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| (720820) | |
EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008 Well here it is. Part three of my ongoing series of the short-lived subway routes spawned by the Chrystie Street Subway. I've tried to be as correct as possible but corrections, annotations and exhortations are welcome. EE Queens – Broadway Local The Orphans of Chrystie Street : Part 3 First Day of Operation: Monday, November 27, 1967 Last Day of Operation: Friday, August 27, 1976 Hours of Operation: Monday through Friday Approx. 6 AM to 8 PM Terminals: 71st-Continental Avenues, Forest Hills, Queens Canal Street (Broadway), Manhattan (Rush Hour Short Turns) Whitehall Street – South Ferry, Manhattan Route: IND Queens Line between Forest Hills and Queens Plaza, Queens 11th Street Connection and 60th Street Tunnel crossing the East River BMT Broadway Line between Lexington Avenue and Whitehall Street, Manhattan Length of Trip : Forest Hills – Whitehall Street : 13.64 Miles ; 48 Minutes Forest Hills – Canal Street : 12.24 Miles ; 42 Minutes Marker Lights: Green – Yellow Map Color : Orange Of all the new subway routes spawned by the opening of the Chrystie Street Subway in November, 1967 the “EE” didn’t garner much of the media attention that was focused on some of the other new routes but is was a solid and dependable service throughout it’s nine year run. It was not the first subway route to use the letters “EE” and it was not the first to operate through the 11th Street Connection between the BMT and IND in Queens and yet it became so strongly identified with that line that it is still remembered after over thirty years. History: A roll sign reading for “EE 8th Avenue Local” appeared on the roll-signs of the R-1’s when they were delivered in 1931. It was one of the eight original local routes provided in the initial planning of the IND. It was to be a local service connecting the Queens Boulevard Line in Queens with the 8th Avenue Line in Manhattan via the 53rd Street Tunnel. This first “EE” began operation on April 24, 1937 running between 169 Street, Queens and Church Avenue, Brooklyn via the 53rd Street Tunnel and the Rutgers Street Tunnel during non-rush hours. During the rush hours “E” trains would run between over the same route but would operate express in Queens while “GG” trains provided Queens Boulevard local service. Two months later on July 1, 1937 with the completion of the Crosstown Line the “E” was made a full time service and the “EE” joined the “AA” in temporary retirement. The proposed route the new “EE” would not have been possible prior to 1955. On December 1 of that year the 11th Street (Queens) Connection was opened between the local tracks of the IND Queens Boulevard Line just south of Queens Plaza Station and the BMT 60th Street Tunnel. The connection on the BMT end was made just inside the portal on the Queens side of the East River. This two track connection was signaled “GD1” for the Manhattan-bound track and “GD2” for the Queens-bound track. Initially service over this line was provided by the BMT’s Rt. 1 Brighton Line until 1961. On January 1, 1961 BMT Rt. 2 Fourth Avenue Local took over the service. With the delivery of the R-27 cars in 1960 these trains could also be identified as “RR Broadway-4th Avenue Local.” Service over the 11th Street connection was provided weekdays only from about 6 AM to 7 PM. The opening of the Chrystie Street Line would result in the functional merging of the BMT and IND divisions into a single entity to be known as “Division B.” Virtually every route of the BMT and IND would be changed, discontinued, re-routed or re-designated. There would also be several new routes, including the subject of this chapter, the “EE.” The main Brighton Local service, (QB/QT) which had previously run to Astoria was to be re-routed up the Nassau Street Line and the Williamsburg Bridge to Jamaica. The Fourth Avenue Local which had run to Forest Hills on weekdays from 6AM to 7PM and to 57th Street – 7th Avenue at all other times would now be extended to Astoria. A new service was now needed to run between Forest Hills and Whitehall Street . This new service would be designated “EE” and be called identified as the Broadway Local or Queens-Broadway Local. An early proposal was to call the new service “QM” for “Queens-Manhattan.” A fleet of 176 R-1/9’s was assigned to the “EE” which needed a maximum of 22 eight cars trains during the rush hours. Most of the R-1/9’s came from the 1100-1399 group and had the proper route signs which would read “EE Via Broadway” others however did not and which decals with black letters reading “VIA BWAY” were pasted over the roll sign readings. The “VIA” and the “BWAY” were printed on top of each other in full size letters so it was impossible to fit the complete reading into the roll sign box. Some R-1/9’s simply carried the original “EE 8th Avenue Local” readings. As time went on other car classes showed up on the “EE” the R-38’s and R-40’s were there used on and off in 1969. The March 1970 car assignment called for 106 R-1/9s and 104 R-16’s though by October 1970 this was pared back to 88 R-1/9’s and 88 R-16’s. The R-1/9s’ were ordered off the “EE” by November 13, 1970 with the R-16’s assuming most of the service supplemented by R-38’s and R-40M’s. In the middle 1970’s the subway system was in a state of virtual collapse. Derailments and fires occurred on a nearly weekly basis while virtually every surface on the subway system; including tunnels, stations and cars were covered with graffiti. Punks and hoodlums roamed the subway system and made it unsafe to ride outside of the peak hours. Riders deserted the subway in droves for the new express buses or if they did ride they did so only during the rush hours. Money for repairs was in short supply as well so the Transit Authority decided on severe service cutbacks that included the complete elimination of the “EE” and the “KK.” The last day of operation was set for Friday, August 27,1976. The last northbound train, left from Whitehall Street at the end of the PM rush with the following consist: 6432,6441,6416,6491,6398,6430,6419,6482. The last southbound “EE” arrived at Canal Street at 8:20PM and had R-38’s 4031-0,4087-6,4066-7,4050-1. The “EE” replacement was a few rush hour only “N” trains running southbound from Forest Hills in the AM and northbound from Whitehall Street in the PM. Larry, RedbirdR33 Note: This information was drawn from several sources the most important of which have been various editions of “The Bulletin” of the New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association and the rail fans would contributed to it. |
