ah ... OK. Wasn't sure of the planning ahead of the "unification" and where the design for that fit in. Obviously both were planned or the routing would likely have been very different from how "as built" turned out. :) |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 19:44:15 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 19:06:20 2011. That's pretty much the way I got it. The various people I spoke to had no connection with each other yet they all describe the station shell in substantially the same way. What would be the odds of such a disparate group of people getting together at any time over the years to compare notes and concoct such a story? |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 19:49:11 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 19:41:02 2011. Yesterday, I found something I believe it was on nycsubway.org that mentioned that in addition to some of the variations I described in my posts, one of the proposed routings S/O ENY was to have the subway go down Liberty Av instead of doglegging down Pitkin and then back to Liberty and had it done that, the subway would have connected to the Fulton St structure directly along Liberty Av. It's obvious that regardless of the routing, IND takeover of the outer portion of the Fulton St El was the eventual aim. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:50:22 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:38:41 2011. CORRECTION: Clarkson Avenue is the western connection apparently.Also, found New Lots town map |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:51:28 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by GIS Man on Tue Jan 25 12:52:26 2011. BTW, I occasionally still see current maps showing most or all of the above.City planning maps still do, or did recently enough that they were on the website. |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 20:00:57 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by Mitch45 on Tue Jan 25 18:02:27 2011. Does anybody know if anyone at the MTA was ever asked directly? Of course it has been so many years since work of any kind was done in that area (think 1956) that any continuity of information about the area has probably been severely compromised and in all likelihood any current MTA employees involved with the archives is probably terminally clueless. By the way, the cinder block walls only exist at the ends of A7 and A8 yard leads. The wall at the end of the mainline is concrete and somewhere during the years of discussion mention was made that before the concrete wall was erected, there was only a temporary wooden barrier. The wooden barrier was probably replaced at the same time that Grant Ave was built since by that time it was obvious that whatever remaining portion of the subway there might have been would never be completed and it might as well be sealed up permanently. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 20:21:31 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:30:41 2011. I don't think they are either. Kevin has an account here (although hasnt been here in a while), but he posted as Kevin Walsh. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 20:22:50 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:39:20 2011. It appears to have forked out somewhere around the border, and one leg went up towards Glenwood Ave, and the other leg went towards Flatbush. |
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Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 25 20:28:02 2011, in response to Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street, posted by William A. Padron on Tue Jan 25 11:47:24 2011. "Let's not forget though that a in-between station at 84th Street and Pitkin Avenue was also planned to be built..."I think we should dig around 84 St too then. Maybe a station shell exists there as well. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 20:30:57 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 11:53:19 2011. I think it was done in the zig zag portion in Ridgewood/Bushwick some time around the turn of the 1900's. Could have even been the 1910's. It used to be a straight line from Newtown Creek straight through to the Cemetery of the Evergreens. When Ridgewood was being developed, there were buildings where you would cook in your kitchen in Brooklyn, but go to sleep in your bedroom in Queens. They then changed it to the zig zag pattern through there that survives to today.Oddly, even the parts of Ridgewood DEEP (a few blocks) into QUeens (and always in Queens continued to be served from the Brooklyn post office. That has to be why most of Ridgewood retained it's street names, even though in Queens. Oddly, some of Ridgewood did go into the QUeens system though too. On one side of the M train el, all the streets retain their Brooklyn names, on the other side of the M train el, they were changed (for the most part) into Queens numbered St's. Then to make it even stranger, one side of Forest Ave is in the Brooklyn numbering sequence (18-XX Woodbine St) for example, but then when it crosses Forest Ave, it jumps to 60-XX Woodbine St) for all those streets. VERY odd. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 20:35:18 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 25 14:24:56 2011. By the way, for a while, in Bellerose, one side of Jamaica Ave was Queens and the other side Nassau. Even more odd is that the Queens side of the road was called Jamaica Ave, and the Nassau Side was called Jericho Turnpike!!! I think more recently, they finally changed that and call both sides of the road Jericho Turnpike on the part with the border. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 20:36:43 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 25 16:16:25 2011. In any case, payment of property taxes to both jurisdictions doesn't entitle the homeowner to a vote in both places, just as a New Yorker with a vacation home in Florida is still only entitled to one vote.Yes, but that is quite different, as you only have one legal address/home, either the one in Florida, or the one in NY. In this case, it's the same home, and it is your legal address. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 20:38:30 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Jan 25 13:20:37 2011. Again blueprints mean nothing because they're drawn before building and drawing a blueprint doesn't mean that what's on the plans will be built. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 25 20:39:01 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 11:55:29 2011. I totally agree with you, but then again, the IND didn't always make sense. They built those shell stations at Utica, South 4th St, and other places, and those weren't "to be used for years" either.Even if they are only the width of the real station being completed, it still was a lot of extra work. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 25 20:41:22 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 20:38:30 2011. Just to square this a bit ... if any modifications are done from the original design blueprints (and it happens MOST of the time) you are required to provide "as built" blueprints that accurately reflect the infrastructure "as built" so that anyone who has to maintain it knows where stuff *really* is and how much of it. |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 25 20:41:35 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 19:30:41 2011. Lol |
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Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street) |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 25 20:43:25 2011, in response to Re: 76th St area - Satellite (Re: Q About LTV Squad and 76th Street), posted by Randyo on Tue Jan 25 19:44:15 2011. But none of these people-- not one-- thought to take a camera in there and snap even one-- just one-- picture? I know people didn't have cellular phones with built-in cameras back then, but still... |
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