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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 24 10:13:34 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Easy on Mon Dec 24 00:53:27 2007.

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"You need jeebus."

How do you know the B61 bus wouldn't be better for him? Or the QM-1 (except when the Queens Midtown Tunnel is shut down)?

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(271553)

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 24 10:14:51 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by G1Ravage on Mon Dec 24 04:07:08 2007.

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You can decide you don't want to read Cicciaro's own words and the context (see no evil, hear no evil). The rest of us are smarter than that.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 10:19:09 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 01:06:28 2007.

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That's not the issue -- I agree with that, but that's why we have cops and courts and jails.

Last I checked, burglary was not a capital offense.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 10:21:13 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 01:48:26 2007.

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I don't give a rat's ass what the Texas penal code says. What he did was wrong, what they used to call a "sin." As the good book says, an eye for an eye. Breaking and entering does not merit a death sentence. End of story.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 10:21:36 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 24 01:34:10 2007.

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Right.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 10:27:25 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 10:21:13 2007.

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It's always wrong when the story is far from home. If this was your neighborhood, and you were tired of all the break-ins, you'd have a different outlook.

I'm glad you don't give a rat's ass about the penal code of Texas. Neither did those two assholes who were burglarizing the home of hardworking people. If you don't care, and the thieves don't care, why should John Horn care?

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 24 10:54:07 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 23 23:59:51 2007.

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Prosecutors should leave no stone unturned...as long as they can see the charges sticking.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 11:02:08 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 10:27:25 2007.

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To quote one of Train Dude's posts about John White:

"Shooting in self defense should have been the last resort - not the first option."

If you don't think the same rules apply to Mr. Horn, then I fear you are one of those folks who value property over human life. At least White was trying to protect his son -- Horn was just -- well I don't know what he was thinking.


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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 24 11:02:48 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Dec 23 12:45:03 2007.

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The weapon, however, could have been something less harmful...that might hurt but not kill. (Knowing karate may also help in such a circumstance.)

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 24 11:06:55 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 23 13:06:34 2007.

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A rational person, however, may have gotten some implement to defend himself that may hurt a bit...while sending someone else to call the cops...i.e., a 2 x 4, that would hurt someone, but unlikely to kill someone. However, the question had to be of: Who made the first move?

I am curious to see if that was brought up in trial...did Ciccaro---or one of his friends---actually make a move or two to White FIRST? If they did, that should have changed things, as this now becomes an issue of self-defense.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 11:11:36 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 11:02:08 2007.

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He explains what he was thinking.

The value of property is secondary here. These evil foreign menaces were not stealing a parked car-they were invading a home, and that is a threat to human life. Read the Texas Penal Code. You're allowed to use force to stop a burglary. Horn is a patriot and a hero in my book.


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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 11:30:48 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 11:11:36 2007.

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Force is different from deadly force.

He did not know they were foreign. And what does that matter? The are not human?

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 11:49:34 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 11:30:48 2007.

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They are human. But when a foreigner comes to this great country and repeatedly commits violent crimes against the great men and women of America, they are committing an act of war. That's why Mr. Horn is such a great patriot.

Read the Texas Penal Code, and you'll understand why Horn was not arrested. The bullshit has to stop. There's no reason not to shoot a burglar.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 13:22:54 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 11:49:34 2007.

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"There's no reason not to shoot a burglar."

Come on. How does he know that they are for sure burglars? Why isn't burglary a capital offense if they all should be shot?

They should be arrested, tried and convicted. Period.

And one of the guys had no prior record -- he did not repeatedly commit crimes, let alone violent ones. And Horn had no knowledge they were not US Citizens when he shot them. So how could he be a patriot?

It's funny that the more crime is going down, the more people are getting paranoid about it.

Horn is an asshole, not a patriot. But then a lot of self-proclaimed patriots are assholes.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 14:11:52 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 13:22:54 2007.

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He saw them removing items from the home. He knew they were not his neighbors. He confronted them, and they tried to escape. If they weren't burglars, they would've answered the questions of the concerned citizen. The world is a better place, because there are two less violent criminals on the street.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 14:20:53 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Forest Glen on Sun Dec 23 00:49:43 2007.

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Though the youths were not skinheads, if indeed John White had asked the youths to leave his property OR 'I'll get my gun' first as a warning and the youths continue to threaten him and his family then I'd think that Mr. White got shafted. I have to reread the specifics to give some final thoughts to this.

Obviously, there are no winners in this on either side.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 14:27:51 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Forest Glen on Sun Dec 23 00:49:43 2007.

