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| 4004 and all that Re: Atheism (1036514) | |
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4004 and all that Re: Atheism |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Feb 18 11:42:04 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 18 00:51:45 2013. Numbers?Yes, like ages in genealogies. The MT represents one late tradition here — they just guessed. Other traditions occur in the Samaritan Pentateuch and in the Ancient Versions (chiefly the LXX). Here is a side-by-side reading of the MT/LXX disagreements between Adam and Abraham. You know who added numbers to the scriptures, right? It was not the Masoretes. The original author, one hopes. But it is patently obvious from the variants we have that the numbers in the genealogies have been mistranscribed several times, so that we cannot be sure what the original numbers were. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 18 12:01:53 2013, in response to 4004 and all that Re: Atheism, posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Feb 18 11:42:04 2013. You're citing translations rather than the original text. The Hebrew text is unchanged. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 18 12:58:24 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Feb 18 08:20:26 2013. Have you looked into the theory? |
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Re: 4004 and All That Re: Atheism |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Feb 18 13:59:19 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 18 12:01:53 2013. You're citing translations rather than the original text.We don't have the original text. We don't have any manuscripts at all from several centuries after the original text was written. And the point of citing the Versions (the LXX etc) is precisely because they sometimes have older and better witnesses than the MT. Our earliest MT witness is about six centuries newer than our earliest LXX witness, and about five centuries newer than our earliest Peshitta and Vulgate witnesses. The Massoretes did us absolutely no favors. This is why the Dead Sea Scrolls are such a game changer: it meant that our oldest Hebrew manuscripts suddenly got a millennium older. The Hebrew text is unchanged. That's obviously false, most obviously because there are variants between different Hebrew Manuscripts too: as well as the MT, we have the DSS and the Samaritan Pentateuch. For instance, the Samaritan has Methuselah as 67 years old (vs LXX 167 and MT 187) at Genesis 5:25, if you really want to go and read Hebrew in horrible characters. This also makes it look like the LXX preserves the original Hebrew reading in this case (with the MT and Samaritan preserving different errors), which is interesting given the chronological problems this causes with Methuselah's death and the Flood. Could the errors be deliberate, one wonders... There is also a distinct plausibility issue in the present case: did you notice Kainan in the genealogy comparison I linked you to? Whether the number involved was originally 30 or 130, it's an obvious case of parablepsis occasioned by homoeoteleuton (or the scribe's eye skipping to the next thing that ended the same, to put it more plainly). That is far more likely than the alternative explanation of a translator inventing an extra ancestor. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 18 14:08:56 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Easy on Sat Feb 16 16:28:05 2013. God- and change- have always existed! |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Mon Feb 18 14:09:49 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 17 22:28:08 2013. The ten commandments are not mentioned in Exodus 34, that's why.Yes, they are: it says so in verse 28: "He was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments." They're in Exodus 20. No, they're not. The phrase "ten commandments" does not appear at that point. Deuteronomy 5 says so. And that set doesn't match Exodus 20 quite either, although you are right that that is the source of the common application of that phrase to the set in Exodus 20. There is an implied "and" in Exodus 34:28. That's special pleading. Show me some more of your proposed implied ands in the Hebrew Scriptures. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 18 14:45:52 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Feb 18 12:58:24 2013. If he's anything like you, then no. But he's not, so I would think yes. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Feb 19 03:42:31 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by SMAZ on Mon Feb 18 00:41:58 2013. The entity known as Yahweh or Jehovah God does not need OUR validation/proof of his existence.The main focus here that many are forgetting..he doesn't need our belief IN HIM for HIM to be..he always was..will be forever..with or without us. So whether atheist,agnostics,or whatever they decide to label themselves condemn, revile and ridicule those who's faith IN GOD sustains them..we don't really care. What we see in the world,due to the efforts of the "godless man",is the prevailing tide of evil..or mans basic envious lustful vainglorious nature take over.His hatred..his greed and his PRIDE is pocket marked all over the world.The endless wars..the extreme poverty..his towers in the sky..his ravaging of the planet..his constant invasion into his own mind with lusting images of perversions of every kind to suit every appetite. his constant moral decay,his steady march to oblivion has not deterred his choice for "debauchery under cover" with either laws created to "keep hope alive"..or by stealth. Either way..Mans view of himself,a self righteous posturing buffoon full of self love bent on his own demise,though you would never get anyone to readily admit that,will continue to listen to his own counsel.. further taking heed to the lawless souls..removing all traces of "God" from the hearts and minds..until they choke of their own filth. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Feb 19 03:50:19 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 17 14:41:31 2013. truth..why should a theory be supported as truth..yet Genesis dismissed by the HUMANIST as a fairy tale? |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 03:53:26 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Edwards! on Tue Feb 19 03:50:19 2013. The big bang theory does not contradict Genesis. I see no incompatibility Even Catholics accept the theory that it could have all started with "the word." Just sayin' ... :) |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 04:03:37 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 17 14:41:31 2013. It really is an awful show. :)
