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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 21:18:13 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Apr 12 21:14:41 2012.

What "hypocrisy"? The prosecutor has done in this case exactly what I said Zimmerman should be charged with.

Oh, and when I posted about the FOUR cops that were shot in Brooklyn last week, all of whom were white, presumably straight males, and deplored the out-of-control gun problem in NYC, was I being "hypocritical" then, too?

(931041)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 21:18:59 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 21:15:18 2012.

I don't think that's what Zimmerman claims. He says that he lost sight of Trayvon and got out of his truck to look for him. He walked down a path but didn't see him. As he was walking back to his truck Trayvon approached him from the side surprising him.

(931042)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 21:20:22 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 21:18:59 2012.

...and yet was still found face-down on the ground, a full football field away from Zimmerman's truck, with a gaping gunshot wound to his chest.

(931044)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 21:25:22 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 21:20:22 2012.

The distance that he was found from Zimmerman's truck might have something to do with proving Zimmerman's guilt, but that alone in no way suggests a foot chase. I don't think that you're very good at piecing this together. You're just guessing based on a limited understanding the evidence coupled with a significant bias.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Apr 12 21:26:30 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 20:24:30 2012.

i am not gonna hold my breath

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Apr 12 21:29:20 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 21:25:22 2012.

He's not very good a piecing it together because he WANTS it to be a certain outcome. He is using circumstancial evidence and claiming it as fact. Thankfully our justice dept wants real facts...not guys guesses and HUGE biases....

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 21:32:54 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Apr 12 21:29:20 2012.

The location of Trayvon's body, the 911 tapes, the gunshot wound, the other 911 tapes, all these are direct, not circumstantial evidence. I think YOU "want" Zimmerman to go free, notwithstanding the fact that the prosecutor found enough actual evidence to charge Zimmerman with murder.

(931055)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 12 21:35:51 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 20:24:30 2012.

I kinda hope they decide on something that pisses everybody off, like 8 years of community service or something like that :)

your pal,
Fred

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Thu Apr 12 21:39:16 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 21:32:54 2012.

I never once said I wanted him to go free...nor defended him in any way....bit your 'facts' are still circumstantial

(931067)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:00:26 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Apr 12 21:26:30 2012.

I hear ya ... I watched the AG's presser and it seems like they're going to try. Gotta wait for the outcome.

(931068)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:01:03 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 12 21:35:51 2012.

Welllll ... he's already sentenced to living in Florida. :)

(931070)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:07:40 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 20:44:29 2012.

Sorry for the delay - TimeWeenie sneezed. :)

Yeah, I did a few for them back in the day but I worked for Goldstein at the Other, then went with Jeff Shero over to RAT. Former girlfriend was the circulation manager for the Voice up until Clay Felker tried to own it. Interesting rag over its history. We have a similar here called "Metroland" with stories of its own. Heh.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:08:43 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 12 20:52:58 2012.

Just a piece of the story, but it does establish intent under that "depraved" bit ... had a feeling it would matter.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:11:28 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by JayZeeBMT on Thu Apr 12 20:40:23 2012.

Depends on who takes the calls, but those operators (even when they work for Podunk crank-a-phone) are trained in local procedures. And while it may not be a specific crime everywhere, the point I tried to make back there is that when you ignore instructions and something bad happens, it becomes part of the crime scene nevertheless ... "failed to follow lawful instruction" ...

Cops in the family here, cops as friends, get to hear how these hairs get split here and there.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:12:06 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 12 21:09:34 2012.

Precisely ... it's still getting used against him and that was my point.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:13:35 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 21:16:15 2012.

One is always welcome to disregard instruction of course. But when you choose to, you're now responsible for what happens if you get in trouble.

(931077)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:15:04 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:11:28 2012.

"We don't need you to do that" isn't even an instruction, much less a lawful instruction.

(931078)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:15:48 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:13:35 2012.

What instruction?

(931079)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:16:39 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:15:04 2012.

Like I said, let's see what comes from it. According to the AP report, that "not even an instruction" got Zimmerman charged with depraved indifference. Let's see how the DA fits that into the bill of charges.

(931080)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:17:36 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:16:39 2012.

Was he charged with "ignoring a lawful instruction"?

(931081)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:17:37 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:15:48 2012.

The one you keep dismissing. TOLD folks here that it was going to matter.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:18:13 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:17:36 2012.

"Depraved indifference" ... did you read the AP writeup?

(931083)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:19:26 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:17:37 2012.

"We don't need you to do that" is not an instruction. Instructions are not so ambiguous.

(931086)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:22:38 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:18:13 2012.

Ha as i said some of these folks would be sitting on that bench in Labor Relations if they played words games like that in RTO Kevin..

(931087)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 12 22:22:41 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:01:03 2012.

Cruel and Unusual...

your pal,
Fred

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:23:34 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:18:13 2012.

