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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 18:35:39 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 28 17:08:45 2015. My point was the SIR trains are fairly reliable, the R's reliability is a throwback to the 80's. Yet the farebox recovery of the R I am sure must be better than the SIR. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:36:21 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:38:10 2015. And those employees don't currently exist? Installing 3-4 MVMs is going to require hiring more? And the installation is a one time cost, so the price tag gets spread over its useful life |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:39:53 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:39:53 2015. Perhaps you could enlighten me. You already told me the one time installation cost. What is the lifespan of an MVM? And you also already tried to tell me that folks need to be hired to maintain it, but you forget that these people already exist. Even if the installation of 3-4 MVMs resulted in the need of hiring an additional worker, the cost gets diluted with the rest of the system since that employees role isn't restricted to just that one MVM (or bank of MVMs) |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:42:08 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:42:45 2015. Valid point, but how many of them are available to be shifted to Q70 service? Would it dictate ordering a new fleet? I can flip your argument about purchasing and maintenance cost back on you as I'd imagine the cost to purchase and maintain a bus is far more than that of an MVM |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:44:47 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:41:32 2015. Present any facts you have please. I'd love to be proved wrong |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:47:57 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:39:24 2015. Does that mean it can't be done? The technology seems to exist for CitiBike to accept credit cards at outdoor kiosks. I wonder what the cost of that is. Also, it could be done ala SBS, which has a plethora of examples of outdoor kiosks at bus stops. Plus it allows boarding through all doors while still allowing a free transfer |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 28 19:29:45 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 28 14:39:24 2015. What about the Eltingville Transit Center? (I'm not sure, but are there some at 165th Street in Jamaica as well?) |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Nov 28 21:56:03 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 11:00:34 2015. The current MVMs are obsolete. New fare payment system coming in 5 to 10 years hopefully. So look for minimimal expansion. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Nov 29 10:09:22 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Terrapin Station on Sat Nov 28 21:56:03 2015. Unless it's a regional fare card with the capability of adding other agencies further down the line, all it's going to be is Metrocard V2.0 |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 29 10:16:30 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Nov 24 23:23:21 2015. Sorry. I meant to say increase in speed due to faster loading. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:06:23 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:39:53 2015. Just as you wish to send LIRR trains to Linden, and build flyover junction there to carry out your scheme, you do not know much about cost.You also said you want to put up MVM's at every bus stop. These are much like ATM machines, not soda machines. Even banks are not casual about putting up these things everywhere. I don't know the life span of a TVM, but people "already exist" are not exactly sitting around doing nothing. More manhours would have to be added, and you haven't though of it. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:07:41 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:44:47 2015. Machines that count heads do not have moving parts, do not accept money, and do not dispense money. If you can't tell the difference between the two, you are hopeless. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:09:25 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:42:08 2015. The TA is constantly getting new buses. You did not go nuts when the Q10 got Artics. I don't know why you are about the Q70. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 29 11:10:06 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Nov 29 10:09:22 2015. Nope. It's going to be RFID/Credit Card/Smartphone-based. Hopefully. Regional compatibility desired but not required. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:12:19 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:47:57 2015. It can be done, there is a cost, but you don't know much about costs, and would be out in the weather on the sidewalk, and be far more prone to break down.The TA can't even justify pay boxes for the so-called SBS S79. I don't know what makes you think MVM can pop up like weeds on the Q70. CitiBike is a financial basket case. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 29 11:12:42 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Nov 29 10:16:30 2015. The faster speed is not the attraction. The attraction is it's easier to ride for people who aren't familiar with the fare system. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:14:29 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Nov 28 18:36:21 2015. Yes of course. MVM's never ever break down. And the repair men are sitting around getting paid doing nothing like the Maytag repairman with his Bassett Hound just waiting to be sent out for a call. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:15:35 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Nov 29 10:09:22 2015. No one is going to invest in 1970's technology of MC any more. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sun Nov 29 18:40:26 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:07:41 2015. MVMs will collect revenue far in excess of all related maintenance costs for that unit. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sun Nov 29 18:42:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:12:19 2015. The S79 SBS was reduced in scale from the original plan. |