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| (720841) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Andy on Mon Dec 15 20:56:33 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. "The “EE” replacement was a few rush hour only “N” trains running southbound from Forest Hills in the AM and northbound from Whitehall Street in the PM."Not exactly. The N was extended from 57th Street to Forest Hills along the EE route during the same hours - roughly 6 AM to 7:30 PM. The only significant difference to the Queens riders was that for any station south of Canal Street (City Hall, Cortlandt-WTC, Rector, and Whitehall) there was only the limited rush hour service described above. From Canal Street north there was really no difference in service. In fact, many of the N trains were R46 consists which provided a welcome addition - air conditioning in the warm weather. During the period when the N replaced the EE I was living in Flushing and working at the WTC. On the hottest summer days I would sometimes drive to Woodside, park, and then take an air conditioned N to work - better than the non A/C IRT equipment on the #7 and then the #2/3. |
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| (720880) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 22:46:40 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Andy on Mon Dec 15 20:56:33 2008. Not exactly. The N was extended from 57th Street to Forest Hills along the EE route during the same hours - roughly 6 AM to 7:30 PM. The only significant difference to the Queens riders was that for any station south of Canal Street (City Hall, Cortlandt-WTC, Rector, and Whitehall) there was only the limited rush hour service described above. From Canal Street north there was really no difference in service. In fact, many of the N trains were R46 consists which provided a welcome addition - air conditioning in the warm weatherUnfortunately all "N" trains ran local in Manhattan southbound in the AM rush and northbound from about 2PM to 8PM. It really took the guts out of what had been a good express service to 57 Street. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (720882) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Mon Dec 15 22:55:46 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. The EE seems a lot like the current V train (except on the Broadway vs. 6th Ave line in Manhattan). I wonder if the V will only last 8 years as well. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Andy on Mon Dec 15 23:02:27 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 22:46:40 2008. True, but the idea was to provide Queens customers with the same service the EE had provided. And the N riders to/from Sea Beach did have an express in their predominant travel direction.But the 1976-87 N service did indeed confuse many riders because of its many variations based on time. |
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| (720927) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Andy on Tue Dec 16 00:21:05 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. Also wanted to add to your excellent posting that this was the first time a large group of R1/9s were permanently assigned to a route along the Broadway BMT. It's true that a few R1s ran on the Sea Beach express in 1931 when being tested; and for a brief time in the early 1950's some R1/9s were assigned to the Fourth Ave. - Astoria Local service. It was quite a letdown to see the R1/9s running on the EE when the previous week the relatively new R27/30s provided the RR Queens Blvd. Local service. |
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| (720936) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 16 00:30:39 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. Very cool! |
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| (721032) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Dec 16 07:41:23 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. Was this train the (EE) ? I don't think the Slants have (EE) signs, did they ? Location: Times Square/42nd Street Car: R40 (St. Louis Car, 1968) 4162 Photo by: Doug Grotjahn Collection of: Joe Testagrose Date: 8/28/1969 From nycsubway.org Bill "Newkirk" |
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| (721097) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Dec 16 09:52:03 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. Say Larry, I came across a service adjustment sign on ebay which stated the EE would operate to Kew Gardens beginning December 31, 1936. That's when the Queens line was extended from Roosevelt Ave. to Union Turnpike. A funny thing, it makes no mention of the E or GG lines, just the EE. |
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| (721107) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by 67th Avenue on Tue Dec 16 10:41:30 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 16 00:30:39 2008. IIRC, subway maps stated the (EE) ran during "normal hours" in the service guide. Approximately 6:00am to 8:00pm is the time I recall for (EE) service. |
