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| Re: Israel Invades West Bank (1222106) | |
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Re: Israel Invades West Bank |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:48:04 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 15:51:06 2014. Excellent post. |
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Re: Israel Invades West Bank |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 22:48:14 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Sep 17 22:41:58 2014. And a Big fuck you to you too! |
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Re: Israel Invades West Bank |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:48:52 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Sep 17 18:50:11 2014. What's your point? |
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Re: Israel Invades West Bank |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:49:41 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 19:00:47 2014. You may have not said it explicitly, but it is woven in to your comments. You know full well what could happen if your vision for the Middle East is implemented, even if it isn't your intended result. |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 22:50:36 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 17 15:40:11 2014. There's a false equivalency in your statement that "BOTH sides need to stop shooting at each other". As the saying goes, if the Arabs stopped fighting, there's be no more war. If the Israelis stopped fighting, there'd be no more Israel.I don't say that Israel has never done anything wrong - they undoubtedly have. But I see the clear cause of the present situation as the Arab unwillingness to accept Israel as a Jewish state in any borders. Yes, they make noises about two states, but they insist that all Arabs who left what became Israel in 1948-1949, plus all their descendants, be allowed to settle in Israel - which would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. This is therefore a complete non-starter from Israel's perspective. In looking at the justification for Israel's position, it's important to note that while about 800,000 Arabs left what became Israel, a greater number of Jews from the Arab countries of the Middle East and North Africa fled on account of anti-Jewish rioting that broke out on Israel's formation - and about 850,000 or 900,000 of them ended up in the new State of Israel. Essentially, there was a population exchange, similar to what happened when India and Pakistan were created. No, it wasn't pretty, and there were clearly injustices that took place - but on the whole, there's no justifiable reason for Israel to be required to accept the Arab population back into its borders (whatever they're ultimately determined to be). So, it's a much more complex and nuanced story than the one told by the Arabs - and the demands placed on Israel to allow the Arabs who fled and their descendants to "return" are just not going to happen, and there is no good basis to demand that Israel allow it to happen. The recognition of this fact by the Arabs is necessary before there will be peace - and I'm not holding my breath waiting. I'm just getting on with my life, as do most Israelis, with a hard-eyed realism and the realization that there isn't always a good solution to every problem. subfan |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:50:44 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 19:00:50 2014. I know far more about this issue than just about anyone here, I suggest you listen to what I have to say about it. You might learn a thing or two. |
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Re: Israel Invades West Bank |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:52:07 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 19:00:55 2014. I've posted evidence, you've discounted it because it is in direct opposition to your claim that Aaron was mythical. I even said there is no way to prove this one definitively either way but that wasn't enough for you. You are one closed minded asshole. |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 22:52:43 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 15:51:06 2014. He certainly doesn't give me a fair hearing. |
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Re: Israel Invades West Bank |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:53:00 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 19:00:59 2014. Actually, the odds of that happening are quite low. Palestinian right of return above a symbolic number of refugees is a non-starter and everyone knows it. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:53:25 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 19:01:02 2014. Absolutely not. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:53:50 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 19:01:20 2014. Read my posts. I seem to know far more about what you think than you do yourself. |
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Re: Israel Invades West Bank |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 22:53:51 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Sep 17 22:41:58 2014. And a Big fuck you to you too! |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 22:53:58 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:48:04 2014. Thank you - and I hope you agree with my description of our disagreements. :-)subfan |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:54:55 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Gamera on Wed Sep 17 21:23:41 2014. IAWTP |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 22:56:22 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:50:44 2014. Well - perhaps not quite everyone. I'd like to think there are at least one or two individuals who are similarly knowledgeable.subfan |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:58:24 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 19:14:02 2014. There is no chance of peace being achieved that way.Do you think the United States should eliminate Christmas from the list of federal holidays? What about Thanksgiving? Do you realize that your proposal undermines the concept of a Jewish state in multiple ways? And if you start explaining to me how there is no need for a Jewish State in today's age, you are just advocating for Israel's demise and I will call you out for it. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:59:28 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 22:53:58 2014. I do. Shana tova! |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:00:01 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Gamera on Wed Sep 17 21:23:41 2014. I think you're being too kind. The Arab majority wouldn't vote to expel all Jews - based on recent history, they'd be more likely to try to exterminate them.A liberal attitude toward religious minorities is sorely lacking in today's Middle East. subfan |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:00:26 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 22:56:22 2014. Thus why I wrote just about everyone, I have a few people in mind who know as much or more. You have a TZ, don't worry about making the cut. |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:01:20 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:59:28 2014. Thank you - to you and yours as well.subfan |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:04:15 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:00:26 2014. I most certainly do have one - and one son in Netzach Yehuda (Nachal Chareidi) and another in Hesder.subfan |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:05:54 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:04:15 2014. Sorry - I hit post too fast.That most certainly leaves me with a personal investment in the matter - and I make sure to be as knowledgeable as I can be about items of personal concern. subfan |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:07:18 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:05:54 2014. Trust me, I totally understand. The question is does anyone else? |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:14:01 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:52:07 2014. Why do you treat that schmuck nilet with more respect than me? |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:17:36 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:07:18 2014. It's not necessary for everyone to be an expert on the Israel/Arab issue, the same way that it's not necessary for me to be an expert in the EU's farm subsidy policy. It's just irksome when individuals who have no idea what they're talking about are absolutely certain that they know what Israel should do to bring peace, and if Israel doesn't do that, then Israel is clearly the party in the wrong.There is plenty of space for reasonable people to disagree on what Israel should or should not be doing in the meantime - but a basic fact that needs to be taken into account is that at this point, at least, no matter what Israel does, there just won't be a final peace agreement. The most that can be hoped for is some combination of conflict management and partial interim agreements to try to stabilize day-to-day life, with the hope that eventually, a new generation will be able to make true peace. Trying to force a final peace agreement at this time does more harm than good - sometimes no, you don't just "have to do something. (note the allusions to the "John Kerry Solutions Ltd." YouTube video.) subfan |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:22:06 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:50:44 2014. That's condesending. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:23:23 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:22:06 2014. Maybe it is, but it is also seen as being true by many people here. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:23:54 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:17:36 2014. You're preaching to the choir. Points taken. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:24:27 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:14:01 2014. I just called him a closed minded asshole. You've said far worse to me. How do I disrespect you exactly? |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:26:02 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:23:54 2014. With you, perhaps. There's a larger audience in this forum as well that I hope is open-minded enough to consider the views I expressed.subfan |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:28:01 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:24:27 2014. By ignoring most of my responces to you, and you respond to virtually every post nilet sends you. |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:30:16 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:26:02 2014. Mr Subfan, I presume you are Jewish as I am. What is your opinion of a so-called 2 state solution? |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:46:27 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:28:01 2014. If that is your metric for disrespect, you should be glad I'm not responding to every one of your posts. |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 23:50:15 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:30:16 2014. I think it unworkable at the present time.Please do not interpret this as a view one way or another on the theoretical desirability or lack thereof of such an arrangement - I choose not to address such point. subfan N.B. - It's just "subfan", no "Mr." necessary. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 17 23:50:16 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Sep 17 15:40:11 2014. No. Only one side needs to stop shooting. |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 23:57:43 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 23:46:27 2014. By ignoring be is a sign of disrespect? |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 23:59:53 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by chicagomotorman on Wed Sep 17 22:52:43 2014. I gave you one. It's not my fault you blew it. |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 23:59:56 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:49:41 2014. You may have not said it explicitly, but it is woven in to your comments.Ah here we go again. I didn't actually say it, but you imagined that I did, so that's totally the same thing guys. You know full well what could happen if your vision for the Middle East is implemented... My vision for the Middle East being what, exactly? You haven't offered any indication you have any idea what I actually believe. Links to the joke post will be answered with a picture of a facepalm. |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 23:59:59 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:50:44 2014. I know far more about this issue than just about anyone here...You think you do, but that's only because you have difficulty distinguishing reality from the fantasy world you inhabit. Protip: When you deny something that's all over the news and claim to be descended from mythical people, you're not well-informed on the issue. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:00:02 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:52:07 2014. I've posted evidence...Where? Link to it. After all, it's a fairly common tactic among OTChat's nutter population to ignore, deny, and deflect the first six demands for evidence and then answer the seventh by claiming you've already provided it. I even said there is no way to prove this one definitively either way but that wasn't enough for you. I remember you admitting you don't have any evidence, and you're right I won't believe you without it. You are one closed minded asshole. Summary of every WMATA argument: "You're a closed-minded asshole because you refuse to believe everything I say no matter how ridiculous it may be!" I think you're confusing "open-minded" with "gullible." |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:00:15 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:53:00 2014. Actually, that wasn't what I was talking about. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:00:15 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:58:24 2014. There is no chance of peace being achieved that way.Gee really? Try highlighting that post. Do you think the United States should eliminate Christmas from the list of federal holidays? No need. Christmas is a secular holiday now, unless there's a sect that believes Jesus was born in a Macy's. What about Thanksgiving? Not religious. Do you realize that your proposal undermines the concept of a Jewish state in multiple ways? So you're saying Israel is a theocracy? And if you start explaining to me how there is no need for a Jewish State in today's age, you are just advocating for Israel's demise and I will call you out for it. Or in other words: "If you don't want to kill all the infidels, then you want to kill me." Nice false dichotomy there. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:00:16 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:53:25 2014. So then you are the one playing word games and deliberately misinterpreting what I say. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:00:19 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Sep 17 22:53:50 2014. Not an answer.If you're so certain you know what I believe, then describe it. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:02:29 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Sep 17 23:50:16 2014. Last time I checked, both sides were shooting. Peace would tend to require that they both stop. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Sep 18 00:04:39 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:02:29 2014. One side always starts shooting. The other side is only defending itself. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Sep 18 00:06:43 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Sep 18 00:04:39 2014. Actually, over the decades both sides have taken turns to be the aggressor. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 18 00:16:02 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Sep 17 22:03:22 2014. Of course not ... so continue saying the correct answer. Oh wait ... lulz |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Sep 18 00:18:07 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by subfan on Wed Sep 17 22:50:36 2014. Not saying Israel's done anything wrong. But at some point, a permanent solution that works for both sides is going to be necessary. Hopefully the opposition will be up against something worse to their minds than Israel and hopefully that'll be the inspiration they'll need to figure something out that works better than what they're doing. Even the 100 Year war between France and England finally reached sufficient attrition to make both sides stop fighting. |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Sep 18 00:23:37 2014, in response to Re: Israel Invades West Bank, posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 17 23:59:59 2014. Firstly, just because something is on the news doesn't make it true. Secondly, what exactly am I denying? Thirdly, you have yet to offer definitive proof that I am not a descendant of Aaron and that he did not exist. |
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