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| Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els (683809) | |
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| (685576) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:21:36 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Sep 23 11:19:21 2008. The IRT was actually operating dual service before the BMT was since 2 Av El service was operating over the Westchester Av portion of the West Farms Line structure to Freeman St ever since the line opened so the IRT would have had prior rights ti a dual rail type of contact shoe. |
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| (685577) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:22:02 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Sep 23 11:19:48 2008. Yes. |
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| (685579) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Sep 23 16:25:09 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:22:02 2008. But they were lower than the IND voltages, correct? That's the thing, the old cars were able to operate at the higher IND voltages, a testament of their robust components.Same goes for BMT stock over IND lines. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (685582) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 23 16:29:03 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:12:40 2008. In 1989 when I went to Chicago, Amtrak trains that were former NYC or NH trains operated into GCT regularlyWhat former New Haven trains went to GCT? I don't recall Amtrak running trains up the New Haven Line from GCT; only out of NYP. Sometime in the 1990s (I'm not sure of the exact year), all Amtrak service was routed into Penn Station and GCT became exclusively the domain of the MTA The year was 1991. Amtrak did it to save over $600K a year in fees to the MTA (that would be over $965K in 2008 dollars) and to get rid of the need for the shuttle bus. But shortly afterwards IIRC, Amtrak had to spend a few million to erect a fence along the West Side Line after some trespassing kid was killed. |
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| (685586) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 23 16:46:49 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:05:20 2008. You've got it backwards. |
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| (685587) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 23 16:48:27 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:21:36 2008. No, not if they didn't invent the damned thing. |
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| (685607) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:35:58 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:05:20 2008. The M-8s will have to be able to operate on that type of power since they share trackage with Amtrak N/O New Rochelle.It's the reverse case. MNR New Haven Line is 60 Hz AC. AMTK uses 25 Hz AC in Queens and through NYP. Since MNR trains always run on MNR trackage in service, the judgment was made to not build them to be capable of running off the 25 Hz AC supplied by AMTK in Queens and New York. |
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| (685609) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 17:41:07 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 23 16:48:27 2008. From the descriptions in the post, it would seem that IRT subway shoes were capable of operating with elevated 3rd rail if the ends were cut back. From personal observation, I have seen IRT subway shoes riding up on el type 3rd rail on the WP Rd Line and since, as I mentioned, joint IRT subway/el operation predated BRT/BMT joint operation, that meand that IRT shoes capable of such operation were in use long before the BRT could have "invented" them. |
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| (685610) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:42:29 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:08:15 2008. Originally, NYP and the East River Tunnels didn't have catenary, though. Olog-hai and some others have posted some very interesting images illustrating that.With AC electrification came catenary, of course. I'm also quite sure that in those days it all ran at the now arcane 25 Hz, instead of the modern 60 Hz. Part of the reason for the FL9 dual modes was probably NYNH&H cheaping out at the prospect of replacing the Cos Cob plant. |
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| (685612) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 17:45:54 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Sep 23 16:25:09 2008. Most 3rd rail operations were nominally 600 volts and their equipment was designed to operate at that voltage even though the BMT power plants usually generated only 550 V. According to a friend of mine who was a NY Central engineer, NYC voltage at the feeders was as high as 720 V allowing for a voltage drop along long distances yet the R-32s operated on the NYC just fine. AFIK, the IRT did generate the full 600 V. |
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| (685613) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:46:52 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 23 16:29:03 2008. Didn't Congress also force Amtrak's hand by effectively mandating that Amtrak operate all trains out of NYP for New York?There was a temporary switch back for a while, I think, when the SPuyten Duyvil was put out by an errant vessel. |
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| (685617) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:52:20 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 17:45:54 2008. I've heard a firsthand account that the ex-BMT A/B-type cars actually performed better when they were placed into service on some IND routes, apparently because of the more reliable potential. Any truth to that? |
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| (685620) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Sep 23 17:56:58 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 17:45:54 2008. R-32s operated on the new york central? Didn't they use under-running third rail?I know some R9 cars were used on LIRR for work service. I assume this was with 750 volts, so the extra 150 volts was not a big deal? 720 volts would give a boost in performance, I bet. By the way, do you know the distance between substations on various lines; such as subway lines, and LIRR type lines, and high voltage lines like the NJT Hoboken division? |