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| (721116) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by 67th Avenue on Tue Dec 16 10:55:56 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Andy on Mon Dec 15 23:02:27 2008. I agree that the (N) after it was extended on Monday August 30, 1976 to replace the cancelled (EE) did generate confusion. There seemed to be three or four (N) varients, based on time of day as you said. IIRC, weekends seemed more normal as the (N) began from 57th Street-Seventh Avenue. I think the limited, rush hours (N) service to Whitehall was to supplement the (RR) as the (RR) also served Nassau Street during that era. |
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| (721117) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Dec 16 11:00:56 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Dec 16 07:41:23 2008. If I remember correctly, these kinds of trains, and their cousins were used on the EE and RR local routes, during that period. I remember the strip maps that used to appear on these trains with their white backgrounds. I believe that there was signage for the front of the train.Mike |
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| (721120) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by 67th Avenue on Tue Dec 16 11:12:38 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. Thank you for the story and for the reminder of R38s and R40Ms on the (EE). The R1-9s and especially the R16s I do remember on the (EE). Nine good years when Queens Boulevard Service was the (E) (EE) (F) and (GG) and Broadway Service was the (EE) (N) (QB) and (RR). |
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| (721121) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:12:49 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. I thought the original "EE" was born in 1933, when the first leg of the Queens Blvd line to Roosevelt Ave. opened. |
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| (721125) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:18:12 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Newkirk Images on Tue Dec 16 07:41:23 2008. That was the usual S.O.P. for both R40's and R42's which ran on routes that particular car didn't have signage for. The bulkhead signs were so large that certain groups of cars only had signage for a limited number of routes. That's why the R42's used for "The French Connection" were signed up as N trains, despite the chase being shot on the B line. I doubt brand new R40's were used on the RR, so it's most likely an EE. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:19:49 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by 67th Avenue on Tue Dec 16 11:12:38 2008. Then they got sent over to the J and L lines....where they died a slow, painful death. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:21:24 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Andy on Tue Dec 16 00:21:05 2008. Geez, where there ANY people happy with the new post-Chrystie services? Maybe D riders who got to see their line go from R1/9's to R32's overnight? |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:27:02 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by 67th Avenue on Tue Dec 16 10:55:56 2008. This all ended in April 1986 when all N trains were routed via the tunnel during weekday hours. Even the trains scheduled to terminate at Whitehall St. stopped using the diamond rollsigns (unless an R46 with original roll signage was in the consist, many were still around until 1988). I used to love this version of the route because at the time it was the longest route in terms of time to travel (as opposed to the A to Far Rock, which was longer in length). |
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| (721270) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Dan on Tue Dec 16 14:40:55 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:21:24 2008. We were happy along the Culver. The Culver "D" was all R1-9s as you state. The Culver "F" had some R32s mixed in with the R1-9s, but was not an all R32 line after Chrystie.The Brighton riders got the reverse. Waking up to find old R1-9s on their new Brighton "D" train mixed in with the shiny Brightliners. IIRC some R1-9s were assigned to the "QJ" and maybe even the "QB", please correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 17:36:13 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by 67th Avenue on Tue Dec 16 10:41:30 2008. IIRC, subway maps stated the (EE) ran during "normal hours"I always liked that phrase "normal hours." What exactly did it mean? Does this mean that other times are considered "abnormal hours." Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 17:41:22 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by 67th Avenue on Tue Dec 16 11:12:38 2008. I remember the "EE" went it first stated. It was intersting to IND R-1/9's on the BMT. I was out of state for four years and when I returned the R-16's were covering the service with some R-38's helping out. The R-16's had those inward slanting door controls over the seats and the hard gray fibreglass seats.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (721331) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Dec 16 18:05:36 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:19:49 2008. They essentially went full circle. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Dec 16 18:06:15 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 17:41:22 2008. The EE was one line I never rode on. Ditto for the KK and HH. |