No I didn't, but I do know what depraved indifference means and it has nothing to do with obeying lawful instructions. It means that you do something so reckless or negligent that you should have known that tragic consequences were possible. The issue is not whether he disobeyed an order, but whether he should have known from that recommendation that following Trayvon was reckless. Sounds like a stretch, but I haven't read that article.

(931090)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Apr 12 22:24:47 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:17:36 2012.

good point. if it's illegal to disobey a 911 dispatcher you know he would have been charged with it.

(931093)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:25:29 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:22:38 2012.

It's not a word to game. He did not tell Zimmerman that he was not allowed to follow Trayvon. End of story.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 12 22:26:07 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:17:36 2012.

Contrary to what the F.U. Bailey from Glenmont would have you to believe, the instruction may have been "lawful" but it was not given under any sort of authority and no one was obligated to follow it. Perhaps it would have been the prudent thing to do but ignoring it was not a chargeable offense.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:26:22 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Fred G on Thu Apr 12 22:22:41 2012.

Damn skippy! :)

(931099)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:28:10 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:19:26 2012.

It was apparently good enough to nail him with.

(931100)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:28:41 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:25:29 2012.

It's not a word to game. He did not tell Zimmerman that he was not allowed to follow Trayvon. End of story.

Sounds like your mind is already made up anyway..

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by bingbong on Thu Apr 12 22:28:47 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 21:16:15 2012.

That's right. Another missing (from the RW spin) fact is that the dispatcher told him not to pursue Mr Martin (apparently a second time?) and that the responding officer would meet him. He disregarded those instructions.

(931102)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:28:58 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:22:38 2012.

Some folks really don't know how to play Simon says. :)

(931103)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 12 22:29:52 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:22:38 2012.

I've told you what my policy was. If it sounds like a suggestion, consider it an order. There was no ambiguity where I was. I don't believe the 9-1-1 operator had the same authority.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:30:01 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Apr 12 22:24:47 2012.

No he wouldn't because he didn't disobey an order anyway. In the subsequent conversation Zimmerman made it obvious that he was still following him and the operator never told him to stop. Railman thinks that I'm playing word games but to me it's a legal issue. All the operator was doing was covering his ass because he wanted to make it clear that he wasn't asking Zimmerman to follow a suspected criminal and then potentially be liable for any consequences.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:30:25 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by bingbong on Thu Apr 12 22:28:47 2012.

Another missing (from the RW spin) fact is that the dispatcher told him not to pursue Mr Martin (apparently a second time?) and that the responding officer would meet him.

Political spin or not where did this come from?

(931106)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:31:21 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:28:10 2012.

Except that he wasn't nailed for it.

(931107)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:32:15 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:28:41 2012.

How so?

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:32:43 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 12 22:29:52 2012.

I don't believe the 9-1-1 operator had the same authority.

^^^THATS whats being Beaten to death here^^^^

At least you "question" if its true or not

(Meaning not sure)

Too many grey areas...



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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:33:20 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:23:34 2012.

Not gonna force you to ... but those of us who know what Simon says is all about knows when a "suggestion" becomes the law anyway. If you don't do what you're instructed to do (and yes, that was a politely given instruction) then you get to eat whatever happens next. Then again, I have some advantages in knowing what would happen there - I've worked in government and I also know lots of cops.

If they "don't need you to do that" it's time to turn tail and let the pros handle it. That's what it means. If Trayvon hadn't been shot, then it wouldn't have been an arrestable offense. But if something goes down after a (shall we call it a "warning" maybe?) then you own it.

(931110)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:34:15 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by bingbong on Thu Apr 12 22:28:47 2012.

That's what I've been asking this whole thread. I asked you at least twice and this is the first that I've heard of a second instruction. Or technically a first instruction, because the first one wasn't even that.

(931113)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:34:46 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:34:15 2012.

I want to know where this came from as well.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by bingbong on Thu Apr 12 22:34:48 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:25:29 2012.

I wonder then, what part of wait to meet the responding officer before doing anything didn't he get?

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:35:35 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 12 22:26:07 2012.

So then why are they charging him on a basis of his failure to comply?

Just because we don't like each other doesn't make your statement true.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 12 22:36:16 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:31:21 2012.

Methinks perhaps you might want to read the AP thing after all then.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by bingbong on Thu Apr 12 22:36:28 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:34:15 2012.

It's in the AP article. I do not have a link as it came through my iPad app.

Look up AP: Prosecutors: Zimmerman ignored dispatcher warning

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by bingbong on Thu Apr 12 22:37:08 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Railman718 on Thu Apr 12 22:30:25 2012.

The AP.

(931121)

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:38:49 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 12 22:29:52 2012.

Of course. But the issue is whether disobeying a suggestion is unlawful and obviously it's not.

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Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody

Posted by bingbong on Thu Apr 12 22:40:00 2012, in response to Re: AP says Zimmerman in custody, posted by Easy on Thu Apr 12 22:15:48 2012.

Wait for the responding officer?

For all we know, Zimmerman may be regarded as a "pest" to the 911 dispatchers. They did their best to control a loose cannon.

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