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Though the youths were not skinheads, if indeed John White had asked the youths to leave his property OR 'I'll get my gun' first as a warning and the youths continue to threaten him and his family then I'd think that Mr. White got shafted. I have to reread the specifics to give some final thoughts to this.

Obviously, there are no winners in this on either side.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 14:31:47 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Amanda on Sun Dec 23 02:46:47 2007.

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Suffolk County cops would be suspect to have taken the side of Mr. White considering the rep of Suffolk Cty Police.

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Re: John White Jury Deliberation story

Posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 24 14:45:54 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 14:20:53 2007.

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NY Juror Felt Pressured in Shooting Case
Published: 12/24/07, 2:26 PM EDT
By FRANK ELTMAN
RIVERHEAD, N.Y. (AP) - A juror who helped convict a black man of fatally shooting a white teenager said he felt pressure from other jurors and the judge to change his vote to guilty during a marathon deliberating session over the weekend.

The jury convicted John White of second-degree manslaughter in the August 2006 shooting of 17-year-old Daniel Cicciaro Jr. White, 54, remains free on bail until sentencing, when he faces a prison term of five to 15 years. He plans to appeal.

The case drew national attention after the defense argued that White had feared a "lynch mob" had come to attack his family when a group of angry white teenagers gathered outside his home. The teens had come to fight White's son.

Juror Francois Larche, who is white, said he and another holdout juror changed their votes Saturday evening after enduring "a lot of psychological tactics" from fellow jurors on an unusual weekend session ordered by the judge over jurors' protests.

Larche, 46, said the stress had become unbearable.

"It was a huge burden to bear," Larche told the New York Post in Monday's editions. "It got heated. Some of the men lost their cool. I took a lot of heat."

The jury forewoman, Maureen Steigerwald, denied that the judge, a 12-hour deliberating session on Saturday - the fourth day of deliberations - or the holidays played a role in the jury's decision.

"The jury did a very careful, conscientious deliberate job," she told Newsday in Monday's editions.

The jury told Suffolk County Judge Barbara Kahn on Friday it was deadlocked and that some jurors were not properly following the judge's instructions. They continued deliberations on Saturday.

Kahn said the jury would have to return on Sunday if they didn't reach a decision. Several jurors appeared stressed when appearing in the courtroom; one man nearly collapsed in tears and buried his head in his hands early Saturday evening.

Larche told the Post the judge also told them a mistrial would leave the families to suffer more and the next jury with a larger burden. He said he and the second juror decided then to change their vote.

"I thought about my family and the families of the other jurors," Larche said. "It was not worth it in the end."

Larche's home telephone number was out of service on Monday


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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 14:47:01 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 14:20:53 2007.

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Mr. White did say "I'm going to shoot you" according to witnesses. To me, this is more of a bully incident than racist one. Thoese kids will never bully anyone again.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 18:11:36 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 10:19:09 2007.

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Neither is being a jackass - hence we suffer on with you!

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 18:17:01 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 10:21:13 2007.

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Gee. You have no respect for the law. How predictable.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 18:22:35 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 11:02:08 2007.

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My statement was based on NY law. Had this crime been in Texas, then my reply would have been appropriate to Texas laws.

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Re: John White Jury Deliberation story

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 18:26:05 2007, in response to Re: John White Jury Deliberation story, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 24 14:45:54 2007.

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Oh, pleeeeeze. There are one or two of these clowns after every controversial criminal trial. They are either media seeking weasels looking for a book deal or to sell "their story" to the enquirer or they don't have the courage of their convictions so they say they were pressured to excuse what might be an unpopular decision.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:11:14 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Dec 23 18:09:58 2007.

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There's precedent for a judge telling a jury to "get a verdict done", particularly if there's only one or two dissenting votes. An instruction that jurors "holding out" should consider the view of the majority more than their own is quite normal.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:13:00 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 24 00:48:55 2007.

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LOL.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:15:35 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Dec 23 19:38:47 2007.

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The only crime he committed was not legally owning the firearm (New York makes that next to impossible anyway). He WAS in immediate physical danger, even the punks he shot at admit they were going to rob him.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 19:16:48 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:15:35 2007.

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And armed with sharpened tools too.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:22:36 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Dec 23 23:07:19 2007.

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You mean the infamous "You look allright, how about another" line? It never happened. 5 eyewitnesses at the trial disputed Geotz himself. Geotz's rage has led him to continue to insist he did something he never did, despite Barry Slotnik's desperate attempts to stop him. It's why he lost the civil suit later brought against him.


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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:27:17 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 23 14:14:15 2007.

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But whites in this country have never been oppressed by blacks.

I'm not surprised that you'd buy into this rationalization. Past oppression doesn't justify or excuse current racism. I'm Irish, my ancestors were forced off their homeland. Am I entitled to be justifiably hateful towards today's British?