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| (721333) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Dec 16 18:07:55 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Dan on Tue Dec 16 14:40:55 2008. AFAIK the only R-1/9s to run on the post-Chrystie QB were the ones in the museum train. It made one revenue trip each day, if I'm not mistaken. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 18:52:33 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Dec 16 18:06:15 2008. Steve: I don't know of any other service on the subway system that had as many desingations as the Rockaway Shuttles; at first the trains carried blank signs and it was listed on subway maps as "connecting shuttles." Then it was the "HH Fulton Street Local" followed by "HH Rockaway Shuttle". After that it was variously the A, CC , H and now its an "S".Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 19:10:36 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:12:49 2008. I thought the original "EE" was born in 1933, when the first leg of the Queens Blvd line to Roosevelt Ave. opened.The IND Queens Line opened on August 19, 1933 between Roosevelt Avenue and 42 Street- 8 Avenue and "E" trains began running between Roosevelt Avenue and Hudson Terminal. The Queens Line was extended to Union Turnpike on December 31, 1936. "E" trains by this time were running local between there and Church Avenue via the Rutgers Street Tunnel. When the Queens Line was opened to 169 Street on April 24, 1937 it was decided to institute express service between Continental Avenue and Queens Plaza during rush hours. The "E" would now run during rush hours only between 169 Street and Church Avenue while the new "EE" would cover the same route in the non-rush hours. This service pattern lasted only for a few months. When the Crosstown Line was completely opened on July 1, 1938 the "GG" became the full-time local service on Queens Boulevard and the "E" was made a full time express service. The "EE" was discontinued. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by The I Man on Tue Dec 16 19:28:01 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. Nice history lesson. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Wed Dec 17 00:22:16 2008, in response to EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Dec 15 20:23:00 2008. I was a regular on the "EE" at the end of '72 during my messenger days. My first ride on it was an R-6 mix from Whitehall to Canal on November 29 1968. A more memorable trip occurred on November 4 1969 when I ran into a solid set of R40M's dressed in their Brake Test numbers going from Continental to Lex-60. CB23 was the rear motor and the car I rode in on that trip. February 1970 saw the first instances of R16's that I recall, though they may have appeared sooner than that. I got stuck on an R16 in the jughandle one day in 1972 going from Lex-60 to Qveens Plaza - we sat and sat and sat and sat then we reversed direction and waddled back to Manhattan, traversing that switch that's no longer there in the 11th St Cut.-wayne- |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:08:11 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Dan on Tue Dec 16 14:40:55 2008. After Chrystie, the only SMEES on the F were the R-38s until the arrival of the R-40s. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:10:16 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Dec 16 11:18:12 2008. Actually, there were sveral groups of R-42s used in the French Connection. Cars with N signs were used only when cars with B signs were unavailable. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:11:52 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Dec 16 09:52:03 2008. That sounds about right. The original EE ran only from Roosevelt Av until the line was gradually extended eastward (railroad north). |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:19:51 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 18:52:33 2008. Actually, the original Rocakaway shuttle carried either A or E signs depending on which through service went to the Rockaways during rush hours. some picks the A went to Rockaway and some picks it was the E. When the late trainmaster George Abere was a M/M in the Rockaways circa 1960, he wrote a letter the the then AGS of the NYCTA Transportation Dept Leo Cusick stating that the Rockaway shuttles were neither a nor E trains and suggesting using the disused "HH" signe which the R-9s through R-10s had. AGS Cusick agreed and the rockaway shuttles were given the HH designation and when the R-27s through 38s were delivered they included signs which read "HH/Rockaway Shuttle." When the R-40s came in they had any number of different letter designations for the Rockaway shuttles including A, E and HH and there was a bit of confusion for a while but the official TA designation for the Rockaway shuttle remained HH. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:22:24 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 19:10:36 2008. I have heard that too, but I often wondered why the trains carried the single letter E designation when they ran local on their entire route. They should properly have been designated EE until express service was instituted. |
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Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Dec 17 08:38:53 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:11:52 2008. That's one destination sign I haven't come across yet - Queens-Roosevelt Av. That and World's Fair (the IND version, not the R-33/36 one). |
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| (721626) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Dec 17 08:43:34 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Wed Dec 17 00:22:16 2008. How does an R-16 waddle? Very carefully, right?:) |
