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| (298139) | |
The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 24 00:02:11 2014 Sheepsheadbites Blog |
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| (298140) | |
Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Sep 24 00:12:24 2014, in response to The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 24 00:02:11 2014. tl;dr |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 30 17:28:57 2014, in response to The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 24 00:02:11 2014. Part 2 |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 30 17:41:25 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 30 17:28:57 2014. If you are the one behind the B57 farce, you did me no favors.Show me another route which has to enter and leave downtown Brooklyn in order to get to its' destination. The route has very poor service reliability due to all the traffic, navigating Smith St. is a disaster mostly thanks to the traffic light at Atlantic Ave. You solved one problem in splitting the B61 yet created a new one with all these lenghtenings of the B57. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 30 19:33:45 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 30 17:41:25 2014. I was not responsible for it. I just stated I thought of it 40 years before they did. Service reliability is a separate issue from routing. One traffic light should not be a reason to not combine routes.The purpose of through routing is to reduce the number of transfers. Through routing for the B61 did not make sense because many through riders could already take the G train for that trip. There is no subway however that duplicates the 57 / 75 combination. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 30 19:53:11 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 30 19:33:45 2014. If you route a bus along heavily trafficed streets of course it will effect service reliability if you don't give it sufficient running time.I rode the B57 daily till my retirement. I also worked the G train where I saw and experienced traffic on Smith St., the alternate route of the BQE from the Battery Tunnel to downtown Brooklyn. Most times traffic was backed up from Carroll St. all the way to the short green light cycle at Atlantic Ave. Yes, one light! Check it out someday! |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 30 21:52:06 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 30 17:41:25 2014. True indeed.The B57 should have been the very Last bus route considered for extension. It can Never measure up to the service levels the 75 had...which should be restored. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 30 21:55:11 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 30 19:33:45 2014. 57/75 is a SERVICE CUT.It should be returned back to the way it was. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by TERrapin staTion on Wed Oct 1 08:40:56 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 30 19:33:45 2014. I just stated I thought of it 40 years before they did.And they're saying that like almost all of your ideas, IT WAS A BAD IDEA. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 09:38:39 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Sep 30 19:53:11 2014. I am not doubting what you are saying. My point is that there are ways to fix those problems like changing the cycle at that light and making sure the route has enough running time. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 09:47:29 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 30 21:55:11 2014. How was it a service cut? It was just a combination of two routes. I believe, however it was done in two stages like the splitting of the 61. For a time after the 57 was extended to Downtown Brooklyn, there was overlap between the 57 and 75. From that point of view it was a service cut. The MTA can't make comprehensive changes, so they do it in small stages which is unnecessary.It is better when bus routes don't totally duplicate subway lines like the 75 used to do. The current routing of the 61 and 57 gives passengers more options through less transferring. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 09:48:26 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Edwards! on Tue Sep 30 21:52:06 2014. Then service shoud be increased if needed. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 09:50:25 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by TERrapin staTion on Wed Oct 1 08:40:56 2014. Why don't you speak to the thousands of satisfied B11 and B1 customers who no longer need three or four buses to make a trip? |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Oct 1 12:42:23 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 09:50:25 2014. Not me, them. They are the ones claiming it was a bad idea to combine those two routes. I don't have any personal knowledge of the issue. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Oct 1 13:00:23 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Sep 30 19:33:45 2014. You mean the old B61, right? (Court Square - Red Hook) Because with the current B61, that whole area along Columbia Street, and over in Red Hook is very far from the (G), and under the old routing, they would have to take the B61-B77-B75 (or B61-B77-(G)) |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 1 13:23:26 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Oct 1 12:42:23 2014. Are you talking about the B57 or the B1/B11? |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 13:40:41 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 1 13:23:26 2014. He means the 57 and 75. But he also said most of my other ideas are also bad, so I questioned him about the B11 extension and the creation of the B1. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 13:41:32 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Oct 1 13:00:23 2014. Yes of course I was talking about the old B61. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by terRAPIN sTaTiOn on Wed Oct 1 13:44:05 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 13:40:41 2014. Correct, I think. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by terRAPIN sTaTiOn on Wed Oct 1 13:44:24 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 1 13:23:26 2014. The one Bill was talking about. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 1 13:46:05 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 09:48:26 2014. Then it should be increased... the 57 has worst headway ever..forget about catching on e during the late evening. |
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| (298447) | |
Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Wed Oct 1 13:56:38 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 1 13:46:05 2014. And missing pull outs."What the heck, it's only one trip anyway, they won't miss it" seems to be the motto. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Wed Oct 1 14:18:27 2014, in response to The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 24 00:02:11 2014. These services have increased the need to transfer, and in some instances the need to pay a double fare or make a more indirect trip to avoid it. (Only one bus-subway transfer is allowed or one transfer between buses in virtually all cases.) I have also discussed how this policy could be changed to be more fair.Please explain - - I can travel from anywhere in Staten Island to the ferry and transfer again to the subway at certain nearby stations. Similarly, I actually have many more options when Metrocard was introduced. Over time, the Metrocard use and free transfers expanded to Long Island (now NICE) and Beel line buses. I can take any bus from White Plains to a feeder subway connection in the Bronx for $2.50. Likewise, I can do the same from Hicksville to Jamaica or Flushing on the N22 and N20, respectively. Prior to the free transfers, most outer neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens were 2 fare zones, let alone the 'burbs of Westchester and Long Island. The Metrocard also allows creativity in making "single fare" round trips for simple errands of quick stops, such as taking the 2 train from Gun Hill to East 149th Street/3rd Ave then getting the Bx41 bus back up before the 2 hour limit expires. You didnt have that luxury when usinging those blue or orange bus transfers. |
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| (298455) | |
Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Wed Oct 1 16:50:10 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Wed Oct 1 14:18:27 2014. He's talking about the limited and SBS services (especially the SBS services). In many cases, the stops are spaced far enough apart that some people have no access to the SBS, and are forced to take the local if they want access to it (for instance, those living near Nostrand & Avenue R). And then if they want to make a second transfer on top of that, they have to pay a second fare (assuming they don't have an unlimited).The issue is that the way the sentence is worded implies that we'd be better off having all-local service on every line, when that clearly isn't the case. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 17:16:35 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Wed Oct 1 14:18:27 2014. Checkmate is correct. You shouldn't be deprived of using a Limited or SBS bus because it would be cheaper to just stay on the local because you need a transfer to a third bus which is rarely allowed.Additiionally, a short trip may require three buses and two fares. There are also instances when a bus subway bus trip would be much quicker than just two buses but costs an additional fare and requires the MTA to put on additional bus service as well. The fact that you can use MetroCards for certain round trips is technically fare evasion, since it really is not permitted. However the programming involved to prevent it is too complicated so it is de facto allowed. So you really shouldn't be giving the MTA credit for something riders can creatively do when it is not intended. I'm sure the MTA is aware of it happening but may be underestimating its effect on revenue since they have no way to tell since MetroCard does not know in which stop you are getting off at to know if you are doubling back. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 1 21:11:13 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Wed Oct 1 13:56:38 2014. Yup... which is why,after waiting one hour for a bus a few days ago..,I gave up on it. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by TerrApin StatiON on Wed Oct 1 22:00:39 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Edwards! on Wed Oct 1 21:11:13 2014. LOL, you waited a whole hour?!?!?! What about BusTime? |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Wed Oct 1 22:57:39 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by TerrApin StatiON on Wed Oct 1 22:00:39 2014. That's obvious |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by MTA T on Thu Oct 2 00:05:01 2014, in response to The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 24 00:02:11 2014. Is it me or is Whineburg programmed to respond to every single BrooklynBus post lol. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Oct 2 09:18:03 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by MTA T on Thu Oct 2 00:05:01 2014. Don't know how to answer that one. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Oct 2 09:24:21 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by TerrApin StatiON on Wed Oct 1 22:00:39 2014. When I need to take the B57 from home I 'm getting on at the first stop. With pull outs quite often B57's pull out late because they do not match the posted schedule at 61/Flushing.Bus Time is not in effect till the b/o sets his sign. Buses pull out of the depot from this end. On any route if you are getting on a bus from the pull out end toward the beginning of the route, Bus Time doesn't help. Checking arriving buses and assuming they'll make another trip is wrong because B57's only make 1 or 2 trips at a time due to interlining, lunch time or finishing time. I've sent an Email to NYCT and the canned response I got was "We'll pay more attention to the route". |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Thu Oct 2 13:27:54 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Oct 1 17:16:35 2014. The fact that you can use MetroCards for certain round trips is technically fare evasion, since it really is not permitted.WAAR! Where does it say in 21 NYCRR, Chapter XXI, Part 1050. rules of conduct that the use of a (unaltered, non-forged) Metrocard PPR free transfer to complete a round trip is illegal and not permitted????? |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 2 13:45:13 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Thu Oct 2 13:27:54 2014. In fact, in the 1997 brochures introducing the policy, round trips via transfer were explicitly condoned. This has never, to my knowledge, been publicly contradicted. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Thu Oct 2 14:09:24 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Oct 2 13:45:13 2014. Exactly. Only a few exceptions in free transfers between bus lines within specific corridors (5th/Madison, Lex/3rd Ave, Grand Concourse, 34th Street etc.) were noted in the brochure. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 2 16:35:07 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Thu Oct 2 14:09:24 2014. And those are programmed in I believe.I agree that if I choose to, say, travel north via the B63 and return south via the B37 or the subway, I am not doing anything wrong. It is not my fault that the turnstiles / fare boxes fail to charge another fare. It's technically not a round-trip, even if I find that my destination leaves me ever so close to my origin. It's not my problem that there are multiple stops/stations available to me and it is possible for me to connect to them while transferring at a stop far away, and it's also not my problem if I derive benefits from that. That being said, it only makes all the more sense that fares be time-based (105 minutes sounds about right, with 120 minutes at night) rather than transfer-based. If they can do what they've already done with the MetroCard, it can't be that hard to program this. What I did once see prohibited in writing and is definitely against the law (though I've never seen enforced) is sharing an Unlimited card in the midst of a ride (i.e. person 1 enters subway with card and hands back to person 2 to use elsewhere before person 1 has finished his trip). This is often done when Person 1 will have no need of the card after the point of "pass-back" either because of the card's expiration or no further transfers or whatever. But legally, sharing is only allowed after the initial user has finished a trip, not while still in the system. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 2 17:59:10 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 2 16:35:07 2014. I bet the latter sharing is done often. If you are with a friend who doesn't have a card, and after dinner out the friend is going one way and you are going another, you can hand the friend your card and then take it back to use on another subway or bus. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Oct 2 19:07:35 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 2 17:59:10 2014. Yes. Also, if the card is nearing expiration it isn't uncommon for people finishing their last planned ride with the card to hand off the card to someone entering the system, even a stranger, for use until midnight. That, however, may be less common nowadays with the $1 fee for a new card. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Oct 2 23:22:58 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Thu Oct 2 14:09:24 2014. I never heard that round trips were condoned. They have always been discouraged. That's why you can't take a bus and get a transfer to the same bus in the reverse direction. Other round trips aren't specifically prohibited because it is impossible to define "round trip" if your start and end points are a block or two apart. The reason for the few exceptions is because that is where the MTA would lose the greatest amount of revenue. The amount of programming required to prevent round trips everywhere is probably not worth the expense for the number of people who would make round trips. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Oct 3 10:10:21 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Oct 2 23:22:58 2014. Let me attempt to shed some light.Round trips are always permitted of course. Now MTA would obviously prefer that nobody make a round trip on a single fare (when using pay-per-ride). And MTA attempts to restrict this from happening by not acknowledging transfers between the routes that it currently lists as non-transferable. However, MTA still has never discouraged anyone from "landing" a block or two away from their origin after transferring at a distant location. If they had, we would have heard about it, either via the media or pamphlets, or something. But we've never heard anything about it. We've figured it out for ourselves and make use of it, but have never received any kind of press release or policy change or anything. That would be because, with the current programming, MTA would have to require a minimum distance from origin to destination in order to qualify for a ride. If I'm afraid of subways and I want to use buses to get from, say, 20th St and 5th Ave to 20th St and 3rd Ave and I don't want to walk and I don't want to pay a second fare, I very well can get on the B63 and go to a point (either Atlantic/3rd or Bay Ridge) and transfer to the B37. If I'm able to get something done while I'm at either Bay Ridge or Atlantic/3rd, that's not my fault. It's MTA's, for not prohibiting the maneuver, either operationally or legally. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 3 10:52:06 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Oct 2 23:22:58 2014. The 1997 brochure explaining free transfers included a FAQ with a question as to whether round trips could be done, and it was explicitly stated that they were allowed if you use a different bus, with some exceptions noted. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Oct 3 13:46:51 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Oct 3 10:52:06 2014. On the other hand, Long Island Bus (when it existed as such) mentioned that transfers must go in the same "general direction." I, however, took an N22 out to Hicksville once for an N20 going back to Flushing and had no problem with the free transfer. I wonder what transfers were actually prevented (by the system) if any.LIB (now NICE) would actually be the silliest place to enforce that one go in the same "general direction" since the system revolves around hubs where one can transfer to another bus to go in a totally different direction. Nassau is exactly where the buses should allow one to change direction since there are fewer locations where you have multiple routes or stops close to a single point. Does anybody know more about this past (or present?) policy? |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by b1bus on Fri Oct 3 22:58:44 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by MTA T on Thu Oct 2 00:05:01 2014. And Dan Lawrence. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Oct 3 23:35:22 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Oct 2 09:18:03 2014. Well,you can if you apply your history within the transit industry,compared to his malcontent.Along with his spoonfed superiority complex, know it all sense of insecurity in pursuing his lifelong dream of earning the coveted "Troller of the Year Award" for the tenth time...plus his unbelievable insistence of knowing far more about the transit system's inner workings,than the workers themselves...not to mention his Insufferible substance lacking posts of "Im right,Your wrong"...there's plenty you can say. But I guess I said it for you. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by MTA T on Sat Oct 4 05:02:16 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by b1bus on Fri Oct 3 22:58:44 2014. True true. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by hound on Sat Oct 4 15:04:45 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Oct 3 13:46:51 2014. Before the MetroCard,there were a number of transfer restrictions regarding travel in the opposite direction. Ones that I can remember were:w/b N22 to e/b N79,s/b 73 to n/b 74,40 to 41 both ways,70,71,72 from east to west,54 to 55,etc. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Oct 4 21:09:12 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by hound on Sat Oct 4 15:04:45 2014. The thing with the N70/71/72, is that it's possible that somebody would want to get from the Sunrise Mall to say, North Lindenhurst and would legitimately need that transfer. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by hound on Sun Oct 5 14:34:31 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Oct 4 21:09:12 2014. That's true,it was allowed as long as it was made at the designated transfer point. Don't forget-paper transfers were given to the driver. So it was up to him to accept it or not. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Oct 6 10:29:06 2014, in response to Re: The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Oct 2 09:24:21 2014. And people act like Bus Time is a panacea for knowing when the next bus will pull out. I've also noticed problems at the beginning of route. You get messages like 5 minutes plus layover which could include the driver's 30 minute lunch break. |
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Re: The Need for Better Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Oct 7 18:55:45 2014, in response to The Need for Better Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Sep 24 00:02:11 2014. Final Part. |
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