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| Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 (324339) | |
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| (324343) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by Dan on Thu Jun 22 11:48:26 2017, in response to Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 02:21:45 2017. Here's what the 2A route looked like on the 1969 Manhattan Bus Map. It's in light green and hard to see on the pdf but it's there -Manhattan 1969 Bus Map |
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Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 13:17:18 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by Dan on Thu Jun 22 11:48:26 2017. I know about the 2A path - but that map was published after the creation of the Third/Lexington/Lenox M-101A (which is also in the same hard-to-see light green color). Would there have been any Manhattan bus maps from 1966 to '68 which had the 2A and the 2, and which path north of 110th (at which the 2A turned) each took? |
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Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by Dan on Thu Jun 22 14:28:08 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 13:17:18 2017. The 1969 map is the earliest MTA Manhattan Bus map I've ever seen, but there might be earlier maps out there. |
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Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 15:16:59 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by Dan on Thu Jun 22 14:28:08 2017. That's one reason why I'm wondering if there are people who have vintage NYC bus photos from the 1966-69 period that may shed light on what was what. |
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| (324356) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 19:28:35 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by Dan on Thu Jun 22 14:28:08 2017. 'andy', on other posts relating to bus service changes, has made observations on how there was no 'merging' of the two 2's in 1966, and cited the 1969 service change that led to M-101A's creation as proof; what would he think of that passage from Farnsworth Fowle's article? |
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| (324365) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by andy on Fri Jun 23 17:14:03 2017, in response to Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 02:21:45 2017. The reality is that before Jan. 14 1966 each #2 was a separate route, a legacy of their Fifth Ave. Coach or NYC Omnibus heritage.The one way pairing of Fifth and Madison created two separate routes both with #2 designation. One was the former FACO route and operated between 8th St./4th Ave. and 168th St/Broadway via 9th St., University Place, 14th St., 4th Ave./Park Ave. South, 25th St., Madison Ave., 110th St., 7th Ave., 155th St., Edgecombe Ave., 167th St. The other was the former NYCO route and operated between 8th St./4th Ave. and 146th St./Lenox Ave. The northbound route was the same as the ex-FACO route as far as 110th St. Beyond that, buses used Madison, 116th St., and Lenox. Southbound there was no confusion because both routes were the same on 5th Ave. from 110th St. to 8th St. Northbound there was confusion, so by the summer of 1966 the upper 7th Ave. route (ex-FACO) was designated 2A. As other recent posters have noted, these designations remained until March 1969, when the #2 5th-Madison-Lenox route was re-routed to Lexington (SB) and Third (NB) Avenues, and re-numbered as 101A. Eventually it became today's M102, and the 2A became today's M2. The M102 is actually the great grandson of the NYCO route #4, Lexington-116-Lenox, a legacy of when Lexington and Third were two ways before July 1960. |
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| (324367) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by andy on Fri Jun 23 18:48:35 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 19:28:35 2017. See my post from earlier today. Mr. Fowle's article was incorrect regarding the #2 routes. The remaining routes, because there was no number duplication, were easy to describe. South on Fifth, north on Madison.The amazing thing is today, 50+ years later, the Routes 1 2, 3, and 4 basically unchanged. #3 no longer has the Convent Ave. branch. The old #15 is now Q32 and uses Penn Sta as its south terminal instead of 23rd St. |
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| (324368) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Fri Jun 23 18:59:58 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by andy on Fri Jun 23 18:48:35 2017. I suspected that Mr. Fowle had gotten his wires crossed. How could he - and, by extension, Wikipedia - have thought that there had been a "Lenox Avenue branch" (#2) and "Seventh Avenue branch" (#2A)? |
