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| (628029) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by PHXTUSbusfan on Tue Jun 3 20:21:29 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. That would certainly be a sight to see. |
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| (628050) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 3 21:00:06 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. There could have been a real problem. WMATA got lucky. |
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| (628053) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Easy on Tue Jun 3 21:02:25 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. That sounds unbelievably incompetent as those stations aren't even in a tube. It should have been obvious that there were too many cars. |
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| (628062) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jun 3 21:20:11 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Easy on Tue Jun 3 21:02:25 2008. Didn't any opposing train see it ? |
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| (628064) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jun 3 21:27:30 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. A preliminary investigation suggests that the mix-up occurred as the train was preparing to leave the Largo rail yard at 7:27 a.m. to begin its run to Franconia-Springfield. Metro officials think the regular six-car train might have rolled backward on an incline and hooked up with a six-car train behind it, said Metro spokesman Steven Taubenkibel.Is that all that it takes to couple trains? Wouldn't it have been customary to check the coupler seal from the rear of the train? At Eastern Market, a station manager thought he was looking at an eight-car train that had not stopped properly at the platform, a recurrent problem. They're still ironing out the ATO kinks? |
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| (628068) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Jun 3 21:31:41 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jun 3 21:27:30 2008. what is a coupler seal? I think on most subway stock, coupling doesn't require any extra connections. |
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| (628070) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Jun 3 21:32:34 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. Isn't the operator supposed to lean out the window and check for passengers at stations when she plays conductor? Or are the doors automatic now? |
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| (628074) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Easy on Tue Jun 3 21:37:48 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Joe V on Tue Jun 3 21:20:11 2008. You would think. |
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| (628095) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JBar387 on Tue Jun 3 22:21:33 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. Wow it makes you wonder who really screwed up. |
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| (628120) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by WayneJay on Tue Jun 3 22:59:10 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Tue Jun 3 21:32:34 2008. I don't know the official rules, but from observing, but the doors open automatically. Then the train operator will look out the window to determine when it's safe to close the doors. That said, I guess the train operator would be in trouble as he/she should've noticed guard lights from the extra cars??? |
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| (628128) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Tue Jun 3 23:14:15 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. Everyone makes mistakes. The important thing is that the situation was swiftly resolved without injury or delays. |
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| (628137) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Easy on Tue Jun 3 23:22:02 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Forest Glen on Tue Jun 3 23:14:15 2008. It took 20 minutes. I wouldn't call that swift. And there were most definitely delays unless you think that it just continued on it's route and wasn't taken out of service. |
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| (628150) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jun 3 23:34:53 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by JBar387 on Tue Jun 3 22:21:33 2008. And I think the operator is being made to take the fall for many others...including the yard dispatcher for signing off. |
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| (628256) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Jun 4 07:54:28 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. Metro officials think the regular six-car train might have rolled backward on an incline and hooked up with a six-car train behind it, said Metro spokesman Steven Taubenkibel.Rolled backward ? Something's fishy here. Bill "Newkirk" |
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| (628265) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Jun 4 08:35:38 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Jun 4 07:54:28 2008. Rolling backward has already caused at least one collision deemed worthy of an NTSB write-up on WMATA. |
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| (628277) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:40:51 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Jun 3 21:00:06 2008. There could have been a real problem. WMATA got lucky.Not likely. None of the cars in the tunnel could have been accessed by passengers without going through the bulkhead doors between the 7th and 8th car. The Operator told control the train had 6 cars in it. (Number of cars in train are displayed on operators console.) The train control system treated it as if it were a 6 car train. The 7th cars would properly berth on the platform the rest of the cars would be in the tunnel. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (628278) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:41:03 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by WayneJay on Tue Jun 3 22:59:10 2008. I don't know the official rules, but from observing, but the doors open automatically. Then the train operator will look out the window to determine when it's safe to close the doors. That said, I guess the train operator would be in trouble as he/she should've noticed guard lights from the extra cars???If she in fact saw no extra guard lights it is likely the doors on the second set of 6 cars never opened. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (628279) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 4 09:41:57 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:40:51 2008. I agree with you. |
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| (628280) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Jun 4 09:48:39 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:40:51 2008. Even if that was the case, considering that we don't know whether the coupling procedure to make the 12-car set from two 6-car sets worked properly, isn't that aspect of it troubling?(Number of cars in train are displayed on operators console.) How does the operator's console register how many cars are in the train? And in this case, why 6 instead of 12? (Does it merely register how many cars are open for service?) |