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| (685622) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by poobaa on Tue Sep 23 17:57:56 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:46:52 2008. True true SPuyten bridge was out and Amtrak went to GCT |
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| (685631) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 18:06:52 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Sep 23 17:56:58 2008. For that ceremonial trip, the R-32s were equipped with the under running third rail shoes. |
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| (685632) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 18:08:12 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:52:20 2008. Probably so, since the IND was providing the full 600 V. |
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| (685644) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Sep 23 18:31:40 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:21:36 2008. Yeah, dunno if contact shoes were part of BMT's "portfolio" but they had an awful lot of patents with respect to "car design" and other mechanical stuff they did ... |
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| (685682) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 23 19:36:20 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:46:52 2008. Didn't Congress also force Amtrak's hand by effectively mandating that Amtrak operate all trains out of NYP for New York?As far as that, I can't say. But Amtrak would have preferred not having to pay the MTA money for running out of GCT anyhow. There was a temporary switch back for a while, I think, when the Spuyten Duyvil (bridge) was put out by an errant vessel That happened twice, that I recall. |
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| (685782) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Dave on Tue Sep 23 22:09:59 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Sep 23 16:29:03 2008. Most of the NH trains from Boston to NY went to GCT.Turbotrain service between Boston and GCT began in 1969. In 1971 it shifted to Penn Sta. There were other former NH named trains taken over by Amtrak that ran to GCT but I can't find my list of them. |
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| (685859) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Sep 24 03:37:18 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by aem7ac on Tue Sep 23 07:03:15 2008. whatever happened to that red sox jersey that was supposed to have been buried in the new yankee stadium?The Yanks sold it at auction with the proceeds going to the Jimmy Fund. That is the Red Sox' main charity. It helps children with cancer. |
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| (685860) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Sep 24 03:39:50 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 23 10:13:52 2008. That's not even the original freize.I know. The original was copper. But it is now also part of Yankee history. The new stadium has a new freize yet. I don't understand why they couldn't at least transfer the current one. What will they transfer to the new ballpark if anything? |
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| (685863) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Sep 24 03:55:46 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Tue Sep 23 10:07:21 2008. I would have preferred a complete demolition and rebuilding of the current stadium at its present site then a new one in Macombs Dam Park. That's what they did with Soldier Field. At least the Yanks would still be playing where they have always played once the work was complete.They would of course have had to play a couple of seasons at CitiField in the meantime. |
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| (685958) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Sep 24 09:43:40 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Sep 23 17:42:29 2008. No. FL9s were bought to eliminate the engine change at New Haven. Dieselization on the NH was accelerated under McGinnis to avoid rebuilding Cos Cob. |
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| (685977) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Sep 24 09:58:02 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by trainsarefun on Mon Sep 22 23:33:05 2008. Not correct. Not only was Bay Ridge not de-energized but in the summer of 1963, long after McGinnis was gone, the NH bought 12 EF-4's from the Virginian RR to use on the Bay Ridge - Cedar Hill route. |
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| (686018) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Mellow One on Wed Sep 24 10:47:19 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 16:21:36 2008. The original Westchester Ave line of the IRT Subway was opened with el car service via the 150th St connector before the Harlem River tunnels were completed in 1904. The line was equipped with open el type third rail only to the Bronx Park Terminal at 180th St. So, both the IRT composite subway cars and the El cars used the same third rail. I believe that the open third rail lasted until the 3rd Ave El Freeman St Express service via the Bergen St cutoff was discontinued in 1948. Then the line reverted to subway type covered third rail. I do not believe that dual third rails were installed below E 180th St. However, they did exist north of there and the last set was north of Gun Hill Road until 1958. See me firts post on this subject. |
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| (686037) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Sep 24 11:23:24 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Dave on Tue Sep 23 22:09:59 2008. The Springfield trains remained at GCT for a few more months after the NEC trains were moved to Penn, but there were no former NH runs into GCT in 1989 (randy's post) for sure.
