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| 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance (880974) | |
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| (880978) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 1 14:42:58 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. What is the grace period allowed to consider a train "on time"? |
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| (880979) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 14:43:47 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. What is their definition of on-time? |
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| (880981) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 14:46:22 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 1 14:42:58 2010. Yeah, what are the rules? How much time is allowed? If there is a mechanical failure or passenger incident do they count that? |
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| (880982) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jan 1 14:47:14 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 14:43:47 2010. As I recall, it's arrival/departure at/from the terminal within 5 min and 59 seconds of scheduled time. |
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| (880985) | |
Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:54:13 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. Late Trains are 6min after scheduled arrival time |
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| (880987) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 14:55:46 2010, in response to Def Of Late Trains:, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:54:13 2010. You mean scheduled departure time. |
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| (880988) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:57:23 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 14:55:46 2010. Thank you, trying to quickly answer while watching the Winter Classic wasn't wise lol. |
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| (880990) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by rtype3995 on Fri Jan 1 15:05:33 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. Most of those #'s are fixed anyway......lol |
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| (880991) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 1 15:05:34 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 14:55:46 2010. No, he means arrival time. Assuming a train departs its terminal on time and arrives at the opposite terminal 5 min late or less, then the train is considered to be on time. When I first started and up until the mid 198s or so, the standard was 4 min late or less arriving at the terminal to be on time. The new NYCTA regime didn't improve the on time performance but merely adopted a more liberal standard for what constitutes "on time" therefore creating an illusion of improved performance while in reality legitimizing poorer performance. |
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| (880993) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 1 15:07:11 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by rtype3995 on Fri Jan 1 15:05:33 2010. With more electronic control of train dispatching and monitoring, that will become increasingly harder to do if not outright impossible. |
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| (880994) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 15:08:04 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 1 15:05:34 2010. Tis true, look at lines like the 7 and the L and the 4 and the 1 which each run 2-4-5 min headways at the peak of the rush. You can be an interval behind in terms of lateness and still be "on time". Translation a clogged yet on time railroad.4 min for on time, now thats insane. I wonder what the stats would be if it was 4 min. |
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| (880999) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Fri Jan 1 15:28:03 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by BMTLines on Fri Jan 1 14:42:58 2010. 5 minutes. |
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| (881000) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Fri Jan 1 15:28:44 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 14:46:22 2010. Sure, because these are reasons for lateness. |
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| (881003) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 15:38:56 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Fri Jan 1 15:28:44 2010. Peter Rosa must have bad luck. Reading his blog I got the impression that the A train was slow or delayed about half the time. |
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| (881005) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 15:40:43 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 15:38:56 2010. I wonder if that's because most of the delays are at rush hour. |
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| (881010) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jan 1 15:44:43 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 15:08:04 2010. Back in the old days, many times, if there was no specific train trouble report when the late trains were called for at the end of each rush, command center personnel would merely instruct the terminal supervision to "make it 4" often fudging the statistics heavily. The only time such an "adjustment" might not be necessary would be if the train in question was brought in by a finishing crew that was finishing and claiming a late clear. The 7 Line was a different ball game entirely. in the AM at T/Sq Queens, the ATD on duty would merely record the trains as the came in whether they were in place or out of place. Thus if an express cut out a local at Rawson and came in on the locals arrival time and the local arrived late in its own service but on the express's arrival time both trains would be recorded as "on time." In those days, the statistics had more fudge on them that a chocolate sundae. |
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| (881017) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by f179dj on Fri Jan 1 16:02:20 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 1 15:44:43 2010. Another trick was to charge lateness to some other confirmed problem, even if the late train in question was miles away. |
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| (881018) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 1 16:02:39 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 15:08:04 2010. 4 min for on time, now thats insane. I wonder what the stats would be if it was 4 min.The BOT used a 3 minute criterion. Here are the results from 1945 through the first half of 1949: IRT 67.50 (1945); 74.86 (1946); 77.73 (1947); 86.30 (1948) and 87.47 (1949); BMT 95.86 (1945); 98.39 (1946) 98.35 (1947) 98.77 (1948) and 99.19 (1949); IND 99.06 (1945) 99.20 (1946) 99.68 (1947) 99.22 (1948) and 99.24 (1949). That's why they did not need a countdown clock at more than $1 million per station. |
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| (881021) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 16:08:25 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 1 16:02:39 2010. WOW!!!! Thats amazing on time percentages, and I believe those countdown clocks are the biggest waste of money. |
