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| Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? (819711) | |
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| (819880) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 11 16:41:21 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 11 16:40:01 2009. I said that Fox *created* the site ... it has NOT been "joint" since its inception, it's been joint since its ROLLOUT ... there's a big difference. And FOX still manages it despite the stock options ... |
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| (819881) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Bklyn2NJ on Tue Aug 11 16:41:34 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 11 16:39:51 2009. Nah... both started in the early 80s, both before my birth. |
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| (819882) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 11 16:42:22 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Bklyn2NJ on Tue Aug 11 16:41:34 2009. I'm sure the name will still be familiar to them then ... Mitch hid a LOT of electronics in DuMont's hiding places. Heh. |
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| (819911) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Tue Aug 11 17:21:26 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 11 13:34:01 2009. LOL! |
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| (819916) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by zac on Tue Aug 11 17:36:33 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 11 13:33:47 2009. At the time of the switch I read an article, likely in the NYTimes, about the thinking. Yes, the Brighton riders preferred the Q as the full time train, after living with either Bway or 6th Ave for the prior x number of years. (I was surveyed myself.)Then, when that routing was set, they realized they had 2 part time lines, the B from BPB to 34th, and the Q diamond from 57th to BB. So they combined them into one. That left the D to switch over to the West End as the full time line there. This made the weekday vs. weekend patterns the same, with just the part-time B (and rush hour M) the exception. Now if they would only have the D stop at DeKalb when the B isn't running... |
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| (819917) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by 15 BEECHHURST on Tue Aug 11 17:36:44 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 11 13:33:47 2009. Ok, great response, thank you. Why would it be better if the M ran to 95th? I do understand that operationally that could not happen. |
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| (819924) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by D to E to Jamaica on Tue Aug 11 17:43:14 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by 15 BEECHHURST on Tue Aug 11 17:36:44 2009. People couldn't just transfer at Dekalb? I grew uo with the D on Brighton and still miss it. I wonder how many people who wanted full time Brighton-b'way service ctually uses it. I would be interested to see the numbers before and after the swap |
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| (819932) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 11 17:51:59 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by D to E to Jamaica on Tue Aug 11 17:43:14 2009. The more people transferring, the longer you need to hold the trains in the stations. |
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| (819935) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by D to E to Jamaica on Tue Aug 11 17:58:54 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 11 17:51:59 2009. Transferring between trains have been around since the first tracks have been laid down. Growing up, a one seat ride was the exception, not the rule. (well, except for going to Coney Island from Harlem in the summer on a BRIGHTON D :) ) |
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| (819936) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Tue Aug 11 18:05:31 2009, in response to Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by edk256 on Tue Aug 11 12:41:48 2009. To confuse people. |
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| (820442) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Bklyn2NJ on Wed Aug 12 15:21:02 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 11 16:42:22 2009. I asked one, and it didn't ring a bell. He started in 1983 though. I'm sure I'll have better luck asking the guy from Master Control when I see him. |
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| (820444) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 12 15:24:39 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Bklyn2NJ on Wed Aug 12 15:21:02 2009. Ah well, one down, one to go ... :)Mitch retired somewhere around 1974-5, so about all anyone from the 80's would know is paperwork and drawings he left behind. Like I said, I go *way* back. Heh. |
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| (820451) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Bklyn2NJ on Wed Aug 12 15:35:48 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 12 15:24:39 2009. Hopefully he knows. He started in 1981. If I venture out to E. 67th, I'll ask some of the veterans there. |
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| (820452) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 12 15:39:37 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Bklyn2NJ on Wed Aug 12 15:35:48 2009. That was Mitch's castle. I'm sure there'll be plenty of takers over there. :) |
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| (820458) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by mci guy on Wed Aug 12 15:55:09 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 11 16:11:33 2009. what about the b/d switch. i told you all i rode the first shitbox through dekalb in 1967 and r32 in 1964. i love those trains. the shitboxes used to blow tons of steeldust leaving church e16 in the good old days. |
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| (820464) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 12 16:16:15 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by mci guy on Wed Aug 12 15:55:09 2009. Actually, if you're referring to arnines ... wasn't so much the steel dust as journal bearing oil on the wheel treads that summoned up that fine blue smoke I was so proud of making when I did a stop. :) |
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| (820516) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by mci guy on Wed Aug 12 19:41:40 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Aug 12 16:16:15 2009. yea R9s and the worst. |
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| (820519) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 12 19:46:32 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by North-Easten T/O on Tue Aug 11 13:25:45 2009. Plus, they already had it since September 2002 when the W train ran full time. |
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| (820520) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Aug 12 19:48:13 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by edk256 on Tue Aug 11 13:32:27 2009. With the 63rd St tunnel being connected to the Queens Boulevard line and the Q being restored to the Broadway line, it no longer made sense to run the B on weekends. |