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| (308646) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Nov 29 19:37:41 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:12:19 2015. It wasn't about the cost. It was about the fact that the S79 is less frequent than the other SBS routes, so the time penalty for missing a bus because you were fumbling around with your MetroCard to get a ticket is much greater. Aside from that, most S79 stops don't see the heavy passenger activity that would result in much time savings from off-board fare payment. |
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| (308649) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Nov 29 20:27:38 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:12:19 2015. That's funny, you're the one suggesting $451k/year is a non-issue and backing it up with cost claims for which you've provided no supporting information (actual dollar amounts or sources), which leaves me with no choice but to take your statements as simply just your personal opinion or perception. I don't always have the answer or facts to back it up, but I at least know to ask the question rather than make an unsupported statement.With regards to the placement of the machines, there are already covered shelters at at least a couple of the bus stops at LGA (possibly all of them but I'm not certain). If the elements are really an issue, then set up a shelter at the other stops as well (how much does it cost to place a bus shelter? Since the airport is PA property, would PA have to approve/build them? Does PA allow ads at those shelters since ad revenue could cover the cost of placement). Also, could a shelter be placed at Woodside? Does the Q70 pick up inside the Jackson Hts terminal or curbside? Is there space for one there? Or is any of this even an issue since all of the SBS machines are already out in the elements and seem to be doing fine. And how many stops are S79 SBS vs the Q70? But I don't know anything about costs... |
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| (308650) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Nov 29 21:43:38 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:07:41 2015. You certainly make a valid point there. I can admit when I'm [probably] wrong (again, I'd like to see the actual numbers, but your point is certainly valid). The other consideration is how the buses on the Q70 are used. Does the Q70 have its own assigned fleet? If not, then you'd have to install the technology on all of the buses at any garage servicing the Q70. What is the cost of installation per bus vs the cost per installation of each MVM (or SBS machine).And the installation and maintenance of passenger counters vs MVMs is still only a piece of the bigger problem. Is making the service free going to bring in enough riders to cover the cost of losing that 15% of revenue AND the cost of any additional service needed to handle the extra ridership? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 29 22:51:04 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Nov 29 21:43:38 2015. I'd like to draw a parallel to the MBTA silver line... it is free from the airport and that includes a free transfer to the Red Line. I'm guessing they ran the numbers and determined the speed of boarding passengers was more important than collecting the fare (maybe it allows them to run the route with one fewer bus?). |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Sun Nov 29 23:53:59 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 29 22:51:04 2015. The Silver Line policy doesn't seem right. Several years ago I gave up on commercial aviation, and so on my most recent international journey to Boston, I arrived at the Black Falcon terminal. It, too, is a terminal for the Silver Line. Why shouldn't passengers arriving by sea also have the same privilege as passengers arriving by air? There are no ticket machines at the Black Falcon terminal, and exact fare is required on the Silver Line (especially onerous for passengers arriving from international ports given the inconvenience of first having to exchange foreign currency into U.S. coins). |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Nov 30 00:01:09 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BusMgr on Sun Nov 29 23:53:59 2015. Several years ago I gave up on commercial aviationHey, do you know Mr. LuchAAA? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 10:39:46 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:09:25 2015. Did you see me contribute in any way about the Q10 getting artics? I took no part in that conversation whatsoever. I'm just asking a valid question. Can artics be shifted away from other routes to run on the Q70 or is that going to require purchasing new buses? Is the additional capacity and subsequent ridership made available by the artics going to cover that 15% revenue loss? Even with the ridership increase, there's still going to be some % that is not paying to connect to NYCT. Or are they going to have to add more runs to zero out that 15% revenue loss? