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| Re: Are They Kidding? (1315440) | |
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Re: Are They Kidding? |
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Posted by jabrams on Sat Sep 27 17:24:16 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Nilet on Fri Sep 26 23:43:30 2014. You can't keep trucks and tractor trailers off the parkways. Someone will goof and send one of those trains through the tunnel. Are they going to place signs at Court St, Broad St, and Whitehall, stating if you are an R32 or R40, discharge and turn around? |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 17:31:07 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by jabrams on Sat Sep 27 17:24:16 2014. No, it is up to the originating location and towers/dispatchers at gap stations as well as the t/o's to read the bulletin boards that there would be no mistakes. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Sep 27 19:58:00 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 17:31:07 2014. The problem is that many towers and gap stations are located where they can't see the actual trains so they would have no way of knowing a train's consist in time to prevent something like an R-32 from entering the tube. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Are They Kidding? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Sep 27 20:18:09 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 27 19:58:00 2014. I do not know, but I just see this as the MTA had a capability or freedom to send its IND/BMT 60-foot type trains anywhere they needed to go anywhere on the B Division system, without any concern that those trains will fit within the tunnels or scrape the sides of the tunnels. Now it seems that there has been a reduction in the system's flexibility, without any real news that there will be a fix put in place.Now some folks here are saying in essence, "Live With It" - we're getting rid of those trains anywhere. While others are saying, "There were trips that used to be made, that cannot be made anywhere due to this screw-up". This situation sucks. While the come-back response seems to be, "Get Over It! You've Been Screwed, Enjoy It!" I just think it would be better that all of the 60-foot IND/BMT type trains were able to travel anywhere within the B Division. Just my thoughts. Mike |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Sat Sep 27 20:22:40 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Sep 27 10:35:30 2014. The first time I ever saw and rode a 32 was on the N as well. I was with my mom and I forget where she had to go....but I damm sure remember that new train. I was impressed!!!Jimmymc25 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:29:24 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Michael549 on Sat Sep 27 20:18:09 2014. As I noted earlier there has been midnight GO's in the Montague once this problem arose.NYCT is under no obligation to post on this board if the problem is being addressed. Since I have not seen the internal GO document, IDK if this is the purpose or not. When the official Bulletin prohibiting certain car classes from the Montague is receeded well will know if any action is being taken or not. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Sep 27 20:31:56 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Michael549 on Sat Sep 27 20:18:09 2014. you wrote "Just my thoughts. Mike" You are absolutely correct. Allowing this stupidity to continue will bite the MTA in the a$$. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:35:43 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Sep 27 20:31:56 2014. I refuse to believe this is a permanent situation that will not be possible to repair, nor does the situation exist from end to end in both directions.Leave it to this site for "gloom and doom". |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Sep 27 20:56:48 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by jimmymc25 on Sat Sep 27 20:22:40 2014. We went from 36th St. in Brooklyn to 34th St. in Manhattan. I still remember going over the Manhattan Bridge and in 1965, the BMT Broadway line used the north side tracks. Those green backlit "57th St." side signs and blue doors left a lasting impression. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:56:51 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:35:43 2014. Let's go back a bit with some detective work.A day or 2 after it reopened. there was a fallen cable problem in the tube. Only NYCT, if they desire, can make public if an R42 transfer or R32 being used as horses came thru there. I'm sure by now they know the exact survey markers where there are clearance issues effecting those cars as well as the R1/9. Now NYCT can address these issues. This kind of thing will make another total shutdown un-necessary. Sounds like the "hangers" for cable have to be moved a bit. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Sep 27 21:29:31 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Sep 26 23:36:50 2014. Ironically, that bridge is no longer in use. It was the bridge to what was Maria Regina High School before the newer bridge just before it southbound was built. I suspect that eventually it will be demolished and not replaced, perhaps if the parkway is ever widened. Most of Moses' best are still standing; they were built to last as they laugh at tractor trailers that take their chances with them. But the maxim is true-- know your truck, know your train, know your route, etc. Knowledge is power, not to mention safety. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Sep 27 21:37:23 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:56:51 2014. I agree-- I'm sure that the tunnel itself was not repoured and it was just careless placement of equipment that can be relocated with some relatively minor effort. |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Sat Sep 27 22:05:33 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:35:43 2014. I agree Bill.Jimmymc25 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 27 23:31:20 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:56:51 2014. Yep ... agree completely. But still ... measure once, cut twice is no way to do construction in the first place. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 27 23:45:38 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Sep 27 21:29:31 2014. In Voorheesville, this particular D&H railroad bridge (now CSX Main line) has 11' 4" clearance, and has taken out MANY a truck despite big flashing electrical signs on either side of it warning of the height. At least 12 times a year, it's can opener time. :) Note the can opener edge on the bottom. Heh. |
