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Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 13:41:22 2010 Story from Crain's.excerpt: Another big Bronx bakery closing By Daniel Massey Published: January 21, 2010 - 1:07 pm First, the Bronx lost its breadsticks. Now Melba toast's days in the borough are numbered. Months after the Stella D'oro factory shuttered following a fierce labor dispute, Old London Foods this week gave notice to the state Department of Labor that it will close its plant in the borough by July, resulting in the loss of 228 jobs. Old London, which manufactures Melba toast and other crispy bread snacks, will move its operation from the Morris Park neighborhood to Yadkinville, N.C., an hour-and-a-half outside of Charlotte. “The facility we're in is very old, and the capital costs to retrofit it and make the production lines effective and efficient are far too high,” said Rodney Liddle, the chief financial officer for Nonni's, the Oklahoma-based parent company of Old London. The workers, who are members of Retail Wholesale and Department Store Union Local 1102 and earn up to $18 an hour plus benefits, will be replaced by non-union workers in the North Carolina plant. “It's going to be a loss of very significant jobs in the Bronx, which is already very depressed,” said Frank Bail, Local 1102's president. “It's just another example of how difficult it is to keep jobs with pension, excellent health benefits and good wages in the city.” Mr. Liddle said city officials made no effort to entice the company to stay in the Bronx, but that any incentives wouldn't have made a difference. .... Greek food-giant Vivartia bought Nonni's in 2008 and has been trying to make production lines more efficient ever since, Mr. Liddle said. Bronx Borough President Ruben Diaz Jr. is pushing to bring another business into the 204,015-square-foot building—potentially a bio-tech firm—that would hire the workers who will be displaced. The unemployment rate in the Bronx is 13.9%, highest in the city. .... |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Dan on Sat Jan 23 14:23:04 2010, in response to Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 13:41:22 2010. Mr. Liddle said city officials made no effort to entice the company to stay in the Bronx, but that any incentives wouldn't have made a difference.I find this hard to believe. The city should have least tried to do something to keep them even if they knew it was a lost cause. Bronx Borough President Ruben Diaz Jr. is pushing to bring another business into the 204,015-square-foot building—potentially a bio-tech firm—that would hire the workers who will be displaced. Unlikely, a bio-tech firm would be more likely to locate in Westchester or some other suburb. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 14:36:25 2010, in response to Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 13:41:22 2010. I see no jobs lost in this saved or created figure. The jobs relocated.No net loss. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 14:37:16 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Dan on Sat Jan 23 14:23:04 2010. at 18/hour PLUS benefits(cadilac health plans those would be, with the tax increase on those), there are no incentive in the world that would've kept them there to make toast. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 15:05:59 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Dan on Sat Jan 23 14:23:04 2010. It's pointless to offer incentives when your workforce is unionized. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jan 23 15:41:12 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 14:36:25 2010. Uh, you bet there are jobs lost. Those people aren't being relocated. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jan 23 15:43:19 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 15:05:59 2010. Uh, those union workers would have done whatever it took to keep their jobs there...unless the owner was already committed to moving and nothing was going to change his mind. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 15:50:08 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 14:36:25 2010. I see no jobs lost in this saved or created figure. The jobs relocated.No net loss. I don't know what the net figures are; perhaps there won't be a net loss, or maybe there will be. The article doesn't say. But it does provide that 228 jobs will be lost at the Bronx plant. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 15:55:05 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Dan on Sat Jan 23 14:23:04 2010. I find this hard to believe. The city should have least tried to do something to keep them even if they knew it was a lost cause.It really was pointless. You have the capital cost of overhauling the plant or finding a new one, and you have the fact that unskilled labor is cheaper in NC, and not unionized. I see no reason to engage in corporate welfare to keep this company here if they feel that they can do better elsewhere. Unlikely, a bio-tech firm would be more likely to locate in Westchester or some other suburb. It depends. NYC is actually attracting quite a lot of biotech firms in recent years. We will probably continue to lose unskilled labor positions, but continue to add skilled and professional labor positions. It's been happening for decades. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jan 23 16:56:40 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 15:55:05 2010. NYC is actually attracting quite a lot of biotech firms in recent years. We will probably continue to lose unskilled labor positions, but continue to add skilled and professional labor positions. It's been happening for decades.Which creates its own set of problems, as the city has a huge supply of unskilled labor. My blog |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 16:59:47 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 15:05:59 2010. Unionization of unskilled labor is stupid. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 17:00:31 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jan 23 16:56:40 2010. This is why I support busfare. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 23 17:02:02 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 16:59:47 2010. Well, stupid for the empolyer. Smart for the worker.Would you consider train engineers and train operators "unskilled labor"? |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by busdude2 on Sat Jan 23 17:15:23 2010, in response to Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 13:41:22 2010. I can understand the move. Get out from under the thumb of the unions. Now they will move to NC and save millions in pay and healthcare and have a newer building. Unions kill a lot of jobs in this country just look at the earlier Stella D'oro dispute. This is a common thing nowadays. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 17:28:37 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 23 17:02:02 2010. No, that's semi-skilled labor. They don't need any general training, but it appears they need intelligence, given the examinations.The employer in this case is right for re-location to a right to work state. However I believe Taft-Hartley should be repealed, i.e. there should not be right to work states. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 23 17:42:34 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 17:28:37 2010. They don't need any general training,The training is pretty tough. Takes months. As far as right to work states go, I'll bet they don't enjoy the same standard of living that the pro-union states like NY and NJ enjoy. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 17:47:41 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jan 23 16:56:40 2010. Which creates its own set of problems, as the city has a huge supply of unskilled labor.That's in large part because unskilled labor - and skilled/professional labor - has been given subsidized housing. NYC's future is in deregulating the housing market. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 18:03:35 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 23 17:02:02 2010. No, it's self defeating. When you price yourself out of a market, you end up with nothing. So here we have 200+ unemployed union members. Would it not be better for them to be 200+ employed non-union members? |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:05:24 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 23 17:42:34 2010. I'll bet they don't enjoy the same standard of living that the pro-union states like NY and NJ enjoy.In the part of NC that we're talking about, that's right. Remember that this is a real social and intellectual capital. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Jan 23 18:06:15 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 18:03:35 2010. That's what factory workers in North Carolina thought too. Then they were all replaced by immigrants who didn't even speak English. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:10:56 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by busdude2 on Sat Jan 23 17:15:23 2010. Unions kill a lot of jobs in this country just look at the earlier Stella D'oro dispute. This is a common thing nowadays.That dispute was more complicated than the usual union-management one. As Stephen Bauman pointed out, prior management had really dug the firm a massive hole by going with chocolate that a large chunk of the consumer demographic couldn't consume without violating their religious scruples. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sat Jan 23 18:16:00 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Easy on Sat Jan 23 18:06:15 2010. LOL |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 23 18:21:33 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 18:03:35 2010. Yep ... the old "supply side" ... well ... the solution to that is for ALL Americans to adopt the economic lifestyle of Haiti, that way we can compete. Who's up first for a 90% pay cut to get this recovery going? |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by busdude2 on Sat Jan 23 18:29:48 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:10:56 2010. But unions seem to say go ahead shut down we dare you. Well that child like response can backfire on them . Some years ago the trucking company Red star express shutdown because of a labor 3 day strike. Now 3 days did not seem like a lot but it was enough to give the company an excuse to shutdown saying they could never recover the lost work. If people have jobs they better not rock the boat companies are not being held hostage anymore by unions. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:29:56 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 23 18:21:33 2010. Who's up first for a 90% pay cut to get this recovery going?Paradoxically, that wouldn't help things. However, if some, but not all, people took a 90% pay cut, that might help. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:34:47 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 18:03:35 2010. When you price yourself out of a market, you end up with nothing. So here we have 200+ unemployed union members. Would it not be better for them to be 200+ employed non-union members?In this case, I doubt that any concession would have sufficed, unless it went so low that most employees would do better in other lines of work. Of course, keep in mind that there's plenty of room at the bottom. There are many places that you can pay even less money in wages than you'll have to in Yadkinville, NC. And that's just in keeping with economics. As someone who believes that free trade is good, I don't have a problem with that. But many people do. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 18:34:49 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 23 17:42:34 2010. That does not mean it's general training. Jeez, first it was "public good" and now this. When will people realize that phrases don't always mean what they think they mean. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 18:35:33 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 17:47:41 2010. IAWTP! |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 18:38:30 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:34:47 2010. Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jan 23 18:39:00 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by busdude2 on Sat Jan 23 18:29:48 2010. The Stella D'oro's shutdown though was likely going to happen anyway, with how Kraft Foods ruined the brand. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 18:41:34 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jan 23 15:41:12 2010. so, when a company moves from one state to another, they lay off the people and don't hire anyone in the new location?You went from voodoo to ghost economics. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 18:43:33 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 15:50:08 2010. Yes and created elsewhere.Your president only cares about the net figure. 14,000 jobs are lost everyday in this country. New jobs come online in DC everyday. Those jobs are saved or created. Remember the Presidents speech. If you lose your job, you are sacrificing for future generations. You're just a pawn. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 18:44:53 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 18:43:33 2010. btw, tampa used to be the cigar capital, then some democrat got elected and taxed them out of business very quickly. If we could have a global government, then we can save and create those jobs overseas! |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:53:39 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 23 18:35:33 2010. It's happening, just very, very slowly, at least with regard to 'luxury decontrol'. Unfortunately, Mayor Bloomberg & co. are doing their best to bring aboard a lot of 'affordable housing', which is even more tinkering, and it's uncertain what the effect of that is going to be, long term. To speed things up, NYCHA should probably convert its developments into condominiums and sell off units as they become vacant. Electorally stupid, so it won't happen, but it would spare people a lot of pain long term, and really revitalize neighborhoods slowly but surely that have had to deal with the stigma of 'the projects'. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:55:59 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 18:43:33 2010. Your president only cares about the net figure.He's your President too...... At least until 2012. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 23 19:04:30 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:29:56 2010. So who's going first? After all ... that IS what the corporate lesson is. And yet half the populace LOVES their political party. And the OTHER half is about to be eaten as well ... |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jan 23 19:21:32 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 18:03:35 2010. It probably wasn't just a matter of union pay. It also sounds as if the Bronx facility was obsolete or at least uneconomic.My blog |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jan 23 19:34:51 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 23 17:02:02 2010. Well, stupid for the empolyer. Smart for the worker.Not really because when the business can no longer stay viable due to rising expenses, unionized labor being one of them, they just leave, and those people wind up being unemployed anyway. Businesses are the ones who supply jobs. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by busdude2 on Sat Jan 23 19:46:30 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jan 23 18:39:00 2010. Your probably right. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jan 23 19:50:36 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Sat Jan 23 18:41:34 2010. Jobs are gained in the new location, but lost at the old location. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jan 23 21:29:25 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 17:47:41 2010. That's in large part because unskilled labor - and skilled/professional labor - has been given subsidized housing.As one of those people in the former category (only an associate's degree no "real" college degree), in theory, moving away from NYC is probably a sensible solution, but for social reasons, I suspect that the only place that I'd feel remotely comfortable living in outside of NYC is another high cost of living region or leaving the country and moving to Canada. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jan 23 21:50:25 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 18:53:39 2010. Unfortunately, Mayor Bloomberg & co. are doing their best to bring aboard a lot of 'affordable housing', which is even more tinkeringGiven the nature of what constitutes affordable housing, isn't it really de facto give-aways to groups that are politically connected and not exactly crushed by crippling poverty? In other words, not the big box store employee with children making $25K, but a unionized employee making $50k with one or two children? To speed things up, NYCHA should probably convert its developments into condominiums and sell off units as they become vacant. Sell to the current renters themselves or to new residents? Electorally stupid While stereotypically, poorer residents have lower turn out, I'd certainly note that candidates will manipulate such a policy to pander to the public that doesn't live in the projects, but fears being priced out of the real estate market. but it would spare people a lot of pain long term Well, unless you're a resident of a housing project... Regardless, as this main topic and comment thread has alluded to, there's a sizable portion of this city's residents are unskilled, yet, have some degree of need by business for filling low level service employee functions, but due to market forces, are unable to command high enough wages to live without some degree of subsidy. If we reduce the subsidy, they'll flee and we get politicians who'll pander to voters with tales of being priced out by "greedy" landlords along with cries of racism, and if we goad employers into living wage regulations, we'll end up with employers who prefer unregulated areas and unemployed persons that require greater subsidy. I don't think there's any easy way out of the situation. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 23:04:59 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Jan 23 19:21:32 2010. True, but New York suffers for not being competitive in the unskilled labor department. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 23:06:38 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 23 18:21:33 2010. If lower wages means higher employment, then I am all for it. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 23:25:50 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jan 23 21:29:25 2010. As one of those people in the former category (only an associate's degree no "real" college degree), in theory, moving away from NYC is probably a sensible solution, but for social reasons, I suspect that the only place that I'd feel remotely comfortable living in outside of NYC is another high cost of living region or leaving the country and moving to Canada.You certainly seem to me more than bright and disciplined enough to move into the skilled/professional labor category. I know that you have had a rough patch in your personal life, but I would really urge people who exhibit the capacity to do more - and from what I've seen, you seem to have such talent - to do just that, more. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 23 23:34:55 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 23 23:06:38 2010. March on into your boss then, and say "I'll work for ten cents on the dollar." Let us know how that all works out ... :) |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by Easy on Sat Jan 23 23:36:06 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 23:25:50 2010. iawtp. And I agree with his post about the higher cost US cities as being the most desirable, although most in the US obviously don't. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jan 23 23:42:51 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 23:25:50 2010. You certainly seem to me more than brightGoogle, Wikipedia, spell check, and a little bit of time can allow the average person to overpunch their talents. disciplined enough That's actually where the failures lie. I'll refrain from retelling my life story over the past nine years, but I'd argue that poor personal discipline is probably what induced or exacerbated the failures or hampered whatever successes did happen. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Jan 23 23:47:12 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jan 23 21:50:25 2010. Given the nature of what constitutes affordable housing, isn't it really de facto give-aways to groups that are politically connected and not exactly crushed by crippling poverty? In other words, not the big box store employee with children making $25K, but a unionized employee making $50k with one or two children?Mostly, hence my scare quotes. Even where income thresholds are lower, the developer still has to turn a profit, which is something that many people don't understand about affordable housing construction. Guess who makes up the difference? Sell to the current renters themselves or to new residents? Ideally, it's goes along a route like the so-called 'no-eviction conversion plan'. (Like so many of the cooperative and condominium conversions in our area). So current renters are offered better terms than outsiders if they purchase, and to the extent that a prospective resident purchaser is sufficiently creditworthy, they make a down payment and can take out a note for the rest. Sometimes, a resident who is unable to purchase is offered a lump sum relocation payment, but I don't see that as necessary in this case. As units are vacated, they are put on the market per the offering plan. Sometimes these vacated units will be renovated before being offered. Perhaps some fraction of the profits from this could be used to support the aforementioned financing to resident prospective purchasers. Well, unless you're a resident of a housing project... Remember though that a goal of the conversion is to remove the stigma of 'the projects' weighing down neighborhoods. Many current residents would still be there for many years to come, e.g., just as in the thousands of developments from rental to (mostly) cooperative (and some) condominium cases. You have buildings that went co-op in the 1970s and 1980s that still have renters in them from that era, often on rent control or stabilization. Here, the idea is similar, slow decontrol, hence why the close relative to the kind of plan that I have in mind is called 'no eviction conversion'. Regardless, as this main topic and comment thread has alluded to, there's a sizable portion of this city's residents are unskilled, yet, have some degree of need by business for filling low level service employee functions, but due to market forces, are unable to command high enough wages to live without some degree of subsidy. Remember that the subsidies, and the zoning regulations too, have a dark side: artificial scarcity. Somewhat paradoxically, well intentioned measures to aid working class people can create scarcity spirals that eviscerate what the subsidies are supposed to do, which leads to even more heavy-handed subsidies, and an even more forceful scarcity reaction. I don't think there's any easy way out of the situation. It's hard, and any progress will be gradual. It might even rely on what people regard as counter-intuitive ways of thinking. |
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Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Jan 24 00:11:29 2010, in response to Re: Old London Melba Toast factory in Bronx relocating to NC - 228 jobs lost, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Jan 23 23:42:51 2010. Google, Wikipedia, spell check, and a little bit of time can allow the average person to overpunch their talents.True, but that's the window dressing. I'm looking at the reasoning process. That's actually where the failures lie. I'll refrain from retelling my life story over the past nine years, but I'd argue that poor personal discipline is probably what induced or exacerbated the failures or hampered whatever successes did happen. Discipline is indeed a tough thing to master. I have this case folder to read, and I've been putting it off all night! Luckily, I function quite well on 7 hours of sleep. All of those 1.5 hours saved add up! I won't disclose personal biography either, but discipline has long been an issue for me too. I was something of an intellectual peripatetic. Intelligence isn't wisdom. I think each year, it's gotten better. I'm still not there yet. Maybe someday. You do what you can, and there's a certain amount of smacking yourself and saying that I must get this done by this date, and I must set these priorities and follow through. And on that note, I think that I should finally read what's in this folder! |
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