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 10:42:55 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 29 22:51:04 2015. Perhaps for them yes, but what about here? Would free boarding allow an increase in speed to the point that there could be a bus taken off the line? Does taking 1 bus off the line equate to a savings of $451K/year (the value of that 15% of revenue that would be lost)? That could be a very good argument for free boarding if it were all true |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 11:11:02 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:06:23 2015. Thank you for bringing a much more cost heavy and unrelated topic into this conversation. Not sure what your thought process was behind that move but bravo, you've made no sense once again. Fair enough though, I misrepresented the number of MVMs going up. How many stops is the Q70? Woodside-61st, 74th-Roosevelt, and how many at the airport? Again, I'm open to being proven wrong. If the numbers all add up to equate that 15% revenue loss, then by all means, make it free. But until you can provide me with what the actual cost (installation, maintenance, manpower vs 15% loss + cost of additional trips), I'd be irresponsible to acknowledge it as a feasible idea. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 11:12:04 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 29 11:12:42 2015. It could be a valid benefit though if it's fast enough to allow them to take one bus off the line |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 11:13:02 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Sun Nov 29 11:14:29 2015. I take your sarcasm as an inability to answer my question |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Nov 30 12:28:01 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Wed Nov 25 17:58:40 2015. Maybe it will be more clear to passengers. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Nov 30 12:44:17 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Nov 29 11:12:42 2015. That would only be true for the trip leaving LaGuardia not the trip to it. And how significant it would be is debatable. People don't board a free bus just because it is free.They have to plan their entire trip before they board. That means someone from out of town going to Manhattan will still choose a taxi unless he knows beforehand where the subway that the bus takes him to will go and if he has suitcases, that the transfers are not inconvenient or would require the use of stairways or long passageways. All this would have to be clearly spelled out at the airport with easy to read maps. It s not as simple as just having a free bus to attract new passengers. The attraction of a free bus applies mostly to those with a destination of Jackson Heights and how many would fit into that category? Not many. So the deterrent of not being familar with the fare system by having a pocketful of quarters available, would be to have MVM machines at te airport and clear and many maps or some sort of interactive device where questions could be asked and answered, not a free fare. As I said, the main attraction of a free fare would be a quicker service by reduced boarding times. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 30 18:03:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 11:13:02 2015. It has already been answered. More machine means more man hours and more payroll. I would not have to be sarcastic if you were capable of thinking about costs. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 30 18:07:23 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 10:39:46 2015. None of us know the answer to those questions. It requires analysis. The dispatcher s can allocate artic and 40' buses on a whim. Not every frequency running now with an artic requires an artic. It's called "resourse allocation". But, unlike you, I am not going to reject the proposal out of hand simply out of 15% loss of current revenue without looking at new revenue generated. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 30 18:10:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Nov 29 20:27:38 2015. I did not say it is a non-issue. I told you to look at all costs and revenue involved. But all you can seem to do is focus on the 15%. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 30 18:15:57 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Nov 30 12:44:17 2015. For the 40 minute run at 12 minute intervals, it looks like 4 buses cover it with a 4 minute break at Woodside. If they can knock 5 minutes off without tourists fumbling for change and loading through the back door, they'd recover from delays more quickly, though not enough to run the service with one less bus. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Nov 30 21:23:41 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 30 10:42:55 2015. The Silver Line has two rear doors, so the benefits of not taking fares are probably 3x-4x faster boarding than a single door (three doors for entry and none of them waiting for tourists fumbling for cash / to run to the first door). A standard 40' low floor transit bus would probably see at most 2x faster boarding... so it may not be as worthwhile in this case.Still the free ride to a subway station may increase ridership as well. I'll give the example of what happened to me in Houston - they have a day pass but there was no way to buy one at the airport. If that first bus were free to get into downtown (where I could then go to one of the retailers) I would have gone for the bus. Instead I rented a car (because the cost of renting a car for two days was less than the cost of a cab to downtown). I can't be the only person in the world who has been on the fence between bus / other form of transit. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 30 23:27:17 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Nov 30 21:23:41 2015. Good point. The last thing a newcomer to a city wants at the airport is to figure out how to get the fare media. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Dec 1 09:08:02 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 30 23:27:17 2015. I always look for the option to order the fare media in advance. WMATA sent me SmarTrip cards without any shipping fees IIRC.But yes I agree. You should be able to easily get hold of fare media upon arrival in a city, and naturally that would mean having it easy to find at airports. |
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