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| (686080) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Sep 24 12:37:49 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by SMAZ on Wed Sep 24 03:37:18 2008. Yep; class act. |
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| (686081) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Sep 24 12:38:24 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by SMAZ on Wed Sep 24 03:39:50 2008. Monument Park, and the office furniture. |
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| (686218) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 24 15:45:01 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Mellow One on Wed Sep 24 10:47:19 2008. If that is the case (and it does make sense) then I wonder why the IRT bothered to go to the trouble and expense of installing dual third rails in other locations. |
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| (686283) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by subfan on Wed Sep 24 17:55:19 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Sep 24 12:38:24 2008. Home plate too.subfan |
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| (686325) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Sep 24 19:25:05 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Sep 24 11:23:24 2008. 1989? Fer shere!Amtrak reduced service to GCT in November 1971, eliminating its Grand Central-New Haven trains, in order to provide connections for Washington-New York-Boston passengers by consolidating all Northeast Corridor service at NYP. Amtrak continued to use GCT for Empire Service trains until April 7, 1991, when the West Side Line opened, providing a direct rail link to NYP. |
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| (686337) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Sep 24 19:56:19 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Mellow One on Wed Sep 24 10:47:19 2008. Hello Randy O & Charles (MELLOW) See Photo BELOW  Sorry for the somewhat low quality, but RARE, images taken from an old 8mm color movie film I have (tho being sharper on movie film itself somewhat). The BRONX view ABOVE is taken from front of a wooden 3rd Ave. "EL" train, coming westerly (southbound) just past the Jackson Ave. Station behind it, looking eastward on the White Plains Rd EL over Westchester Avenue, near BROOK Ave. crosstreet. Our EL train on the MAIN-LINE LOCAL track, approaches its switch set to take it to the LEFT and onto the left side up-ramps towards the 3rd Avenue EL and Bergen Cutoff. This color film was taken around 1947, NOTE in the foreground of the White Plains Line MAIN LOCAL track we are riding on, the exposed "EL style" (and no back-face wood safety boards) 3rd rail at left of it, and NO COVERED "Subway style" positioned 3rd rail at right side of it. Also NOTE ABOVE - and IN the next "CLOSER VIEW EAST" PHOTO, JUST BELOW, again, the START of the covered subway 3rd rail beginning at right hand track right-side just beyond the switch track...where the Subway MAIN local track descends FOR STEEL SUBWAY TRAINS ONLY, at right, westward towards the eventual tunnel portal. NOTE: I recall reading a 1940's official report of an errant EL motorman who didn't read his "iron" or signals, and incorrectly took the track TO THE RIGHT with his full 6 car wooden "EL" train, westward downgrade and completely PAST the switch on track leading to the subway tunnel portal- and LOST all Electrical POWER at that point...as ALL his train's EL Style 3rd rail "Drop-Sled" shoes dropped down into open space !!! He braked to a full stop....finally realizing his error. Another Local train coming westward from behind, had to couple to and tow his "dead" train backward easttward upgrade to again make contact with the "EL" style 3rd Rail just east beyond that switch - and thus taking his whole train-legth past, EAST of, that switch in mention, for his train to reverse end again a head back WESTWARD, and switch onto the proper UP ramp track to the 3rd Ave. EL route !!! (see next photo below !) SEE PHOTO BELOW -- our westward (southbound) EL train is about to take the switch to the left and enter the UP Ramps to the 3rd Ave. EL's Bergen Cutoff.  Charles IS correct...that the portion of the IRT White Plains Road Line "Westchester & (after Simpson St. Station), Southern Blvd. EL structures from the Tunnel Portal up to E.180th Street Station (and the nearby original Bronx Park Stub Terminal Station) and E.180th St. layup yards...originally had ONLY exposed Elevated Style 3rd Rail, and, but, WITHOUT the usual catwalk-facing wooden safety back board as used exclusively on the four older Manhattan El's. That wooden "safety 'catwalk facing' back-board-plank was higher than the EL STYLE 3rd rail head ( by 1 1/2" ) and would foul the steel subway car "paddle-type 3rd Rail shoes" which protruded beyond it - and could thus lift up onto same, and OFF of the EL STYLE 3rd rails head. The line to E. 180th St was opened and operated by 2nd and 3rd Ave. EL trains in late 1904 but originally solely via the earlier ORIGINAL 3rd Ave, - E.150th St. 2-track connection. By July 1906 the subway Trains route via tunnel portal at Bergen-149th Street, was completed to this Westchester Ave EL. Thus service thru from Manhattan West Side subway also began using COMPOSITE and GIBBS cars trainsets which utilized the then-new "Subway Type Covered 3rd Rail" Paddle Shoes having 2 steel contact pads, one for EL and one for Subway 3rd rail type positions. Those shoes were angled