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| (324369) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Fri Jun 23 19:31:17 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by andy on Fri Jun 23 17:14:03 2017. I figured Mr. Fowle wouldn't have known what he was writing about. (The Transit Museum in Brooklyn has illuminated maps of five boroughs that were in place in key TA and MaBSTOA offices as of 1968, and those two #2's and their start and end points no doubt would be there; it was awhile since I was last to the TM, and I'll have to look there to finally clear up this muddling-up once and for all - and also to see which depots handled what routes. Especially to set Wikipedia straight; they still insist that it was a "coupling," though there were a total of five Fifth and Madison routes [two ex-NYCO, three ex-FACCo] before the one-way conversions, and five after, and even with the ending sentence in the section marked "Extensions and Combinations.")Now, why would "Farnie" Fowle (who passed away last December at age 100), when he "reported" on the service changes, especially on the NYCO and FACCo 2's, have presumed the two routes had been "combined" into one "hybrid" route with two "branches" (NYCO 2's Lenox and FACCo 2/2A's Seventh Avenue) - and thinking (or at least implying by his descriptions) that NYCO's 2, southbound up to its turn to Fifth, ran a parallel route to FACCo's 2/2A through Edgecombe, 155th and Seventh, then turning east on 146th, south on Lenox and east on 116th to Fifth; and northbound turning west on 116th at Madison, then on to Lenox, 147th, Seventh, 155th, Edgecombe and 167th? What exactly was Mr. Fowle smoking when he came up with that route concoction? (I know, it's a rhetorical question.) That even he was confused by this may have explained that summer 1966 alpha suffix designation of FACCo's 2 as 2A, as much as everything else you'd mentioned. The irony about the 1969 rerouting of NYCO's 2 below 116th at Lenox to Third and Lexington as 101A, was that upon the discontinuance of NYCO's 4 (and the Lexington-only 3) in 1960, Fifth Avenue Coach Lines' Omnibus Division had extended their 1 and 2 routes to Lenox and 147th, with the 1 transitioning via 135th Street and the 2 via 116th. Thus the 1969 change came full circle. (Some eBay sellers have cut-up segments of 'batwings' side signs, one saying '2 - 5th & Madison via Lenox', the other reading '2A - 5th & Madison via Seventh Ave.' These would no doubt have been printed between the latter part of 1966 and early 1967. But I've not seen any pics of 101A in action with batwing side signs reading, '101A - 3rd-Lex-Lenox Aves.' - did any such roll signs, which would have been printed after 1969, even exist?) |
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| (324370) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by northshore on Fri Jun 23 22:06:35 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by andy on Fri Jun 23 18:48:35 2017. Rt 4 no longer runs on Riverside Drive. Now runs entirely on Broadway. |
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| (324521) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Fri Jun 30 09:11:56 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by andy on Fri Jun 23 17:14:03 2017. Perusing on eBay as I frequently do for bus-related memorabilia to get clues, I came across a c.1966-67 Manhattan bus and subway map put out by The Chase Manhattan Bank (misdated by the seller as 1960; but an illustration on the cover approximating the R38 subway car and one of the 1963-66 Fishbowls - to say nothing of the one-way paths of Fifth and Madison on the bus maps - tells the story of when it actually came out). Sure enough, on ex-NYCO 2, its northernmost terminus is shown as Lenox and 147th, right next to 1 and 7. (It appears, however, to have been prepared before ex-FACCo 2 had the 'A' suffix added on, as the map presents both 2's as one line with different "branches.") |
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| (325158) | |
Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Sep 4 08:18:25 2017, in response to Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by andy on Fri Jun 23 17:14:03 2017. I have, over the weekend, traversed the Transit Museum where they have a section with vintage bus dispatchers' maps for all five boroughs, for the purpose of straightening things out in terms of Manhattan bus routes. For Manhattan, they have one from April 1968, only 11 months before ex-NYCO 2 was discontinued and the 3rd-Lexington-Lenox 101A started up. (A Bronx map, with 42 routes from Bx-1 to Bx-38; Bx-40 to Bx-42; and Bx-49, was dated November 1967, while one from Brooklyn had an October 1967 date; a Queens map was somewhere between 1972 and 1974 [the 'M' logo shown, and express buses designated Q##X], while the one for Staten Island was after its 1975 borough name change from Richmond, given the 'S' prefix on all the regular, non-express buses [with the X## already in place].)From reading the said map, it would seem that only 2A and 3, both ex-FACCo, were the routes that, between 9th and 14th Streets, traveled west on 9th Street/Wanamaker Place, north on University Place and east on 14th Street towards Union Square East/Park Avenue South. That path only had those two routes highlighted. Apparently ex-NYCO 2, like 1, traveled straight north on Fourth Avenue up to 14th (only 1 was highlighted, with the route number in black type inside an outlined circle, but putting 2 and 2 together . . . ). But sure enough, The Times - and Wikipedia - were full of it with their supposed "hybridization" of the M2 with a "Lenox Avenue" and a "Seventh