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| (721758) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 13:59:05 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Dec 17 08:38:53 2008. I haven't seen any either. Fulton-Rockaway Av, Court St-Boro Hall, and Hoyt-Schermerhorn are also rare although I have seen them on some cars. Other destinations that were used and that don't seem to show up on any roll signs still in existence are Tremont Av, Fordham Rd, Utica Av, Jay St-Boro Hall and Bergen St all of which were used at one time or another in the history of the IND. For a brief time, the GG also terminated at Manhattan Av but I never saw any signs for that either. |
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| (721793) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 17 15:17:33 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 13:59:05 2008. Thanks Larry AND all for elucidating this history. Even though I was there and participated in some ways, much escaped my notice. |
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| (721808) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Dec 17 15:46:17 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Mon Dec 15 22:55:46 2008. The W is the closest to the old EE- except that it goes to Astoria. Using the old IND lettering system, the V would be the FF.(I suppose the W could be the NN or QQ) |
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| (721911) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 17 18:33:59 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:22:24 2008. Perhaps the trains ran express on 8th Ave to Church Ave, but local in Queens when the line first opened to Roosevelt Ave. The "EE" here would probably run local on 8th Ave to Hudson Terminal. It makes sense now. |
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| (721912) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 17 18:37:03 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Dec 16 17:36:13 2008. We call them "weekday hours" now. |
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| (722166) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Dec 18 01:02:22 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 13:59:05 2008. I have front destination curtains with Queens-Kew Gardens, Jamaica-Parsons Blvd, Jamaica-169th St., Brooklyn-Hoyt St., Jay St. Boro Hall, Fulton-Rockaway Av., Fulton-East NY and Wavecrest.AFAIK the entire Fulton St. line opened in one chunk from Court St. to Rockaway Ave. on April 9, 1936. |
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| (722501) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Dec 18 15:46:46 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Dec 17 18:33:59 2008. The only problem is that there is no access from the 8 Av express tracks to the Houston St Line at W 4 St so any 8 Av/Houston service would have to be on the local track anyhow. |
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| (722556) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 18 17:38:59 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 18 15:46:46 2008. Did it run via Houston or via Cranberry St? IIRC the line from Jay St. to Church Ave. section opened before the Houston St/Rutger tunnel portion did. Or maybe the whole idea of double lettered locals/single lettered expresses was bad from day #1 and not followed properly ... |
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| (722591) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Thu Dec 18 19:33:28 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 17 04:19:51 2008. To this day the Rock Park Shuttle is referred to in the TA as the H |
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| (722613) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu Dec 18 20:35:20 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by ClearAspect on Thu Dec 18 19:33:28 2008. To this day the Rock Park Shuttle is referred to in the TA as the HOfficially its still the "H". But the trains carry "S" signs. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (722614) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu Dec 18 20:40:02 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 18 17:38:59 2008. Did it run via Houston or via Cranberry St? IIRC the line from Jay St. to Church Ave. section opened before the Houston St/Rutger tunnelChris: The "A" provided the original service to Church Avenue via the Fulton Street Tunnel. When the Houston Street Line and Rutgers Street Tunnel opened up the "E" was extended to Church Avenue via Houston Street and the "A" was re-routed out the Fulton Street Line to Rockway Avenue. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (722616) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 18 20:43:40 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu Dec 18 20:40:02 2008. So my question, given both randyo's comment and looking @ PD's map[, were there ever connections allowing 8th Ave Expresses to access Houston? |
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| (722663) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Dec 18 22:09:37 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 18 20:43:40 2008. The express tracks do not interconnect and never did; only the local tracks do. |
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| (722671) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 18 22:17:21 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by RedbirdR33 on Thu Dec 18 20:40:02 2008. Gotcha. |
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| (722673) | |
Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Dec 18 22:19:26 2008, in response to Re: EE BROADWAY LOCAL - ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET , PART 3, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Dec 18 22:09:37 2008. But there are switches on the 6th Ave line allowing trains to move from local to express north of W4th. 8th Ave has none, which makes no sense. |
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