slightly upward at the shoe tip-end for subway 3rd rails - so the end tip shoe "contact pad" plate would ride FLAT on the subway-style 3rd rail head. SEE LAST BELOW TWO PHOTOS - our Manhattan 3rd Avenue Elevated bound Wooden "EL" train is now at the top level of Bergen Cutoff 2-track up ramp structure, (at approx. Brook Avenue), facing WESTWARD, and about to curve LEFT (south-westerly) over Bergen Avenue "Cut" (and riding immediately above the lower two descending subway tracks curving left also towards their tunnel portal cut below). This trackage area starts the beginning of having the safety wooden BACKBOARD behind the EL STYLE 3rd rails...as the entire Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave EL, and including its "Bergen Cutoff-to E. 143rd St. Station" structure trackages all used that safety feature. NOTE the totally intact and "fully, as non-revenue service" functioning" (work trains, shop moves, etc) ORIGINAL 1904 connection from 3rd Ave. El at E. 150th Street & Westchester Avenue, is seen heading straight ahead Westward with 3rd Avenue El faintly visible in distance. This and the Bergen Cut both "live" connections lasted until late 1947, and were demolished by early 1950 - severing the Bronx 3rd Avenue EL from the subway line at this South Bronx location.   regards -Joe |
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| (686349) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Wed Sep 24 20:09:28 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Dave on Wed Sep 24 19:25:05 2008. Well, that was Olog's point. |
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| (686533) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Sep 25 03:51:46 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Sep 24 19:56:19 2008. Good stuff. |
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| (686741) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Cyberider on Thu Sep 25 15:50:07 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Sep 24 19:56:19 2008. Excellent and fascinating information, Joe! Looks like I need to visit Sub Chat more often with this kind of stuff posted here. |
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| (686769) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Sep 25 17:32:49 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Sep 24 19:56:19 2008. Thanks for the photos. Although my grandmother lived in the South bronx, I never saw the connecting structure since I was only 5 when it was demolished. |
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| (686812) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Sep 25 19:18:38 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 21 12:15:25 2008. Especially since the D train completely replaced the shuttle as access to the Polo Grounds. I don't know when they built the 161st Street transfer though. |
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| (686824) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Sep 25 19:58:45 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Dave on Mon Sep 22 22:43:20 2008. The Danbury branch |
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| (688315) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Mellow One on Sun Sep 28 22:34:50 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Mellow One on Mon Sep 22 08:47:02 2008.  I neglected to post dual third rail images as part of this post. A 1918 view of the E 180th St Yards showing the dual third rails.  The dual third rails at the Bronx Park East station in 1947. |
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| (688348) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Mon Sep 29 00:36:57 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 17:45:54 2008. I recall hearing that a number of motors on the R-32s were ruined on the trip to Grand Central. |
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| (688505) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by TunnelRat on Mon Sep 29 12:01:06 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 23 18:08:12 2008. no doubt about it,I talked to signal maintainers in 1964 who witnessed AB standards sliding thru stations on the queens blvd IND due to the fact that the trains were running "hotter" due to the increased voltage.once the m/m aclimated themselves to this they began braking earlier,solving the problem. |
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| (700557) | |
Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els |
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Posted by Mellow One on Sat Nov 1 12:02:31 2008, in response to Re: Dual third rails on the IRT Els, posted by Mellow One on Sun Sep 28 22:34:50 2008. Another addition to my post on dual third rails.This one shows the dual third rails south of 180th St.  The dual third rails at the Prospect Ave station in the late 40's or early 50's. The installation of those new ties probably precipitates the removal of the el type third rail. Do we have an actual date for this image? |
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| (700946) | |
Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Sun Nov 2 13:44:22 2008, in response to Re: Yankee Stadium and the old IRT 9th Ave. El Connection, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 22 12:31:18 2008. Even so, it is always proper form to attribute quoted work. Remember, SubChat does get spidered and read by others who likely know nothing about the subject or those who chronicle it. |
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