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| (881037) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 1 17:13:43 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 1 15:05:34 2010. The new NYCTA regime didn't improve the on time performance but merely adopted a more liberal standard for what constitutes "on time" therefore creating an illusion of improved performance while in reality legitimizing poorer performance.Still later regimes have increased running times to accomplish the same end. |
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| (881038) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 17:15:52 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 1 17:13:43 2010. I don't have a problem with that. Airlines did the same thing. Might as well adjust the schedule to reflect what you actually run, not what you used to run or what you'd like to run. |
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| (881043) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jan 1 17:41:40 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 17:15:52 2010. Might as well adjust the schedule to reflect what you actually run, not what you used to run or what you'd like to run.No - it's worse than that. Scheduled running times exceed actual running times, and passengers pay with their own time for the difference waiting for a slot to open up at the terminal. Flushing Line is probably the poster child for this disparity. |
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| (881045) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Aq Arcticson on Fri Jan 1 17:45:23 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. I'm surprised at the J's stats. |
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| (881047) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 17:47:31 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by trainsarefun on Fri Jan 1 17:41:40 2010. I think that I see. If a route takes 1 hour to run they set the schedule for 65 minutes. That already allows for 5 minutes of delays so a train would have to have 10 minutes of delays to technically be "late". Something like that? |
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| (881049) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 17:59:13 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 17:47:31 2010. At the moment my trains take 22 minutes and 30 seconds to make their runs. I have six train sets and four minute headways. Baring derailments, my trains always run on time. When I get my automation completely up and running (and it is looking VERY GOOD at the moment) I may be able to trim a minute or two off the running times. Still, I want to maintain realistic dwell times. Already, half of that time is dwell time. I do not think that I will allow a dwell of less than 10 seconds, which would make my longest random dwell time to be 25 seconds. It could be more if I program that into a particular station such as Times Square and Prospect Park. These two stations are at the top of a long and rather steep uptown climb, and trainsets with only one powered car will take a little longer there.ROAR |
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| (881052) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 18:04:59 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 17:59:13 2010. :) |
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| (881055) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 18:10:36 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 17:59:13 2010. Did you use the same contractors as the MTA for CBTC on your line :)I hope your automation doesn't end up like the Grand Central Line lol. I look forward to the pics when its up and running fully. |
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| (881056) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jan 1 18:11:05 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 17:59:13 2010. Stop playing BMT and put some motor cars in there. :) |
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| (881057) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 1 18:11:34 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by randyo on Fri Jan 1 15:07:11 2010. With more electronic control of train dispatching and monitoring, that will become increasingly harder to do if not outright impossible.If they implemented their countdown clocks correctly, they should be able to get that monitoring for free. |
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| (881058) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 18:26:29 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 18:10:36 2010. I asked Br. John (he is our maintenance manager) if he had any 1 RPM motors (he NEVER throws anything away) for as I had mentioned, I was planning on building a machine to start my trains from each station after they had made the stop.Well, what do you know. He had the most perfect timer switch for me. A 60 second run time and six wheels and switch sets. I will use four of the switches, so that I will have four "start wires" running around the layout. I will then be able to have a start time at each station of 0, 15, 30, or 45 seconds. The one I select for a particular station depends on the running time + the dwell time from the previous station. So I will start at 242nd street on the even minute, and then I will program each succeeding station stop by connecting its start relay to the proper start wire. I will apply about 10v DC at perhaps 5 Amps to the entire layout, which will be powered up at all times. (Train sets are wired for all-wheel pick up) As the last car of a train clears each of two gaps bridged with 10 ohm and 15 ohm resistors it will slow down. As it clears the last gap into the station it will stop until the time clock pulls its relay to let it continue on to the next station. The same trick with the resistors on the track gaps will allow it to pick up speed properly. This afternoon I was (until I was called back downstairs to sell some wine) perfecting the resistor system at the South Ferry Station. The project *is* looking good, and I am impressed with my own progress. Now I will have to rebuild the other four trainsets with drawbars, 48 wheel pickup, and constant lighting. The lighting is battery powered, and so constant during the run of the train. A magnet built into the terminal stations and yards will shut the lights off (a reed switch, don't you know) when the trains are not running. ROARING |
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| (881059) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Jan 1 18:26:54 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. So the F train is held up by the G train, the V train, and the E train, which are in turn held up by virtually every lettered line apart from the Eastern Division. And it has a lot of stops. It's quite amusing that the set-up concentrates the delays on the F train particularly. |
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| (881067) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Fri Jan 1 18:40:27 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jan 1 17:13:43 2010. That's what happens when the system is grade timed to death, field shunting gets removed, and terminals ending in bumper blocks has trains crawling in. |
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| (881070) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Fri Jan 1 18:44:05 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Aq Arcticson on Fri Jan 1 17:45:23 2010. I'm not. When I worked there we had few problems.Now some feel there is not enough service outside the rush........... |
