|
|
| Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti (548478) | |
 |
|
| Home > OTChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 6 of 6 |
||
|
| (551265) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 22:56:44 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jan 18 22:31:48 2010. Remember the premises. Monotheism + all good + all powerful + all knowing. If you deny one or more of the premises, the problem unravels. The problem arises when you keep the premises and then have to explain the presence of extreme suffering in the world.This is indeed a complex problem - and I admit I don't have all the answers to this puzzle; there's much I'm still learning regarding God and His Word, so I only offered my suppositions based on what I know. While on this topic, I always associated omnipresence (God being everywhere at the same time) as one of His attributes; certainly this cannot be left out of the equation. You also seem to be watering down the monotheism premise with Satan. Again, that's fine, but not an answer to the puzzle. Hmm...how does Satan water down the monotheist premise, given that Satan himself is not a god? Along with God, there are the angels, and of course, Satan and his demons. However, even with angels, Satan, and demons, there is still only one GOD. my blog |
|
|
| (551270) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jan 18 23:00:54 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 18 22:42:38 2010. Denying one of the premises is not contrary to monotheism. Except the monotheism premise. After all, the problem doesn't come up for the polytheist who believes in at least one non-good deity.I suggested that Concourse Express was watering down the monotheism premise by Satan's divine/infernal power; alternatively, it's denying the omnipotence premise. |
|
|
| (551271) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 18 23:00:57 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 22:56:44 2010. If God is omnipotent, then he could destroy Satan at will. The fact that He doesn't is tacit acceptance of the existence of Satan. |
|
|
| (551279) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jan 18 23:07:15 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 22:56:44 2010. This is indeed a complex problem - and I admit I don't have all the answers to this puzzleIt's a very old problem, so don't fault yourself! Some very great minds have tried their hand at it. The philosophy of religion is mostly full of failures, but we learn a lot! While on this topic, I always associated omnipresence (God being everywhere at the same time) as one of His attributes; certainly this cannot be left out of the equation. In terms of the problem of evil, it goes down under at least one of the premise conjuncts, usually omnipotence/omniscience. how does Satan water down the monotheist premise, given that Satan himself is not a god? Along with God, there are the angels, and of course, Satan and his demons. However, even with angels, Satan, and demons, there is still only one GOD. For purposes of the problem, if you hedge and try to shift responsibility for suffering to another being, it's generally viewed as watering down the monotheism premise. Alternatively, it can be viewed as watering down the omnipotence premise. Remember that the problem, strictly speaking, is a philosophical one. The point is to assume the premises, and to avoid a contradiction. It's a general problem that is supposed to arise just in case one assumes the premises. The afterlife is usually viewed as a good out; it's probably the most successful argument, although the problem is generally regarded as being outstanding. |
|
|
| (551284) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 18 23:15:53 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jan 18 23:00:54 2010. IAWTP. Either God wants Satan to exist, which may be contrary to the all good principle, or is powerless to stop Satan, which is contrary to all powerful.Note that a belief that God wants/needs Satan to exist is not contrary to God being good. |
|
|
| (551286) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 23:24:27 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 18 23:00:57 2010. If God is omnipotent, then he could destroy Satan at will.That God chooses not to destroy Satan now doesn't mean that He can't destroy him; in this regard, were you contesting God's omnipotence based on what Satan "gets away with", so to speak? my blog |
|
|
| (551289) | |
Re: |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:27:52 2010, in response to Re:, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 18 21:54:14 2010. But being proud of it is better than being ashamed of it.Skin color is nothing to be proud or ashamed of. It's like saying that I'm proud (or ashamed) of my feces' brown color. |
|
|
| (551292) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:29:39 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 22:19:43 2010. (though I suppose one could make the argument that they're good by extrapolating from Genesis 1:9-10, where after the earth and its waters were created, God saw that [they] were good.)Good answer! |
|
|
| (551300) | |
Re: |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Jan 18 23:42:28 2010, in response to Re:, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:27:52 2010. Or as Bush would have called them, "the little brown ones." :) |
|
|
