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| (308380) | |
Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 09:13:06 2015 Everything can't be free |
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| (308381) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Nov 23 09:27:26 2015, in response to Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 09:13:06 2015. Thousands of additional flyers would use it if it were free…"Thousands of flyers" apparently don't know about the free transfer put on every MetroCard fare. I will say though, the fare collection system in place at LGA only works well for people who already have a MetroCard. Signs directing people to MetroCard sales points should be more prominent. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 12:25:00 2015, in response to Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 09:13:06 2015. I thought it was dumb too at first, but after reading the actual Riders Alliance report - not so much.http://www.ridersny.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/LGA-report-web-version.pdf Making the Q70 free would eliminate the need for arriving travelers to figure out how to get a Metrocard to pay for the bus. They'd just be able to get on, paying instead upon transfer at the subway station. Since 85% of Q70 riders transfer to the subway, there would be minimal revenue loss to MTA, which could be made up by increased ridership from greater ease of use and marketing as a "free shuttle to subway." Also, as they point out, the signage at LGA for the Q70 is abominable. There is no clear indication that the Q70 transfers to the 7 subway to Manhattan. The Q70 signs just read "Queens." |
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| (308383) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Nov 23 12:30:04 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 12:25:00 2015. Here’s a separate issue: Why not allow bus transfers to work on the subway? This would solve a lot of the problem. There is no technical reason why they can’t. |
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| (308384) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 23 12:58:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 12:25:00 2015. What about installing MVMs at the bus stops at LGA (or in the terminals)? Or allowing bus transfers to work onto the subway? |
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| (308385) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Nov 23 13:16:31 2015, in response to Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 09:13:06 2015. Did this start as promised?3-4 trips/day to/from EWR 7 days per week will start in September [2015]. |
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| (308386) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Nov 23 14:56:54 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 12:25:00 2015. Well the report certainly convinced me. Also as a free shuttle bus passengers can enter through all doors and speed up service. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 15:11:46 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Nov 23 09:27:26 2015. In the case of passengers traveling between LGA and points in eastern Queens, Nassau, and Suffolk, there is no free transfer between the Q70 and the LIRR. |
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| (308388) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 15:15:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Nov 23 12:30:04 2015. Indeed, it is not a technical restraint, but rather a policy restraint. When the MetroCard system was introduced several years ago, a policy decision was made to not allow free cash fare transfers between buses and subway trains in order to promote the acquisition and use of MetroCards. Arguably, that goal has been met, and it likely would not be undone were free cash fare transfers to be allowed between buses and subway trains today. But I would not expect MTA policy makers to review this issue today absent any political pushing. |
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| (308389) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 15:19:09 2015, in response to Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 09:13:06 2015. The question is whether or not the bus would actually be "free." To the extent that a no-fare Q70 simply moves the point of fare payment from the bus to the subway station, then there is no free lunch. What needs to be looked at is how many fares would actually be lost by removing fareboxes. Presumably, that would include passengers transferring to and from the LIRR, those people going to and from the airport who live or work in Woodside or Jackson Heights, and those people who transfer to an automobile at Woodside or Jackson Heights (being picked up or dropped off by a friend, family members, or commercial car service). |
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| (308391) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 16:04:59 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Nov 23 12:58:13 2015. I believe there are MVMs at LGA. Still a hassle for out-of-towners just getting off a plane. |
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| (308392) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 16:05:17 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Nov 23 14:56:54 2015. Also true! |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 16:06:44 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 15:19:09 2015. The report addresses this. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by B1bus on Mon Nov 23 17:19:01 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Nov 23 12:30:04 2015. That is how people transfered from the C to the S when metrocard trnasfer first was introduced. A specially encoded bus transfer good for 24 minutes issued from the booth with 9999 as the bus route. |
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| (308395) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 23 17:50:39 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 15:19:09 2015. Does anyone know what percentage of Q70 passengers transfer to the subway ?If it is a very high percentage, the bus is for all practical purposes free, so I don't see what the big deal is. |