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| (820771) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 13 12:27:29 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Aug 11 14:44:19 2009. Why? There's already service to Broadway via the R. With the WTC gone, the Nassau St. trunk serves the larger number of lower Manhattan workers. |
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| (820772) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 13 12:29:50 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by zac on Tue Aug 11 17:36:33 2009. I agree with having the D stop at Dekalb when the B stops, but the crybabies in the MTA say it's not possible with the wheel detectors at Pacific St. Never mind that the M and the N used this switch for 18 years prior to 2004. |
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| (820774) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 13 12:36:26 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by 15 BEECHHURST on Tue Aug 11 17:36:44 2009. The M would be of greater benefit to 4th Ave local riders south of 36th St. These people are stuck with spotty R-only service. The M just gets in the way on the West End. Back in 1986, the M was routed onto the West End for one reason: because the north side bridge closure resulted in a cut in Midtown-bound B service (initially it ran at a 6 TPH headway during rush hour). The M was meant to compliment these trains and provide a combined headway (B and M) which approached that of the B only before it was moved to Broadway. With the service restored to both sides the West End can get the service levels it had before the 1986 closure and the M simpy isn't needed there. The R is totally dependent on inbound trains coming from the north, as there is no yard in Bay Ridge. That limits service and prevents the M from being routed there, since the first thru M train from the north would arrive 1 hour after the first scheduled M train from the south was scheduled to leave. This means complicated yard moves would be needed. Running the trains to Bay Parkway is operationally easier, since Coney Island is nearby. |
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| (820776) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 13 12:38:34 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Aug 11 17:51:59 2009. And that mass transfer at Dekalb has increased dwell times dramatically. |
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| (820778) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 13 12:40:32 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by D to E to Jamaica on Tue Aug 11 17:58:54 2009. Since I grew up around the J, a one seat ride to midtown never existed. I always assumed everyone took more than one train to work. I envied those who had to make the most transfers. I loved going to the MONH because it required THREE trains as a kid! |
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| (820833) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Aug 13 15:15:08 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 13 12:29:50 2009. Prior to the wheel detectors ... |
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| (820919) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Aug 13 20:24:44 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Aug 13 12:27:29 2009. It does? Then why does the M only run south of Broad during rush hours and was targeted for elimination in the MTA's "doomsday budget"? |
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| (820939) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Aug 13 21:05:31 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by mci guy on Wed Aug 12 19:41:40 2009. I loved those cars - music to my ears.:) |
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| (821192) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 14 12:45:00 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Aug 13 15:15:08 2009. No, the wheel detectors were installed before that switch ceased being used in 2004. |
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| (821193) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 14 12:47:07 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Aug 13 20:24:44 2009. The doomsday scenerio was political in nature. And the M's major demand is rush hour only. Even 20 years ago no one used the M off-peak from south Brooklyn. |
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| (860446) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Nov 18 11:30:57 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 11 15:20:43 2009. Also not iPhone friendly. |
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| (860471) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Neil Feldman on Wed Nov 18 12:31:54 2009, in response to Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by edk256 on Tue Aug 11 12:41:48 2009. D would provide full time service to 6th Ave where the B only would provide the 6am to 11pm service weekdays. The Q would provide the full time service to Broadway, and Brighton at all times. Technically if the Q did the 6am-11pm service via Broadway, and Brighton, then it gives the B its share, but then it would make 2 lines 6am-11pm and what do you do with the West End? This technically would make more sense. The best way if there is weekend crowding is make the B run like the C does in having it run 6am-11pm daily, or like the 3 runs all times except late nights, just like the R does now. Problem is where do you get the funds in a financial burden now? Fleet is there, but its funding to get the B to run. Service is fine the way it is now compared to back then! |
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| (860472) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 18 12:43:37 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Neil Feldman on Wed Nov 18 12:31:54 2009. Good point and there is full time service via West End to the Bronx. Unfortunately, 6th Avenue service which was in place along the Brighton Line since the Crystie Street Connection is now eliminated on the weekends. It is a real issue. I wish they would have left the B & D as is. It is still difficult for me to accept the B as the Brighton |
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Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 14:25:28 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 18 12:43:37 2009. I couldn't agree any more. I'll send you my own version of a service pattern sometime soon as how I feel it should have been done. |
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| (860533) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Nov 18 14:37:21 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 18 12:43:37 2009. The Broadway trunk is the better alternative, especially nights and weekends, than the 6th Ave one. The 2004 service pattern corrected a mistake first made in 1967. |
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| (860689) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 18 18:56:36 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 18 12:43:37 2009. I disagree, the current set up is pretty good now.West End has a 24/7 connection to Manhattan vs. a shuttle to 36th St. And if the majority of the Brighton riders wants Broadway service, then good for them. |
