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| Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) (279179) | |
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| (280690) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 12:18:45 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 12:08:52 2013. So roughly a 5% difference on the artics though the LFSA fleet is larger so if you have, hypothetically, 1 maintenance hog out of each fleet, that is a larger percentage of the XD60 fleet. Assuming similar costs to purchase and operate and similar gas mileage that would probably make the Nova a more attractive option for future artic purchases but it is something that can easily be swung the other way if 1) the XD60 comes at a cheaper price; 2) is cheaper to operate (even if it has a lower MDBF if the costs of repairs on the LFSA are greater than the 5% extra MDBF revenue that swings it towards XD60); and/or 3) the XD60 gets better gas mileage then it could easily swing in favor of New FlyerFor the XD40 the most accurate test will be to compare it to the 90 Nova's and 90 Orion VII Third Generation that are in the fleet because they are approximately same age and same fleet size, although being maintained by different depots can cause a difference in MDBF but should give an accurate measure of gas mileage |
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| (280691) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 12:20:35 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 12:09:47 2013. Which, along with how the bus looks, should NEVER be factored in to the purchase of a fleet of buses |
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| (280693) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 12:24:45 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 12:18:45 2013. It's clear that had Orion continued to be producing buses today, they most likely would have won with the Orion VII. As for the artics, you kind of have a valid point |
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| (280694) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 12:26:38 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 12:20:35 2013. The layout MUST be factored in if you want to carry more passengers, especially in heavy-duty routes like the M15 SBS and the BX41. |
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| (280704) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 13:13:55 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 12:26:38 2013. But layout can be easily changed by telling the manufacturer what seating layout you want and has a negligible difference in price |
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| (280716) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:51:20 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 10:23:43 2013. I ride them everyday and for the most part they're fine to me, unless I'm missing something.... |
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| (280718) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 13:53:02 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:51:20 2013. I agree, the 7000s ride just like any other Orion VII we have. |
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| (280719) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:53:35 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 12:24:45 2013. Orion chose to exit at the wrong time. Oh well.... |
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| (280720) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 13:55:15 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:53:35 2013. Damn idiots. smh. |
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| (280722) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:57:27 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 13:53:02 2013. Eh, the 7000s ride better than the other Orion 7s. The Next Gen's ride sucks due to the way they were built. The 6000s I'm on the fence with. |
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| (280723) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 14:05:18 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:57:27 2013. Didn't they use super-glue or something to construct the NGs? |
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| (280724) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 14:09:05 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 14:05:18 2013. Resin. |
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| (280727) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Dr. Casca on Thu Aug 1 14:26:36 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:53:35 2013. Well, for the record, Orion didn't choose to exit, whether at the right or wrong time. It was Daimler's decision to close Orion (and even Setra*), after seeing that its transit and motorcoach businesses weren't doing really well as compared to their automotive business. It certainly wasn't doing too well if you consider that Orion had roughly 10% market share in the transit bus sector and Setra roughly that or less in the motorcoach sector. In transit buses, New Flyer (and subsidiaries) and Gillig had a combined 60-70% transit bus market share, while MCI and Prevost both have roughly 25% market share IINM in the motorcoach market. Novabus is gaining momentum after its return to the US transit bus market, and Prevost is right up there with MCI. The Volvo Group is doing pretty well, while Daimler (outside of Mercedes Benz) isn't doing so tough.*Setra's an interesting one since they are still being built in Europe and branded as Setra even though Daimler won't be selling the buses, MCI will. I wouldn't call it a closing, but at least it won't be in Daimler's hands entirely. Orion, on the other hand, is a done deal. Quality control issues with the Orion VII NG with two of their largest customers didn't help things, even though the Orion VII 3G was a much better built bus than previous generations. --Dr. C |
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| (280728) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 14:33:24 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Dr. Casca on Thu Aug 1 14:26:36 2013. Well, they were doing better I between 2004-2009. Its in 2010 that there were problems. |
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| (280729) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 14:34:23 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Dr. Casca on Thu Aug 1 14:26:36 2013. Why did Neoplan-USA go down though? There was never really a true explanation for them closing? |
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| (280730) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 14:37:22 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Dr. Casca on Thu Aug 1 14:26:36 2013. Novabus had to move to Canada, otherwise they would of eventually had to close down. Daimler was still stupid in making that decision because they could of waited a little while to see if things would pick up (which they kinda are now). Also, they could of waited and see how the Orion VIII bus would of preformed. They were only a month or 2 anyway from releasing the test bus. That was REALLY stupid on their behalf. |