Black people, in 2007, are not oppressed. Any black person over 40 has most likely never seen or been a victim of an act of institutionalized racism their entire lives. No matter what they may think ...

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Easy on Mon Dec 24 19:30:57 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:27:17 2007.

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Under 40?

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 20:08:29 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Easy on Mon Dec 24 19:30:57 2007.

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Yes. That would mean folks born no earlier than 1967 (perhaps 1972 in Alabama).

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 20:12:06 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 14:11:52 2007.

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They were not clearly violent.

I guess you don't believe in redemption. People make one mistake, they should die. I hope I never have to live in your world.

And I hope you never make a mistake.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 20:14:00 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 20:12:06 2007.

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We live in the same world. It's a shame you can't see that this man did something to make it better.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 20:14:11 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 14:20:53 2007.

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Well, Mr. White did a stupid thing by bringing his gun into the equation....two wrongs don't make a right. He should have thought things through....it's a sad state of affairs all around.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 20:35:43 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by BMT Guy on Mon Dec 24 20:14:11 2007.

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I grew up knowing too many like Daniel Cicciaro and grow older and more tired with each new one that comes along;
The John Lesters of the world.
The Ryan Cushings of the world - that toss frozen turkeys through car windshields of innocent motorists.
The Darryl Cabys, James Ramseurs and Barry Allens of the world that mug innocent citizens.
All the little shits of the world whos testosterone replaces their brains and make them think that they are superman without the cape - bulletproof and untouchable.
Personally, I was hoping that the jury would split the difference. There can not be any winners here. Certainly Danial Cicciaro did not deserve to die for his stupidity but I don't believe that John White, in his stupidity, meant to kill him either. Sad, two families destroyed and no progress to report.



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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 20:39:36 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 20:35:43 2007.

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There's no doubt about it, the Cicciaros are "gumbahs" of the highest order. They all probably know every line uttered in Goodfellas by heart. But that doesn't mean one of them deserved to be shot to death.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 20:51:44 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 20:39:36 2007.

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And in my post I said just that! I don't believe that this young man deserved to die but I also don't believe that John White really intended to kill him. Of course, the manslaughter verdict was legally justified due to reckless behavior but I wish the jury would have convicted on the weapon and on the charge less than manslaughter.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 21:05:04 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 20:51:44 2007.

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Legally what White did counts as manslaughter.

I wouldn't sentence him to the max. But he has to do time.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Easy on Mon Dec 24 21:06:37 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 20:08:29 2007.

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No later than 1967, not earlier.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Dec 24 22:23:48 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 19:15:35 2007.

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I wonder if you would have the same sentiment had the skin colors been reversed.

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Re: John White Jury Deliberation story

Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Dec 24 22:25:35 2007, in response to Re: John White Jury Deliberation story, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 24 14:45:54 2007.

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I'd like to thank the two people who actually have a conscience. Too bad they had to succumb to the tactics of their racist peers.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Forest Glen on Mon Dec 24 22:28:13 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 21:05:04 2007.

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I would be willing to meet you halfway. 3-5 is more than generous, especially considering that Cicciaro grabbed the gun.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by AMoreira81 on Mon Dec 24 22:33:57 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 20:51:44 2007.

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That is what I thought would happen. When I saw a MANSLAUGHTER (as charged) conviction, that is where I was shocked.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 22:34:06 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by LuchAAA on Mon Dec 24 20:14:00 2007.

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Maybe, maybe not. That's why we have "rule of law" -- to find out facts rationally.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 22:36:09 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Train Dude on Mon Dec 24 20:35:43 2007.

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Hear, hear, Train Dude.

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Dec 24 22:37:27 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Dec 24 20:39:36 2007.

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Gumbahs? (More usually spelled "goombas.') But his mother is Puerto Rican!

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Train Dude on Tue Dec 25 00:16:48 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Forest Glen on Mon Dec 24 22:23:48 2007.

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This is not a sporting event where you should be rooting for the "HOME TEAM". It's about right and wrong - not black and white. As long as ppeople on both sides trade intellectual honesty for racial loyalty, the criminal justice system well always be a sports venue instead of what it should be.

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Re: John White Jury Deliberation story

Posted by Train Dude on Tue Dec 25 00:20:16 2007, in response to Re: John White Jury Deliberation story, posted by RonInBayside on Mon Dec 24 14:45:54 2007.

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Yeah, hold onto that thought!

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Re: John White Found Guilty

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 25 00:34:55 2007, in response to Re: John White Found Guilty, posted by Easy on Mon Dec 24 21:06:37 2007.

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No, he means no earlier.

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