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| (860804) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 20:56:39 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 18 18:56:36 2009. I agree with you there. But it's still weird that the (B) and the (D) swapped terminals and to this day, a lot of people I know who are non-railfans think that the current setup is still weird. It could be easily altered, but it's not much of a deal, so whatever. |
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| (860807) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Nov 18 20:59:41 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 20:56:39 2009. IMO The setup has been weird since 1967. Bring back the "T" Broadway West End and get rid of those IND invaders :) |
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| (860817) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Nov 18 21:09:27 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 18 12:43:37 2009. I don't. Just because "that's the way it was" doesn't mean that's the way it is and should always be. Putting the B back on the West End Line and the D back on the Brighton Line will cause West End service to be reduced to a Brooklyn-only shuttle service late nights and probably weekends. Bad idea. And why would you need two 24/7 services (D and Q) on the Brighton Line? |
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| (860819) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Nov 18 21:10:00 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Nov 18 12:43:37 2009. I don't. Just because "that's the way it was" doesn't mean that's the way it is and should always be. Putting the B back on the West End Line and the D back on the Brighton Line will cause West End service to be reduced to a Brooklyn-only shuttle service late nights and probably weekends. Bad idea. And why would you need two 24/7 services (D and Q) on the Brighton Line? |
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| (860822) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Nov 18 21:13:00 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Nov 18 21:10:00 2009. Because the Brighton line is busy 24/7. Even at 2AM I've been on crowded SRO Coney Island-bound (Q) trains as south as Kings Highway. |
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| (860824) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Nov 18 21:14:44 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Aug 11 13:34:01 2009. Thats hilarious! |
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| (860827) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Nov 18 21:18:10 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Neil Feldman on Wed Nov 18 12:31:54 2009. "The best way if there is weekend crowding is make the B run like the C does in having it run 6am-11pm daily, or like the 3 runs all times except late nights, just like the R does now. Problem is where do you get the funds in a financial burden now? Fleet is there, but its funding to get the B to run."Or you could run the B on weekends 6AM-11PM in Manhattan only - from 145th Street to 2nd Avenue. B trains would switch from the express to the local tracks between 42nd St and Herald Square and stop at 23rd and 14th Streets. |
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| (860829) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 21:22:28 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by BMTLines on Wed Nov 18 20:59:41 2009. LOL!!! And I guess the (D) should go back to Culver then! |
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| (860830) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Wed Nov 18 21:22:38 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 11 13:33:47 2009. Well we went through this all when the switch was made....the MTA congratulated itself that it was able to meet everybody's needs as people on the Brighton line still had both the B and the Q 15/5 and Broadway service 24/7.However, nobody at the time realized that the MTA intended to deprive Brighton riders of convenient Sixth Avenue service for the remainder of the time the B did not run. Everybody assumed the D would stop at DeKalb allowing Brighton riders desiring Sixth Avenue service an easy same platform transfer. But no, they discovered that the Sixth Avenue service would not be available except for an inconvenient walk from the Brighton tracks at Atlantic to Pacific Street and yes it is far more inconvenient than simply a same platform transfer at DeKalb. And when people argued, they were told, as noted here, it is unsafe to use the switches that were used for nearly a century to send 4th Avenue service into DeKalb...the wheel detectors were the excuse. Okay..nobody has ever answered why the D couldn't be sent up local on 4th Avenue when teh B wasn't running. Late night or weekend game at Yankee Stadium? No easy transfer at DeKalb...instead inconvenient transfer at Atlantic/Pacific or the #4 to Union Square...Lincoln Center yada yada yada. I still think they were catering to a politically more significant clientelle along the West End than the Briughton riders on their end. Oh well...I've moved...so it doesn't annoy me anymore. But I think, personally, it was wrong then and remain wrong today. JMHO |
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| (860831) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 21:23:37 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Nov 18 21:09:27 2009. Not necessarily. The (B) can go to 145th Street at all times and the (D) can short-turn at Second Avenue during late nights and weekends. |
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| (860832) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 21:24:33 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Nov 18 21:13:00 2009. Really? Even at 2:00 in the morning? That seems a little...unusual, but hey, let the Brighton riders live how they want. |
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| (860834) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by BMTLines on Wed Nov 18 21:25:16 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 21:22:28 2009. Ayup!! |
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| (860836) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 21:28:22 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Nov 18 21:18:10 2009. I agree, but I don't think the (B) needs to switch over at 34th Street for weekend local service. It doesn't seem like a bad idea though. Yes, the (B) should definitely run on weekends, I'm in support of that. But don't expect it to happen anytime soon because the city is in hot water. It's amazing how the (3) got late night service and the (M) now runs into Manhattan all day on weekdays. |
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| (860839) | |
Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Nov 18 21:30:05 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by BMTLines on Wed Nov 18 20:59:41 2009. The setup has been weird since 1967. Bring back the "T" Broadway West End and get rid of those IND invaders :)Amen to that statement. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004? |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Wed Nov 18 21:34:34 2009, in response to Re: Why were the B and D swapped in 2004?, posted by lrg5784 on Wed Nov 18 20:56:39 2009. That's true, obviously the R32 signs would've made more sense if the B was still on the West end, but I do see the sense it made to just suspend the B entirely at night vs having a shuttle. |
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