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 05:31:48 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 03:53:26 2013. The Genesis creation myth is incompatible with reality. The Earth does not predate the Sun. PERIOD. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 05:37:46 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 05:31:48 2013. It appears that some Protestant sects have come up with their own variation of Genesis ... they call it "creationism" and to them, it's a science much like AGW ... Catholics don't buy it that way. FWIW, how are "days" defined in Genesis? You'd kinda have to have the sun first to count them, or there would have to have been some other light source.From a religious standpoint, I don't see the "big bang" or "evolution" as being contrary ... inb4 Olog sentences me to hell. :) |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 05:39:20 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 05:37:46 2013. BTW ... you might find THIS amusing. :)http://creation.com/how-could-the-days-of-genesis-1-be-literal-if-the-sun-wasnt-created-until-the-fourth-day |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 05:52:40 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 05:31:48 2013. The Genesis creation myth is incompatible with reality.It's a nice story about Sabbath observance. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 10:34:16 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 05:31:48 2013. You were there?It's amazing how unscientific your posts are; they really reflect your total ignorance of science. Ever ask a physicist where physical laws came from? |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 19 11:03:12 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 10:34:16 2013. *I* was there. And I am NOT going to tell you what I saw (or did).You will have to figure that out for your self. --Jesus |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 15:00:27 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 05:39:20 2013. That's not what I was talking about. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 15:01:32 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 10:34:16 2013. LOL! |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 15:03:32 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 10:34:16 2013. Asking "You were there?" is the stereotypical response of a braindead creationist! But everyone already knew that about you. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 19 16:10:34 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by SLRT on Sun Feb 17 16:47:54 2013. Beside the point. |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 19 16:12:53 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 18 07:52:58 2013. http://www.gallup.com/poll/148427/say-bible-literally.aspxJuly 8, 2011 In U.S., 3 in 10 Say They Take the Bible Literally Plurality view Bible as inspired word of God but say not everything in it should be taken literally by Jeffrey M. Jones PRINCETON, NJ -- Three in 10 Americans interpret the Bible literally, saying it is the actual word of God. That is similar to what Gallup has measured over the last two decades, but down from the 1970s and 1980s. A 49% plurality of Americans say the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it should not be taken literally, consistently the most common view in Gallup's nearly 40-year history of this question. Another 17% consider the Bible an ancient book of stories recorded by man. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 16:21:32 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 19 16:12:53 2013. Another irrelevant poll. If it reflects anything, it's the doom of this country.But we have a Pope due to retire in nine days that also said to not take the Bible literally. That says more about him than it does about the Bible, though—same goes for his church, that stressed so-called "primacy" of scriptures versus authority, making man the authority. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 16:24:35 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Feb 18 07:52:58 2013. "Many millions" is still closer to "tiny fraction"Then you ought to stop having problems with people saying stuff like this, one would infer, if that's what you believe? |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 17:12:45 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 16:21:32 2013. You are mentally ill. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Feb 19 17:20:11 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 16:21:32 2013. He calls for a dialogue of Scripture and Tradition, which would make perfect sense, since if not for said Tradition, Scripture would not have been assembled as we have it today. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Feb 19 17:40:38 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 15:00:27 2013. I know ... but it IS what I was talking about. Don't sweat the small stuff. :) |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:11:38 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 16:21:32 2013. same goes for his church, that stressed so-called "primacy" of scriptures versus authority, making man the authority.And who wrote those scriptures? |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:13:23 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 19 16:12:53 2013. ARGH!No. No, no, no, 666 times no. Believers like Slonopas do not “take the book of Revelation literally” — they take the book of Revelation and cut it up into a thousand tiny pieces, placing those pieces into a hat along with a thousand more tiny pieces taken from Daniel, Ezekiel, parts of Matthew, the screenplay for The Omen, folklore, blood-libels, and urban legends. And then they take those pieces out of the hat one by one, stringing them into sentences to which they accord all the authority of holy scripture. They take those fabricated sentences “literally,” but not the book of Revelation. |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:26:45 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:13:23 2013. they take the book of Revelation and cut it up into a thousand tiny pieces, placing those pieces into a hat along with a thousand more tiny pieces taken from Daniel, Ezekiel, parts of MatthewApart from the "hat" bit, did you ever read Isaiah 20:10? (Not the God's Word version.) |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:27:09 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:11:38 2013. Not the Catholics, to be sure. |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:37:09 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:26:45 2013. did you ever read Isaiah 20:10? (Not the God's Word version.)Funnily enough, no, because Isaiah 20 only contains six verses. |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:38:24 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:37:09 2013. Blast mine typo. Make that 28:10. |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally)Isa. 28:10 |