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| (280738) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Dr. Casca on Thu Aug 1 15:03:43 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 14:37:22 2013. Novabus had to move to Canada, otherwise they would of eventually had to close downNovabus did NOT move to Canada, they were already in Canada. They were sold the design rights to the RTS and the Classic, the RTS built in Roswell and the Classic built in St-Eustache. Novabus was heavily marketing the LFS which didn't do so well in Canada, but didn't fare much better in the US market. The RTS was still being produced in Roswell until 2002 when Novabus closed that plant, so that they can focus on LFS production. I believe it was around that time when the La Pocatierre plant opened. The LFS was still being built for the US but at their Schenectady plant, which also shut down. So, Novabus, as far as the LFS is concerned, focused on St-Eustache for LFS production while the RTS lay dead until Millennium bought the Roswell plant. Daimler was still stupid in making that decision because they could of waited a little while to see if things would pick up (which they kinda are now) Well, maybe the decision by Daimler was short-sighted, but remember Daimler was going through some rough waters what with their Chrysler division going bankrupt and being bailed out by the Feds. Daimler's other brands were doing a bit better, mainly in Europe, but Daimler as a corporation was looking at the bigger picture and seeing that their bus business were doing poorly in terms of market share of the industries they built for (again, Orion had roughly 10% market share in the US market at a time when transit funds were slim pickings and nobody was buying large orders of buses except for NYCT and TTC, their largest Orion customers). New Flyer and Gillig both had roughly 3-% market share, both builders had more orders for more equivalent units than any other manufacturer building transit buses in the US year over year. Also, they could of waited and see how the Orion VIII bus would of preformed. They were only a month or 2 anyway from releasing the test bus I had heard from my contacts that the Orion VIII (and even the Orion IX) was pushed back due to their focus on 2010 EPA emissions-related components and design for the Orion VII platform, which is what we saw before Daimler closed Orion. --Dr. C |
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| (280744) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by daimlerbuses on Thu Aug 1 15:48:13 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Dr. Casca on Thu Aug 1 15:03:43 2013. Daimler sold it's entire share in Chrysler by early 2009, 80% in 2007 and the remaining 20% by March 2009, they were not owners of Chrysler when Chrysler declared bankruptcy.As for the "VIII", It was never 'pushed back', just more what the market conditions and demands were as you note. Some of the designs, elements, components etc. that were planned for the new product line were tested on the EPA2010 prototype buses (or retrofitted afterwards to them). As far as I understand the design phase got as far as scheduling Altoona testing, but nothing beyond that. There were a dedicated team of approx. 10 staff working on the new bus project (mix of North American and Germany engineering) and they were the first to be cut as the announcement came down. You're absolutely correct about the Orion artic though. That kept being pushed further and further back. |
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| (280745) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 15:56:14 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by daimlerbuses on Thu Aug 1 15:48:13 2013. Back to the main topic, what do you think the MTA will order? |
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| (280752) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 19:15:07 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by LRG5784 on Thu Aug 1 13:51:20 2013. The body panels are falling apart. |
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| (280754) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 19:46:03 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 19:15:07 2013. Same with the XD40s. Have you even seen the buses at East New York? Those New Flyers are being run down. |
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| (280755) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 19:47:32 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 19:46:03 2013. East New York looks fine. The Orion VII 3rd Gen needs emergency repairs. |
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| (280757) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 19:48:29 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 19:47:32 2013. Yeah, right. |
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| (280758) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 19:49:12 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 19:47:32 2013. Even if that were true that's just all Staten Island buses in general. |
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| (280759) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 19:53:27 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 19:48:29 2013. Yeah, right boy. |
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| (280764) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 20:02:27 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 19:49:12 2013. You should go outside more. |
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| (280765) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 20:09:00 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 20:02:27 2013. His Orion-tinted glasses make it difficult to see anything else |
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| (280766) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 20:14:22 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 20:09:00 2013. What's that suppose to mean? |
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| (280767) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 20:19:11 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 20:14:22 2013. You are letting your bias in favor of Orion prevent a rational analysis of their buses. As the buses for NYCT and LIB show they do not age well. The lack of replacements and the need to get rid of older TMC's forced the Orions to be kept on longer than they needed to be. The last few years the 1xx-6xx Orion V's frames were in terrible shape |
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| (280769) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 20:22:41 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by mtk52983 on Thu Aug 1 20:19:11 2013. Those were earlier Orion Vs. The newer ones are more solid. |
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| (280773) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 20:40:22 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 20:22:41 2013. Not true, they are having frame rot issues. ESPECIALLY those buses parked on the Sandy flood zones. |