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Posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 27 23:59:41 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 27 23:45:38 2014. No wonder CDTA doesn't use Hybrids on that run. |
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Posted by chud1 on Sun Sep 28 04:48:15 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Michael549 on Sat Sep 27 20:18:09 2014. IAWTP!chud1. :).... |
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Posted by Patrick Boylan on Sun Sep 28 08:04:03 2014, in response to Are They Kidding?, posted by Stef on Fri Sep 26 13:35:32 2014. Ladies and Germans, please take pity on us lurkers who don't live in New York. In the future somewhere at the top of the thread could someone please explain the problems's cause? All I know is what I read in subchat, I couldn't figure how the museum cars got larger, I assumed they once upon a time had used the tunnel, and none of your posts say that the tunnel got smaller.I get the impression somebody did some work on the tunnel which did in fact make it get smaller. I can imagine that some authorized person might have figured that the cost to have the tunnel work accommodate the museum pieces might not justify the benefit. Some of the posts also seem to indicate that the clearance problem MIGHT affect more than just the museum equipment. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 28 08:23:22 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Sep 27 21:37:23 2014. This is thought of LION,,, But... What if in pouring a new road bed the whole track was lifted by three or four inches.Or maybe they decided to decided to exclude the old cars and rebuilt with an envelope suited only for the newer cars. Maybe they kneaded that space for something. Oh well, it is what it is. In scheme of LION only the (R) train would ever use it. But not everybody hails the scheme of the LION with great bravos. ROAR |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sun Sep 28 11:40:56 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 00:15:20 2014. Bulletin 94-14 for NYCT personnel with access to RTO on TENS has the restriction in writing. |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Sep 28 14:09:12 2014, in response to Are They Kidding?, posted by Stef on Fri Sep 26 13:35:32 2014. I thought the R-32s and R-42s run just fine thru the Montague Street Tubes?? I def recall running more than a few R-32s and R-42s thru there with no issues. And since when have these clearance issues been in effect??? Never once in my B Division days have I ever seen such a notice. Guess A LOT has changed in the 10+ years I been gone from the TA!!! |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 28 14:35:29 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 28 08:23:22 2014. I would suspect that the newer cars have an envelope at least as big if not slightly bigger than the older cars. |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 28 15:40:09 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 28 08:23:22 2014. Wasn't there a situation on the Brighton line when they redid the express tracks only to find they'd put down too much ballast? The rails were several inches higher than before and they had to rip everything out and start over. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 28 15:45:56 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 28 15:40:09 2014. That's correct. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 28 15:49:53 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Sep 28 14:09:12 2014. Yeah... Like Rebuilding the entire tunnel.Maybe different clearance plates were used. Maybe the wayside wanted more stuff than what could fit in the old envelope. ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 28 15:51:58 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 28 14:35:29 2014. That is indeed what the LION would have thunked, espcy with 75s going through there.ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 28 15:54:18 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 28 15:45:56 2014. On railroad that is not as complicated as it sounds. Ballast train can fix that rather quickly unless the darn things are embedded in concrete. |
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Posted by trains61 on Sun Sep 28 15:55:34 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Patrick Boylan on Sun Sep 28 08:04:03 2014. It`s not that the tunnel got smaller, the tunnels` inner diameter apparently got compromised by newly installed conduits and other equipment. The Museum equipment the did in fact use this tunnel in regular service. The sides of the so-called new tech trains are sloped thereby leaving a narrower Footprint at the top. So they could enter the tunnel with no issue. The older stock equipment have more vertical sides, leaving a wider Footprint at the roofline, hence your clearance issues. From the post it appears someone omitted these factors from their calculations.Hope that helps. The Lurker`s Guild Chairman Emeritus |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 28 18:12:58 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Sep 28 15:54:18 2014. That may very well be the problem in Montague since it has concrete roadbed. I recall over 40 years ago when I was still,living in Manhattan the TA installed modified typeII roadbed at 103 St/Bway N/B. Within a week, it was being chipped out and repoured probably because it was set too high. I apparently didn't affect actual tunnel clearances since trains continued to operate through there, but it may have affected the vertical gap between the cars and the platform. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Sep 28 19:34:39 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Sep 28 14:09:12 2014. This turned up once the Montague reopened following Sandy repairs. |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Sep 28 20:23:09 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 28 14:35:29 2014. As another poster pointed out, the problem must be at the roof line. The newer cars (R46 & up) are a foot narrower at the roof line than the R32's and about 8 inches narrower than the R42's. They'll probably have to move the cable conduits lower and further away from the side of the trains if they have the room. |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Sep 28 21:22:36 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by 3-9 on Fri Sep 26 19:12:32 2014. I understand it is a radiac tunnel antenna cable |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Sep 28 21:32:18 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Michael549 on Fri Sep 26 15:22:41 2014. Limiting Line of Line Equipment, or LLLE, is a NYCT specification that specifies physical dimension clearance envelopes for A, and B division rolling stock. This includes allowable horizontal, and vertical car sway during car movements.During the build of the IND in the late 1920's, and 1930's, a cut out model of a subway car was used to gauge tunnel roof, and walls prior to concrete pours in the construction of Type-2 track. Unfortunately the gang that overseeing the tunnel restoration forgot about the garbage trains. The IRT sized EP's have no problem, but R32's do. No A/B's or D Types going through that tunnel, should they ever run. |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Sep 28 21:36:56 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 28 15:45:56 2014. When the Brighton roadbed was completely rehab's in the mid 1980's, some station platforms were lower than the car floor. NYCT went in and retrofitted some of the platform sections with plywood to raise the grade of the platform to match the car body floor. In most cases the sections of platform that recived this treatment seemed to be those platforms that were extended either to accommodate longer BMT era trains, or when the platforms were extended to 600' for the BMT/IND merger in the mid 1960's. Witnessed on a daily basis at both the Neck road, and Avenue U stations. |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Sep 28 21:39:36 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Sep 27 10:35:30 2014. In NYCT RTO parlance Sea Beach N as in Nancy |
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Posted by jace on Sun Sep 28 22:31:19 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Sep 28 21:32:18 2014. The LLLE and the MOU that defines the clearances as well as the static and dynamic conditions that all cars have to meet have been revised over the years. It's clear from this that car equipment gave up some real estate after the R42's were built. This probably came about when the feeler cars were used to check if 75' cars would work in what may have been the last true survey of actual clearances. |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Sep 29 00:16:55 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Sep 27 10:35:30 2014. Then you might like this video. :) |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 29 01:20:56 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Sep 27 23:45:38 2014. Hey! I know that slice of road! |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 29 01:27:40 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 26 17:37:24 2014. Not so much.. as the curved sided rolling stock is narrowed at the roofline than the belt or floor.This is UTTERLY ridiculous. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 29 01:28:50 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 29 01:20:56 2014. Heh. Wonder how THAT happened? :)And despite those BIG glowing flashing signs, trucks still wedge in there all the time. Yeah, we're living north and west of there now, but that was home for a long time, and every time you heard sheriff's coming, you KNEW what just happened. Heh. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 29 01:35:38 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by VictorM on Sun Sep 28 20:23:09 2014. I didn't realize that the curvature of the car body would cause that much difference in the roof lines. Probably the MTA should have used the R-32s as a standard for clearance in the tube. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 29 01:35:45 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 29 01:27:40 2014. I was asking someone I know earlier who has a little bit of an idea of what's going on there. The GOOD news is that the problems are up near the top of the tunnel, and though it'll take a bit of work to move some stuff, it will apparently get done. Just a matter of time and some extra bucks and a few spankings. |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 29 01:41:09 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by HANDBRAKE on Sun Sep 28 21:39:36 2014. Actually, the NYCTA has gone to using more military parlance thus the N is "November." |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 29 01:43:50 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Sep 27 20:35:43 2014. I'm with you on this.Doesn't seem to be a permanent situation... so the issues a wrap. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 29 01:44:02 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 29 01:35:38 2014. I'm honestly surprised they didn't. While the arnines are too precious to use for home room science experiments, there were still some junkers left on their way to the scrapper that could have been dragged through there by one of the C division N locos for a final test as feeler cars at least. :(I'm kinda saddened at the QC there. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 29 01:45:45 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 29 01:41:09 2014. I *hate* using whiskey tango foxtrot with civilians on the phone. They go "WHAT?!?!" Then there's figuring out what 2250 means. :)I LOVED it when the D was the "dog" and the R was the "rarely" ... heh. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Sep 29 03:10:02 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 29 01:35:45 2014. Yeah..at least it can be repaired.Dumb to fit the repairs around only newer model railcars. |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Sep 29 04:31:37 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Sep 29 00:16:55 2014. 5 drooling stars out of 5 drooling stars for this video.chud1. :).... |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Sep 29 05:22:58 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 29 01:35:45 2014. IAWTP!chud1. :).... |
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Posted by chud1 on Mon Sep 29 05:24:10 2014, in response to Re: Are They Kidding?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon Sep 29 01:44:02 2014. IAWTP!chud1. :).... |
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