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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 16:44:45 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 16:42:05 2014. Link? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 16:46:40 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 16:44:45 2014. http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-calls-for-suicide-bombings-in-response-to-settlement-expansion/ |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 16:51:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 16:46:40 2014. Ah.Well, that's wrong. Obviously. Of course, it doesn't make Israeli oppression right, but it doesn't exactly help their case either— even if I can sort of understand the thought processes that lead them to say it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 16:52:55 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 16:37:35 2014. Motive does matter if you're trying to reduce the number of crimes and victims. If the motive is material needs, then maybe ways of giving the people in question basic needs and/or ways of getting themselves or their children out of poverty helps. If the motive is the unequivocal extermination of you, your family and your society, then something more severe is probably needed. Like separation, isolation, and the restriction of weapons and raw materials for such. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:00:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 16:52:55 2014. Motive does matter if you're trying to reduce the number of crimes and victims.Funny thing is that all the people who support the "war on terror" are generally the same sort of people who oppose addressing the root causes of crime. If the motive is the unequivocal extermination of you, your family and your society, then something more severe is probably needed. I can't think of any crimes committed recently where the motive is "unequivocal extermination" without some external driving factor. Palestinians attack Israelis because they're kept impoverished. Al Qaeda's leadership certainly hates anyone who doesn't belong to their silly cult but the bulk of their membership is motivated by food, money, and prestige in a poor society where every advantage counts— and even the leadership is partially motivated by America's constant meddling in other people's countries. Even the Nazis themselves would not have had enough power to do anything too evil if a large number of Germans weren't motivated by economic insecurity to cling to any promise no matter how empty and any scapegoat no matter how tenuous. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 17:21:56 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:00:31 2014. Funny thing is that all the people who support the "war on terror" are generally the same sort of people who oppose addressing the root causes of crime.Well, that depends on a person's belief of the root causes and solutions of crime. Significantly different opinions on that. I can't think of any crimes committed recently where the motive is "unequivocal extermination" without some external driving factor. Palestinians attack Israelis because they're kept impoverished. OK, here's where we get to the crux of the dispute here. Which came first, the belief that Israel and it's people should be wiped off the map, or Israel's oppression of the Palestinians? Which caused the other? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 15 17:31:35 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 17:21:56 2014. The former caused the latter. Israel didn't even have any Palestinians to "oppress" until 1967. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:35:42 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 17:21:56 2014. Well, that depends on a person's belief of the root causes and solutions of crime. Significantly different opinions on that.We can measure the effects that different policies have on crime, so we know that "more prisons, longer sentences" doesn't work, while things like economic opportunities, drug treatment, and even banning leaded gasoline do. OK, here's where we get to the crux of the dispute here. Which came first, the belief that Israel and it's people should be wiped off the map, or Israel's oppression of the Palestinians? Which caused the other? Causal relationships are complicated and belief is not a binary affair; the existence of a belief is meaningless if you don't know the prevalence of the belief. We do know that when people are kept in poverty, they're inclined to lash out against the people keeping them there, so it's a fair bet that's happening here and that ending the poverty will lower the violence accordingly. Will it completely end the violence? Of course not. There are underlying political and territorial disputes, not to mention the fact that people of different religions have been killing each other for centuries. However, we should definitely notice some reduction in violence— not to mention that it's the right thing to do anyway. While they're clearly not the same thing, a few parallels can be drawn between Hamas and the Nazis— in both cases, a group with a distinct hatred for a particular demographic is elected to power by a populace which is impoverished, desperate, and willing to cling to any promise of improvement, especially if it's made by an organisation which provides a tiny handful of token support services when nobody else will. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 17:41:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Apr 15 17:31:35 2014. It's also arguable that this level of oppression didn't really start until the second Intifada, when Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount. The Palestinians went batshit crazy, didn't calm down, thus leading to Israel imposing harsher measures. Before, it wasn't unheard of for Palestinians to get jobs in Israel, Israelis and Palestinians mingling, a less severe blockade, if any, and of course, no wall. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 17:41:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:35:42 2014. 
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 17:44:47 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 17:41:08 2014. you the Palestinians flipped out because a jew visited a jewish holy site |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:51:23 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 17:41:49 2014. 