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| (308396) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 18:06:55 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 23 17:50:39 2015. The report I cited states that 85% tfr to the subway. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 21:33:40 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 23 17:50:39 2015. Here is what the big deal is:The ability of the MTA to provide lower fares for frequent users is partially offset by infrequent users paying more. If we are not able to collect $2.50-2.75 from anyone, then everyone's fare has to go up. People flying in to an airport can afford to spend the $2.75 to get on the bus and we should make it easier for them to spend the money. There is no such thing as free. This is why the MTA is so resistant to add new service. No one ever wants to pay for it or put in more money. The bus cost $200/hour to operate. People will pay for better service, so make the service better or people will spring for Uber. |
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| (308402) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 21:37:12 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 16:04:59 2015. It is not so much the hassle of using the machine--since a fare-free Q70 would simply move the hassle from the airport to the subway station in Jackson Heights--so much as it is the hassle of locating the machines at the airport. Ideally, they would be located at the airport bus stops, but I don't recall them being located there. |
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| (308404) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 21:46:14 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Nov 23 14:56:54 2015. The group has some good points, and it is worth looking into. But when I looked at the composition of the group producing the report, they seem to be all left-wing activists, rather than a broad political spectrum, leading me to question if there's something below the surface here. |
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| (308408) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Nov 24 01:00:21 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 21:46:14 2015. But when I looked at the composition of the group producing the report, they seem to be all left-wing activists, rather than a broad political spectrum, leading me to question if there's something below the surface here.Left-wing activists tend to have problems with market segmentation. Sometimes, it is equated with class warfare. For example, part of the Metro-North/LIRR fare reduction proposal centers around class issues and perceived discrimination by commuter railroads. It is important to recognize who uses which buses. The M60's improvements were not driven by poor people. The splitting of the Q33's airport segment into the Q70 is not being driven by poor people. It is being driven by the fact that airport customers can pay and are willing to pay for quality service. The Q70 is a massive improvement in service quality for airport customers over the Q33. So, the Q70 should not be run as a free shuttle bus. If this happens, the ridership will outstrip the resources to run it. Remember when this happened to the private bus lines when the free transfer was introduced. All of a sudden, ridership on the locals exploded and DEGRADED rush hour service quality because the city did not pump in the additional money to run more buses. When people want to propose bus service changes, remember that it cost $200/hour to run an MTA bus. Use the money wisely. |
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| (308409) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Nov 24 01:28:57 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BusMgr on Mon Nov 23 15:11:46 2015. The LIRR should offer Airport Getaway deals, the way they offer beach and other getaway deals. |
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| (308420) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Nov 24 12:33:56 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Mon Nov 23 16:04:59 2015. How? As BusMgr pointed out, you're just moving the hassle to the subway station. When I landed at Zurich, I still had to buy a train ticket at the airport before getting on the train. |
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| (308423) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Nov 24 12:40:38 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 21:33:40 2015. Precisely! If 85% of Q70 riders are connecting to the subway, and the route is made fare-free, then what is the actual dollar amount lost on that 15%? How does that amount get covered? |
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| (308425) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 12:54:11 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Nov 24 12:40:38 2015. Right.Riders Alliance claims that the revenue will be made up by encouraging new riders. But if the new riders are not paying anything, how is the revenue being made up? Rider's Alliance is making no sense. |
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| (308426) | |
Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Nov 24 13:33:54 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 12:54:11 2015. SMH. Not all the new riders are paying nothing. Something like 85% of the new riders will pay the fare at the subway. It just moves the collection point. It makes complete sense. Whether or not it makes complete financial sense depends on many things, such as how many new riders it will attract, and if the proportion will remain at 85/15. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Nov 24 15:53:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Nov 24 12:40:38 2015. IIRC, there's about 3000 riders a day on the Q70. For simplicity's sake, let's assume the remaining 15% pay the full $2.75. So that's $450 riders, or approximately $1200 a day lost. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Nov 24 15:55:08 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 12:54:11 2015. Theoretically, if the hassle of getting a MetroCard at the airport is causing people to just say "screw it" and take a taxi or one of those $12-$15 airport buses, then getting those people to use transit would yield additional revenue. Though I don't understand why they can't just have MVMs near the buses stops (assuming that's not the case already) |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Nov 24 15:57:28 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Nov 24 15:55:08 2015. The Port Authority's stance is that anything that improves transit to LaGuardia is bad because "the airport is at capacity." |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:14:51 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 12:54:11 2015. Uh, by the new riders paying for the transfer to the subway, obviously. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:16:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Nov 24 15:53:13 2015. But if the "free" bus gets 450 new riders to use it and change to the subway, that loss is recovered. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:17:30 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Nov 24 12:33:56 2015. It's much easier finding a machine at the entrance to a subway station that somewhere in a huge air terminal. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:20:04 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Tue Nov 24 01:00:21 2015. "So, the Q70 should not be run as a free shuttle bus. If this happens, the ridership will outstrip the resources to run it."You just made the case for the free proposal. If the number of riders balloons, more buses can be added, and the new riders will cover the extra cost by increased payment of subway fares on transfer. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Nov 24 17:35:45 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:17:30 2015. Not to mention there is much more help at Roosevelt Ave station. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 24 17:44:38 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Nov 24 15:53:13 2015. I say "do it". The revenue loss is minimal, assuming no hike in ridership, which is also unlikely. The MTA would then piss of the Port Authority and encourages airport public transit, which kills 2 birds with 1 stone. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 24 17:55:14 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Nov 24 01:28:57 2015. They do for McArthur, with Colonial Taxi, the same outfit they use for Sayville Ferry packages. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 24 18:03:42 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Tue Nov 24 01:00:21 2015. You mean it might be "too successful" ?Your analogy when the 2 fare zone and Metrocard was introduced is not valid. A free transfer already exists on the Q70, so ridership could increase somewhat, but not explode. Since 85% are getting on the subway, the revenue loss is minimal, the willingness to pay is irrelevant, the fare collection point is merely shifted into a subway station, so the cost of running the bus is also irrelevant. We can also load the bus faster at Woodside, Jackson Hts, and at the Airport to speed it up some more. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 18:54:13 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Nov 24 13:33:54 2015. Let's say you are correct and 85% of the new riders will pay at the subway. The service will have to be much more attractive to attract any new riders because the riders aren't getting a break with the fare. Will the reduction in speed be that attractive to attract many new riders? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 18:58:31 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Nov 24 15:53:13 2015. That assumes the existing levels of service can handle the new riders. As the MTA correctly pointed out, if it causes service to have to be added, then the loss is higher since they have to pay more bus drivers which is about 85% of the cost if operating service. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Nov 24 19:13:51 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 18:58:31 2015. They need to stop the bunching. Maybe they need bus lanes throughout the airport. One day I was returning from a trip and I had just missed a Q70, the next one took like 30 mins to get to my terminal. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Nov 24 20:06:09 2015, in response to Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 09:13:06 2015. Can they change the Q70 Display to say "7EFMR Subway & LIRR"? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Nov 24 23:23:21 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Nov 24 18:54:13 2015. Reduction in speed? What are you talking about??? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 03:10:42 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:20:04 2015. No, I did not.I made the case for better placed MVMs near the bus stops. The revenue that the Q70 generates needs to be allocated to the route. If the Q70 is free, then 74 Street gains that ridership and we can't track where it is from cheaply. That makes measuring the impact of service changes harder to achieve. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Nov 25 08:50:37 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 03:10:42 2015. But did you start your EWR bus service??????????????????Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus (308385) |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 25 11:19:42 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 03:10:42 2015. Less ability to track is a weak argument. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 12:15:43 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Nov 25 08:50:37 2015. Yes I did. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 12:18:44 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 25 11:19:42 2015. If you don't understand how the network works, then you would not understand why this matters. |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Nov 25 13:33:26 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Wed Nov 25 12:15:43 2015. Awesome! How have you advertised it? |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Wed Nov 25 13:59:06 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 24 17:16:13 2015. You need more than that because of the increased number of buses, drivers, etc. to handle the additional passengers |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Nov 25 14:55:46 2015, in response to Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by mtk52983 on Wed Nov 25 13:59:06 2015. Artic it up |
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Re: Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Wed Nov 25 17:35:08 2015, in response to Transit advocates to propose free LaGuardia shuttle bus, posted by JAzumah on Mon Nov 23 09:13:06 2015. After free schooling and free healthcare, why not? Heck, I go on one shopping site where it's just trolls complaining that amazon ships for "free"(yea right).The question is, how do we pretend it will be free? Should you subsidize them coming to your fair city? Or shall it be added as a surcharge onto airplane tickets? Which of course, the surcharge will cost a lot more than bus fare would. |
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