| (551301) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:42:41 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 18 23:15:53 2010. Note that a belief that God wants/needs Satan to exist is not contrary to God being good.A omnipotent God who willingly allows an evil entity like Satan to exist and do harm is not a good God. It's an evil God. A good, omnipotent, protective God who answers the prayers of the good people He created would smite him. |
|
|
| (551302) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jan 18 23:44:19 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:42:41 2010. Someone stated it perfectly about God: how maybe he/it is omni-present, but not omnipotent. |
|
|
| (551303) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 23:45:43 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:29:39 2010. :) |
|
|
| (551305) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 23:47:13 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Jan 18 23:07:15 2010. Outstanding indeed! As "impossible" as this problem may seem......all things are possible to them that believe! (Mark 9:23) That said, I must prepare for a busy day tomorrow; 'twas quite an interesting discussion! my blog |
|
|
| (551306) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jan 18 23:47:30 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 23:24:27 2010. I do not want to tread a religious issue, but maybe God is omni-present, but not omnipotent?I do not agree with him about God choosing to let evil happen. If God were to have done away with all evil in the world, there would be no poverty, war, etc. It would be utopia across the entire world. |
|
|
| (551309) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:53:03 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 23:24:27 2010. Satan gets away with nothing. The Bible says that God cast him off to reign in Hell (where bad people's souls go).For the followers of Christ, God then sent his only son to wipe away our sins if we follow Him according to the New Testament. He gives us the free will to follow that lead. In other words, people CHOOSE to do evil instead of living the kind of life that would lead to Salvation, not because the Devil makes them do it. Jesus' final words were "it is finished". |
|
|
| (551310) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 23:55:09 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:53:03 2010. True statement; that's why I put gets away with in quotes. |
|
|
| (551311) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:56:28 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jan 18 23:44:19 2010. An omni-present but powerless God would be useless and therefore not divine. It would be like a Universal Google Maps without the usefulness. |
|
|
| (551316) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 00:00:27 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:56:28 2010. So it's a choice then? |
|
|
| (551317) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Concourse Express on Tue Jan 19 00:00:57 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jan 18 23:47:30 2010. One more bite for the night...I can't resist!...I mostly agree with your assessment, but don't agree that God is not omnipotent. Unfortunately the problem is not a simple one. Regarding people, Satan is a tempter; he would try to get us to do evil things, but we can choose not to do them (even if we are enticed by such temptation, we do not have to "follow through" and conceive sin). The decision to believe in and serve God is also just that - a choice. The Bible says that God is Love - and love does not force itself. Even the Apostle Paul, in 1 Corinthians 13, states that having - and using - the gifts of God without love (or charity, in some translations) is fruitless. Though God could easily have us subjected to Him, how could we demonstrate our love for Him in this case? As was discussed earlier, this problem evolves when elements out of human control - such as natural disasters - occur. my blog |
|
|
| (551318) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 00:07:47 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Concourse Express on Tue Jan 19 00:00:57 2010. Yeah, I won't pretend I know about 'God' and the extent of his powers and why he allows 'evil' in the world. Religion and politics are 3rd rail topics for a reason. I think I need to cut back on this stuff [especially the 2nd one lol].Which is what I agree with that as far as nature goes, it is not good or evil. It is just a force. The real evil is what humans do to other humans. |
|
|
| (551323) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:12:22 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Concourse Express on Mon Jan 18 23:24:27 2010. I made that clear in the next sentence: That Satan's existence (if Satan exists) is God's will. |
|
|
| (551324) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:13:53 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:53:03 2010. That is logical. I don't believe in that, but I believe that "Satan" is about choice and free will. If it were easy to follow the path to God it wouldn't mean anything. |
|
|
| (551326) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:15:16 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jan 18 23:47:30 2010. But then there would be no tests of faith. |
|
|
| (551329) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:17:47 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 00:07:47 2010. This thread is very cordial. That's gotta be something.IAWTP |
|
|