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Posted by RockParkMan on Tue Feb 19 18:42:47 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:38:24 2013. http://bible.cc/isaiah/28-10.htm |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:45:25 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:38:24 2013. "They speak utter nonsense." :-DYes, that doesn't exactly match the others... I actually have the New English Bible (yes, the one with the fart joke) open in front of me, and it says: "It is all harsh cries and raucous shouts, 'A little more here, a little there!'" But maybe you wanted something more conventional, like the ESV: "For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little." Or the HCSB: "For he says: 'Law after law, law after law, line after line, line after line, a little here, a little there.'" Or Challoner: "For command, command again; command, command again; expect, expect again; expect, expect again: a little there, a little there." Or Knox: "It is ever, Pass the word on, pass the word on, Wait a while yet, wait a while yet, A word with you, here, A word with you, there!" At least Knox has a helpful footnote: "In verses 9-13, the prophet evidently relates a personal experience. It seems as if the dissolute notables of Jerusalem had taunted him, over their wine, with always repeating the same ‘catch’ phrases, like one teaching children to spell, or a stammerer who can get no further with his sentence, or a foreigner who cannot express himself. Some think that ‘he’ in verse 11 is Almighty God, who will ‘speak to’ his people through a foreign invasion, but it seems simpler to understand it of the prophet himself." |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:51:02 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:45:25 2013. Context should always include chapter 28 verse 13, I forgot to add.And people really ought to translate Hebrew better. |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:55:06 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:51:02 2013. "The LORD speaks utter nonsense to them. That is why they will fall backwards. That is why they will be hurt, trapped, and captured." :-DOr in my NEB: "Now to them the word of the LORD will be harsh cries and raucous shouts, 'A little more here, a little there!'— and so, as they walk, they will stumble backwards, they will be injured, trapped and caught." |
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Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally) |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 18:55:44 2013, in response to Re: Atheism (3 in 10 take Bible literally), posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 18:51:02 2013. And people really ought to translate Hebrew better.Do you have any suggestions for better translation of Hebrew? |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 19:00:45 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Feb 19 17:20:11 2013. No, that's not the case at all. Remember who condemned tradition in the Gospels?Unless the RCC repents of stuff like Canon 29 of the Synod of Laodicea, they're heading down a very steep cliff. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 19:10:09 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 19:00:45 2013. "Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."? |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 19 19:13:04 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by kew gardens teleport on Tue Feb 19 19:10:09 2013. That's the one. Funny how they unilaterally declared that Christ has to be anathema from Christ. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Feb 19 22:14:17 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 15:03:32 2013. Ologism is a mental disorder.(I hopefully rehabilitated the phrase) |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 20 22:29:13 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 05:31:48 2013. LOL..so let me get this right..you say its so..That makes the word invalid. Funniest thing read so far. BRAVO..for your efforts..you do the work of the one who guides you magnificently..you WILL FAIL..but that does stop your Master,does it? |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 20 22:32:47 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 19 15:03:32 2013. denying the existence of GOD further demonstrates the degeneration of Man. his prideful lusting for power and the exposure of the humanist exploitation. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 20 23:54:37 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 20 22:29:13 2013. No free man has a master, whether real or imagined. You are a slave. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 21 00:20:21 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 20 23:54:37 2013. 
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 21 00:24:38 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 20 23:54:37 2013. You are correct..I AM A SLAVE to righteousness..to JUSTICE..to honor and unity. while you are a slave to greed..deception..lust..pride. You heap on the masses your version of "independence and freedom",yet shackle men with bondage of racism, classism and sexist dogmatic infiltration.. you fight against every notion that is "GOOD",Yet continue to push your HUMANISTIC version of GOOD. You and those like you are the true enemy of Man..a walking talking billboard of the faithless evil..crying to the masses,seducing the weak into glaring darkness. We see you..though you may hide in the darkness..we expose you and your evil to the eyes of the entire world. Sure..I'll be that slave..better to be in the bondage of the LIGHT..than the hellish bondage of your father. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 21 00:27:14 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 21 00:20:21 2013. heh...spiritually..he is dead.Too stupid to know what a true "slave "is. |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 21 00:44:56 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 21 00:27:14 2013. The preceding message was brought to you by the Church of Libertarian. :) |
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Re: Atheism |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Feb 21 00:54:19 2013, in response to Re: Atheism, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Feb 21 00:20:21 2013. No one is forced to do any of those things. |
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