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 17:57:24 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:51:23 2014. http://stevenpinker.com/files/pinker/files/pinker_comments_on_lead_removal_and_declining_crime.pdfanyway my graph shows that poverty and crime are not correlated. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 17:57:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:35:42 2014. While it's true that it can be complicated, the fact of the matter is that calls for Israel's destruction have been around since Israel's formation, and not by a few violent wackos either. With a few notable exceptions, the belief that Israel should be wiped out never really diminished. And as I mentioned in another post, this level of oppression didn't come about out of nowhere. It started after the second Intifada, and it's been tit-for-tat ever since. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 18:27:01 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Tue Apr 15 17:35:42 2014. We can measure the effects that different policies have on crime, so we know that "more prisons, longer sentences" doesn't work, while things like economic opportunities, drug treatment, and even banning leaded gasoline do.That may be true, but there's also the belief that crime shouldn't be rewarded. Also, there are times when the person is just a scumbag. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Wed Apr 16 16:35:09 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Apr 15 13:55:14 2014. So the police are supposed to know that someone is on a terrorist watch list before they can question someone? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Apr 16 20:04:33 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Jeff Rosen on Wed Apr 16 16:35:09 2014. Of course not ... I remember what you were referring to when you kibbitzed about the camera thing and went with the theme here. I was referring to Gamera's leap to a conclusion there and decided to have my own fun with it. C'mon, Sarge ... this is ME here. :) |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 16 20:41:17 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Jeff Rosen on Wed Apr 16 16:35:09 2014. These types won't want to act until it affects them personally, by which time it's too late. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 16 20:53:00 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 19:03:59 2014. He saw what he chose to see. I've been to Bethlehem, passed through military checkpoints, raised several thousand dollars for an organization that brings together Israelis, Palestinians, and Jordanians to build co-existence, and worked with Israeli Arabs on a variety of projects in my office. I've also been through Ben Gurion Airport and have friends who have been strip searched there before being allowed to board planes. I've seen far more and talked to more people all over the spectrum than you have, and experience on this board suggests that will carry far more weight with most people here than your Googling will. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 16 20:53:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:09:58 2014. They might be disputed territories, but they are not occupied.How do you feel about the Jordanian Occupation of the West Bank from 1948 until 1967? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed Apr 16 22:24:39 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 16 20:53:54 2014. Isn't Israel really from the Nile to the Euphrates? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 16 22:52:05 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Wed Apr 16 22:24:39 2014. That's what the Torah says.But the "Palestinians" still think they have the right to the land "from the river to the sea". |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Apr 16 22:56:45 2014, in response to Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Apr 13 10:46:30 2014. I still find it amazing that so much of the world turns on the doings of a tiny, historically downtrodden people of only 15 million on a piece of land the size of New Jersey. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 16 23:02:38 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Apr 16 22:56:45 2014. Why is that amazing? It's only amazing to those that discount (and scoff at) the spiritual dimension of the matter. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 02:56:30 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by dand124 on Tue Apr 15 17:57:24 2014. No, your graph shows that income inequality (not poverty) is not the exclusive cause of homicide (not crime in general) in the United States (but not worldwide, let alone places where the cause of poverty is popularly attributed to a specific target). |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 02:57:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 17:57:25 2014. It doesn't change the facts of Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 03:04:18 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Tue Apr 15 18:27:01 2014. Sure, there's a handful of scumbags; crime will never be reduced to zero. That said, I fail to see how anybody has proposed "rewarding" crime. Take a look at some of Norway's prisons. Then take a look at their recidivism rate. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:17:21 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Gamera on Tue Apr 15 10:36:53 2014. What photo permits have I been unable to get? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:27:18 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 16 20:53:00 2014. He saw what he chose to see.And you didn't? Anecdote for article. I'll take those odds. Especially given your little outburst about how other people's dietary choices are "antisemitic." Not on OTChat, mind. I've quickly learned that what people think here tends to have at best a casual association with reality. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:30:53 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Apr 16 20:53:54 2014. How do you feel about the Jordanian Occupation of the West Bank from 1948 until 1967?As a rule, I'm opposed to "occupations," but you'll have to refresh my memory about the details of this one. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:33:27 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Apr 16 22:56:45 2014. The one part of the Middle East that doesn't have oil, and people are killing each other over it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:34:25 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 16 23:02:38 2014. It's only amazing to those that discount (and scoff at) the spiritual dimension of the matter.Ooh, that's another term you might just owe me a definition for soon enough! |