| (551333) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:21:55 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Mon Jan 18 23:42:41 2010. FALSE |
|
|
| (551336) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 00:24:11 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:17:47 2010. Very, and I don't mind being corrected as long as there's no cursing at each other and such :) |
|
|
| (551337) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:26:48 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:21:55 2010. Satan tests humanity's righteousness by separating those who simply do good because it's easy and those who do good because it's right.If the Lord had said that "Thou shalt not fly without wings," then that would be useless because everyone would be in compliance without actually doing anything. So the same if it were impossible to be evil. By making it possible to be evil it proves the righteousness of those who choose to remain good even if it may not always be most personally beneficial. |
|
|
| (551345) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 00:55:00 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 00:00:27 2010. So it's a choice then? Yes. Doing evil is a choice just as doing good is a choice. If somebody believes in God, it's because He tells us to do so in the Scriptures in order to reach salvation. If somebody doesn't believe in God, it's because it's the right thing to do from a humanistic standpoint. Either way, it's free will and Satan (or God) has no power either way. He finished his work on Earth when he sent the Prophets, (or Jesus or Muhammed). It's up to us now. |
|
|
| (551346) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 01:00:34 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:26:48 2010. Satan doesn't have the power to test human righteousness. Only God can judge our conduct after our death. Satan takes the rejects because God doesn't want them.God laid out what is good and what is evil. Humans then make their decisions based on their own free will. The judgement comes in the afterlife not in the earthly one. Human affairs are entirely in the hands of humans, not God. |
|
|
| (551347) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 01:03:14 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 00:13:53 2010. If it were easy to follow the path to God it wouldn't mean anything.Agreed. |
|
|
| (551348) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 01:13:43 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 00:24:11 2010. Third Rails of topics is actually (and ironically) on the board that is supposed to discuss stuff like third rails...that is the main board.Is the M/V Combo good or evil? ;-> |
|
|
| (551350) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 19 01:21:59 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 01:13:43 2010. You're an antidentite bastard! :) |
|
|
| (551358) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 02:32:15 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 00:55:00 2010. If somebody believes in God, it's because He tells us to do so in the Scriptures in order to reach salvation.That's not the only reason. |
|
|
| (551359) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 02:32:49 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 01:00:34 2010. That may be the Christian view but it is not the universal view. |
|
|
| (551361) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 19 02:40:53 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 00:55:00 2010. You're worse at theologizing than Pat Robertson. (Not by much, though.) |
|
|
| (551363) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 19 02:41:48 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 19 02:32:49 2010. It's not even the mainstream Christian view. |
|
|
| (551364) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 02:42:40 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 19 01:21:59 2010. :chuckles: |
|
|
| (551365) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Grand Concourse on Tue Jan 19 02:43:13 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by SMAZ on Tue Jan 19 01:13:43 2010. lmao!A necessary evil? :) |
|
|
| (551366) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 19 02:51:23 2010, in response to Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Jan 18 11:05:16 2010. Wow . . . CNN falls on its face instead of taking advantage of an opportunity to put this guy in his place. Just hand him the ball, why don't ya? |
|
|
| (551367) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Jan 19 03:11:18 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 19 02:51:23 2010. Unlike the "example" put forth by Fox, it's not a news organization's job to put ANYBODY "in their place." The duty of journalism is to report, obtain information and present it. It's up to the recipients of the reporting to put people in their place and decide the issues. That's why journalists must NEVER be involved in "putting people or things in their place" ... once any news organization does that, they become a "leader" and that's not their job. |
|
|
| (551377) | |
Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti |
|
|
Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Jan 19 07:26:43 2010, in response to Re: Robertson: Hate and Haiti, posted by Grand Concourse on Mon Jan 18 22:35:17 2010. Of course morons who follow Pat Robertson, a devil disguised as a phony preacher, don't see it that way. |
|
|
|
Page 6 of 6 |
||