Avenue" branch (a la the Convent and St. Nicholas branches of the 3, or the 14's Avenue A and Avenue D branches). The 2 did indeed terminate at 147th and Lenox, alongside 1 and 7 (on termini, the routes were on white lettering inside a black square). On a tangent, on the southbound journey of the 1, their 8th Street-4th Avenue variant route ran down Broadway only to 4th Street where they ran east, and then north on 4th Ave. up to their said terminus - just as the 2 had prior to 1/14/66. As well, even then they had an alternate route for the 5 which carried on at Riverside Drive through 157th Street - showing that the old 19 route had been absorbed into the 5, in or after the '62 MaBSTOA takeover. The maps also mentioned which routes were assigned to which depots/garages (which may be of help with photos taken prior to the c.1971 opening of the Hudson Pier depot, in terms of identifying which buses plying certain routes came from where). As of April 1968, the Manhattan itinerary was as follows (though, curiously, I did not see the 21 [Houston Street-Avenue C] on that list), all MaBSTOA except where noted: - 146th Street (101 West 146th Street) - 1, 2, 2A, 7, 10 (8th Ave.-Central Park West) - 132nd Street (605 West 132nd Street) - 3, 4, 5, 11; probably also the phantom 10 Broadway route - Amsterdam (1381 Amsterdam Avenue) - Bx-30, M-100, M-104 - 126th Street (NYCTA Manhattan Bus Division, 2460 Second Avenue) - M-1 (Madison-Chambers), M-3 (49th-50th Streets), M-7 (65th Street), M-11 (York Avenue), M-15 (1st-2nd Avenues) - 100th Street (1550 Lexington Avenue) - 6 (72nd Street Crosstown; designated 6X - such designation only on these dispatchers' maps), 17, 18, 19, 20 (116th Street Crosstown), M-101, M-107, TB (after 1969, M-101A, later M102, would be based here) - 54th Street (806 Ninth Avenue) - 6 (Broadway/7th/6th Ave.), 13, 15 (5th/Madison/Queensboro Bridge/Jackson Heights), 15 (23rd Street Crosstown; designated 15X), 16 (Elmhurst Crosstown), 16 (34th Street Crosstown; designated 16X), 20 (57th Street Crosstown), M-103, M-106 - 12th Street (405 East 11th Street) - 12, 14 (both Avenue A and Avenue D branches); probably also 21? (this depot closed around 1971 when Hudson Pier depot opened) Now would anyone know at what point the 4's route towards Penn Station started turning west at 34th Street rather than 33rd as was shown on the '68 map? |
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Re: Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969 |
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Posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 9 19:43:45 2018, in response to Question on Fifth / Madison 2 and 2A Routes, 1966-1969, posted by W.B. on Thu Jun 22 02:21:45 2017. Sorry about beating a dead horse (and equally sorry for the analogy, given the recent Belmont Stakes and Justified's Triple Crown triumph), but I have been leafing through snippets in Google Books of 1962-67 "Proceedings of the Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority - Relating to Matters Other Than Operation and Control," and from what I have been gauging (in my efforts to sift through key route changes for future Almanacs), apparently MaBSTOA, at the point Fifth and Madison each became one-way, had merged the FACCo and NYCO 2's into one singular route with two branches - a Seventh Avenue branch (designated '2A') that traveled all the way to 168th Street and Broadway after weaving through Seventh and Edgecombe Avenues, and a Lenox Avenue branch that went no further than 146th/147th Street on Lenox. (In the vein of characterizing the two branches of the 14th Street Crosstown as 14A and 14D, and at the onset of their ministration of the FACL/Surface Transit network, two branches of the 3 with the Convent Avenue branch referred to [but not on roll signs] as '3A' while the St. Nicholas branch maintained the 3 moniker.) Published minutes maintain that the total route mileage of the "Seventh Avenue branch" was about 2 or so miles more than that of the "Lenox Avenue branch," and apparently more popular (2A buses during rush hours came every four minutes, vs. every six minutes for the 2). Hence Times writer Fowle was quoting MaBSTOA itself when citing the route description as "Fifth and Madison Avenues via Seventh and Lenox Avenues." It may also explain how and why 2 and 2A wound up both stationed at the 146th Street bus depot (today, Mother Hale) when the one-way conversions took effect.The Lenox branch, as they referred to 2, was doomed as early as July 1967, when they first floated the idea of eliminating that route (while retaining the Fifth-Madison-Seventh 2A which became M2 during the big route numbering changes in 1974) and taking the 116th-to Lenox-at-147th part of the route and making a new branch of the M-101 Third and Lexington Avenues line with it. That it took a year and eight months to finally follow through (and start up the Third-Lexington-Lenox M-101A, today's M102) sounds like there was some kind of community opposition that gummed up the works - that, and the matter of there being no free transfers due to the 1962 FACL-TWU agreement that preceded the big strike that led to the MaBSTOA takeover. |
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