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Posted by Gamera on Thu Apr 17 07:17:09 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:17:21 2014. PATH. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 17 07:32:41 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 18:35:23 2014. No, I got it. You can relax. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 17 08:09:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 02:57:08 2014. It doesn't necessarily change the facts, but it provides a pretty convincing reason why the situation has gotten the way it is. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 17 08:11:41 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 19:14:31 2014. SMDH |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 17 08:12:48 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Mon Apr 14 21:28:03 2014. SMH/SMDH |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 08:24:08 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Gamera on Thu Apr 17 07:17:09 2014. Since when has anybody been able to get a PATH photo permit? I just took the pics without one.And what does that have to do with any of this anyway? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 08:24:15 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 17 07:32:41 2014. I'll just assume you made some completely random assumption and walked off absolutely convinced of its accuracy due to your failure to understand nuance and context.It's not a certainty, of course, but with you that's definitely the way to bet. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 08:24:17 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 17 08:09:31 2014. We don't particularly need to know why the situation got the way it is to know that the current situation is wrong. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 08:24:22 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Apr 17 08:11:41 2014. That's not an answer. Try again. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 17 08:57:31 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 08:24:17 2014. But if you want to change that situation, you have to know how it got the way it is. Otherwise, any solutions proposed will end up looking shallow, uninformed, and otherwise lacking credibility. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 17 09:41:37 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 03:04:18 2014. That said, I fail to see how anybody has proposed "rewarding" crime.Because it ends up looking something like: 1) Commit a crime. 2) Become the recipient of government aid and services. whereas hard-working citizens pay taxes and don't get that kind of support. It's a major simplification (after all, prison isn't known for its freedoms), but this is a major conservative talking point. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 09:46:41 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 17 09:41:37 2014. Well the conservatives can go sit on a biscuit. They're the ones denying that kind of support to the hard-working citizens in the first place.I suspect most people would rather have a lower risk of being the victim of a crime and lower taxes (since crime and prisons are socially expensive) even if it means resources are spent rehabilitating criminals in a manner that some nutjob can turn into a talking point. Norway. "Luxury" prisons. Low recidivism. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 17 10:01:18 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:30:53 2014. Are you serious? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 10:04:49 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 17 10:01:18 2014. Why, shouldn't I be?If someone asks me my opinion on an event I'm not familiar with, can you think of a better response than to ask about the event? |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Apr 17 11:40:19 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:33:27 2014. I saw an interesting article over Passover regarding the current battle over Jerusalem and how history repeats itself.In Genesis, there is the story of Abraham's mustering of 318 men and defeating five kings who controlled much of what later became the biblical Land of Israel. Right after that battle was won, God appeared to Abraham and told him not to worry, that God would be his shield. The question is: why did God make this assurance AFTER the battle had already been won? Why not before? The answer given was that as soon as the war was won, Abraham knew that the surrounding nations would be upset and angry at Abraham's victory - after all, who was this insignificant old man with his tiny army to defeat such powerful rulers? He knew that they would soon muster against him to take back what he had won. That is why God assured him at that time and not before. Similarly, when Israel conquered East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, wise people knew that the world powers would never be comfortable with Israel's victory, that they would never allow Jews to control the world's most holy places. And ever since 1967, the world has been trying to undermine Israel's right to those lands, indeed, to undermine its continuing existence. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 17 12:28:11 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 08:24:17 2014. The current situation may be wrong, but a solution needs to be found that gives the Palestinians a state AND simultaneously guarantees Israel's security. Let us know when you have a plan for how to do that. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 17 12:32:16 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Nilet on Thu Apr 17 04:27:18 2014. He saw what he chose to see.And you didn't? I most definitely did the same, everyone does. But for starters, how many people do you know have been to Hevron and gone on walking tours of the city with both right wing settlers and Breaking the Silence? I've done both. I've quickly learned that what people think here tends to have at best a casual association with reality. You're a perfect example of this. Years worth of posts prove it. |
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Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Apr 17 12:32:54 2014, in response to Re: Palestinian university students’ trip to Auschwitz causes uproar, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 17 10:01:18 2014. Of course he is. |
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