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| (280774) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 20:46:26 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 20:40:22 2013. An RTS or Orion VII would of done the same thing. Your point? |
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| (280775) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by CJ on Thu Aug 1 20:57:46 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 20:46:26 2013. I did hear high floor buses tended to be well built and much more durable compared to low floor buses. |
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| (280776) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 20:57:54 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 14:37:22 2013. what are you talking about?nova came on the scene when they bought out TMC/GREYHOUND bus building operations in new Mexico and Canada. nova CAME FROM Canada..they withdrew from the American market after soft sales in early 2000's. they were CONVINCED to return to the US market by[guess who],immediately rewarded by a 180 bus order..plus another 320*,with another order coming soon. Orion had nothing to do with the reason they were shut down..it was a CORPORATE DECISION out of Europe to help their bottom line. they COULD have sold off Orion to another competitor..but it didn't happen that way..NF took over their aftermarket business,and that's that. NF MAY HOLD the design works for the 07s,but they wouldn't produce a competing model like MCI refuses to build the FLXIBLE METRO...even though its was a good bus. |
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| (280778) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:01:00 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by CJ on Thu Aug 1 20:57:46 2013. He was talking about the Orion Vs actually. |
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| (280781) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:03:56 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 20:57:54 2013. What do you mean another order coming soon? I think the MTA is going to go all the way with New Flyer this time. |
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| (280791) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Thu Aug 1 21:21:09 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 20:57:54 2013. Because of his youth, he does not understand the business world, how it operates and what the bottom line means. |
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| (280792) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:21:12 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 15:56:14 2013. why?nothing wrong with being "corrected"..now you KNOW FACTS,instead of speculative opinion. As far as WHAT the MTA will order..they've been pretty cozy with NEW FLYER lately,plus the XD's is a "pretty" bus with curb appeal..not to count out NOVA or Gillig.. NOVA is their 60ft bus "fall to" guy..a proven model for them..while XD60 is the test bed for THAT model. Gillig is the unknown here..the MTA had one sitting outside of 2 Bway a few years back[I was the person who reported it here]for viewing and testing I suppose..beside the model that tested the engine/tranny combo. Im looking at both Nova and NF to be awarded this upcoming contract..with the 90 test models going to Gillig for its BRT ADVANTAGE 40FT...but even after that,they'll be 500 plus buses that need replacing..which should be an option order tatted on. |
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| (280794) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:22:45 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Bill From Maspeth on Thu Aug 1 21:21:09 2013. The hell you talking about? I know all that shit. I took economics, thank you very much! |
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| (280796) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:25:00 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:21:12 2013. What happened to MTS? No one is talking about them anymore. |
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| (280799) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:27:48 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:25:00 2013. they didn't PRODUCE.that's their problem..they NEVER came up with the MTA's test model...they could keep up with the delivery schedule the MTA wanted..they didn't want to send a model to ALTOON. |
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| (280800) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:28:43 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:27:48 2013. So, the MTA is officially done with the RTS then? |
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| (280801) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:29:02 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:03:56 2013. you know like I do,the MTA is going to give the next 60ft order to NOVA. |
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| (280802) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:31:13 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:29:02 2013. I was just speculating. It's not set in stone. |
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| (280803) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:31:18 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 19:46:03 2013. They look fine to me..and I see em everyday...! |
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| (280804) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:33:44 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:31:18 2013. Well, many of them look banged up. Ulmer Park's units look somewhat better. |
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| (280805) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:33:56 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 20:46:26 2013. the RTS FRAMES were built of stainless steel...much harder to "rot/rust" as far as deterioration is concerned..which is a good reason why some of them lasted 18 years plus. |
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| (280806) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:37:15 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:33:56 2013. But many others ended up being retired early, like most of the TMCs. |
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| (280807) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Aug 1 21:40:08 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:28:43 2013. I can't say..as much as I love the idea of an RTS LOW FLOOR model here in NY..the MTS MANAGEMENT team has REAL ISSUES obtaining capitol to meet its obligations. If I ran the DOB..I wouldnt touch them with a 10 ft poll,until they got their act together...which from the looks of it,wont be for a while. |
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| (280808) | |
Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013) |
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Posted by Gold_12th on Thu Aug 1 21:40:46 2013, in response to Re: MTA presentation: ''Bus Procurement Update'' (July 2013), posted by R62CNG on Thu Aug 1 21:37:15 2013. because EPA regulations. |
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