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| (881073) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Bill From Maspeth on Fri Jan 1 18:47:48 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Fri Jan 1 18:26:54 2010. I can assure that the G is held up more by the F train. Anybody who rides it between Hoyt/Schmerhorn and Church can attest to that. |
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| (881075) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 18:58:22 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Bill From Maspeth on Fri Jan 1 15:28:44 2010. Are you sure? Because they evidently keep two sets of stats. One for absolute performance and one for "controllable" performance. These seem more in line with the controllable numbers. |
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| (881076) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 1 19:01:04 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. Wow, impressive....the Easter Division has come a LOOOOONNG way from when it used to be the worst run lines in the system.... |
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| (881077) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 19:02:32 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 18:58:22 2010. Weekday Controllable On-Time Performance: the percentage of regularly scheduled trains arriving at the terminal no more than 5 minutes late, compared to the published schedule, excluding trains that are late due to incidents beyond NYCT's control, including sick customers, police or fire department activity, vandalism, opening of moveable bridges for maritime traffic and loss of outside electrical power. This indicator is a measure of service reliability. |
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| (881085) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by jabrams on Fri Jan 1 19:32:39 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Easy on Fri Jan 1 17:15:52 2010. Amtrak autotrain: originally leaves at 4 PM, arrives at 8:30 AM the next day. Train was always late due to trackwork, slow moving freight trains, etc. Now the schedule has the train leaving at 4 PM and arriving at 9:30 AM, so an 8:30 arrival is now 1 hour early. In the 60's, the CPW express run in the city's "red book" listed the A express at 5 minutes, and the "D" express at 6 minutes (59-125th), now I guarentee you the timetable has been increased by a few minutes. Change the schedule to make it look like the service is running on time. Similarly with airlines: The actual flight is 1 hour, but the schedule lists the flight as 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 hours to compensate for the delays at takeoff. On a recent trip, we left JFK within 10 minutes of leaving the gate, so we arrived 30 minutes ahead of schedule. |
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| (881086) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by jabrams on Fri Jan 1 19:35:43 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 18:26:29 2010. What about the holding lights, for the train connections, or will you leave as the connecting train arrives (just like the prototype). |
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Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 20:43:12 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by jabrams on Fri Jan 1 19:35:43 2010. Well, since I model a single route, there would be no holding lights. I will install them at South Ferry, and I will install starting lights at 242nd Street, but these would be just for looks anyway.The clock will control ALL departures. I will give the train at 242nd Street the lineup, and the clock will start the train on the minute. Arriving trains will have to hold at Dyckman Street if they are not aligned to arrive at 242nd Street. The could miss a cycle and have to wait a full minute, but his follower should be four minutes behind him, so I should have no rear endings at this headway. If I could get two more trainsets, I could try for a three minute headway which would be real cool. ROAR |
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| (881156) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Jan 1 23:14:17 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. J/Z Line: 98.6%Tips cap..... :o) |
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| (881176) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 2 02:20:41 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 20:43:12 2010. You shouldn't hold them at Dyckman. Hold them at 238 St. |
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| (881177) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 2 02:22:11 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by jabrams on Fri Jan 1 19:32:39 2010. That doesn't sound right since the A and D run on common track between 125 and 59 therefore running times should be identical. |
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Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jan 2 04:32:55 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 2 02:22:11 2010. I'm wondering if the extra minute has anything to do with how it was when I was there - If there was an A train anywhere south of 59, they'd always hold my D on the ramp N/B until it passed into 59. If they're still doing that, and I'm sure they are, that'd maybe explain it. :(But then it *is* the N/B 59/125 segment apparently. |
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| (881189) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 2 06:08:39 2010, in response to Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jan 1 19:01:04 2010. Of course. Look at all the subchatters who make the Eastern Division run: Railman, ENYakaSubbus, NETO, and one or two others. |
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| (881190) | |
Re: 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jan 2 06:10:49 2010, in response to 2009 Subway Line On-Time Performance, posted by ClearAspect on Fri Jan 1 14:26:17 2010. The longer a line, the more delays. 2, F, A.The F is really a nightmare though. For passengers and crews. |
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| (881219) | |
Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by jabrams on Sat Jan 2 10:49:44 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 2 02:22:11 2010. In the 60's, the "A" train had the newer cars, while the "D"'s ran the arnines. Anyway, that is what the book (unfortunately, I don't think I have it any more) stated. A train 5 minute run, D train (yes, same track, 6 minutes. However, on the few times that the A went express on the local track, that must have been a 4 minute run. I was once on a late 2 or 3 express, and that really ran fast between 42 and 72 (I guess no timers than - 70's o early 80's). |
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Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 2 11:16:26 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 2 02:20:41 2010. Heh! I don't *have* a 238th Street.THIS is my layout:
BTW: I just installed the sub-platform at South Ferry, so all platforms are now in place, or very darned close to being so. At South Ferry, I will model the moving platforms, and yes they *will* move, but they will be manual, and only moved in for photo shoots. ROAR |
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Re: Def Of Late Trains: |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Jan 2 13:02:18 2010, in response to Re: Def Of Late Trains:, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Jan 1 18:26:29 2010. This seems to have the potential to become another Ave Maria Grotto. |
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