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| (628281) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 09:55:05 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:40:51 2008. "The train control system treated it as if it were a 6 car train. The 7th cars would properly berth on the platform the rest of the cars would be in the tunnel."And no passengers would have gotton on even by accident after the sixth car on longer platforms? Methinks you missed a detail or two. |
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| (628282) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 10:00:48 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:41:03 2008. You hope that is the case. |
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| (628283) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 10:01:40 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Jun 4 07:54:28 2008. Metro officials think the regular six-car train might have rolled backward on an incline and hooked up with a six-car train behind it, said Metro spokesman Steven Taubenkibel.Rolled backward ? Something's fishy here. The Largo tail tracks are pretty tight space. It is likely that the train she was operating was parked on the grade just east of the Largo platform. The second set of 6 cars was likely parked coupled feet behind her train. When she moved the train in manual mode to the platform the train likely rolled backwards before the propulsion equipment started applying power to the traction motors. WMATA's rolling stock has always been notorious for rolling backwards a few feet when starting a train on a grade in manual mode. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (628285) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Wed Jun 4 10:04:55 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by trainsarefun on Tue Jun 3 21:27:30 2008. I believe they are not using Automatic Train operation anymore. The drivers are stopping the trains in the wrong locations. Someday ATO should be back on again, but not today, I believe. |
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| (628286) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 10:05:20 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 10:01:40 2008. And the coupling happened automatically.If this had happened to a pulled train (purely hypothetical here) would the engineer have noticed a different, unexpected response to his throttle at the prime mover tried to move twice as many cars? |
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| (628290) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 10:26:02 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by trainsarefun on Wed Jun 4 09:48:39 2008. Even if that was the case, considering that we don't know whether the coupling procedure to make the 12-car set from two 6-car sets worked properly, isn't that aspect of it troubling?The couplers are automatic. (Number of cars in train are displayed on operators console.) How does the operator's console register how many cars are in the train? And in this case, why 6 instead of 12? (Does it merely register how many cars are open for service?) mode. The displays will only display 2, 4, 6 and 8 cars. After coupling, switches in the cabs are set to identify that the cab as an inactive cab within the train or as an active end cab. It is akin to a terminator jumper on the last device on a SCSI chain. The cab in the 6th car her train did not get those switches set. As to propulsion control train line and the brake pipe it is my understanding those function are automatically engaged upon coupling. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (628291) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 10:34:30 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 10:05:20 2008. And the coupling happened automatically.Correct If this had happened to a pulled train (purely hypothetical here) would the engineer have noticed a different, unexpected response to his throttle at the prime mover tried to move twice as many cars? Not applicable in the metrorail case. See the last sentence to my post that responds to trainsarefun. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (628295) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by DCmetrogreen on Wed Jun 4 11:01:17 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 09:55:05 2008. The doors on the 7th and further back cars wouldn't open, now, would they? |
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| (628296) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by DCmetrogreen on Wed Jun 4 11:03:55 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Jun 3 23:34:53 2008. AFAIK, there is no "yard dispatcher" at Largo, because it isn't really a yard. It's just a set of tail tracks tunneled into a hill after Largo station. |
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| (628298) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 11:11:10 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by DCmetrogreen on Wed Jun 4 11:01:17 2008. I don't know, and neither do you.That's the problem. Safety requires that the failure mode be known and be predictable and safe. We don't know that here. |
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| (628301) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by DCmetrogreen on Wed Jun 4 11:26:01 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 11:11:10 2008. I don't knod, and neither do you.It seems Sand Box John does know: Explanation? |
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| (628329) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 12:37:22 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:41:03 2008. But she saw the lights later at another station though. |
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| (628363) | |
Re: 12 car WMATA train |
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Posted by Charles G on Wed Jun 4 13:38:29 2008, in response to Re: 12 car WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 09:40:51 2008. The 7th cars would properly berth on the platform the rest of the cars would be in the tunnel.That is only true if the marker for 6-car trains are set so that the train is perfectly centered on the platform. In NYC, the markers for short trains are sometimes at the front of the platform or rear of the platform (depending on inclines in the station or where the entrance/exit is located, I've assumed). If the marker were at the front of the platform at one station, 8 cars might have platformed there and taken on passengers. At a later station, with a centered marker the 8th car could have opened it's doors into the tunnel. My post is hypothetical -- I don't know whether all the markers are centered on WMATA. |
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| (628501) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 4 19:22:45 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by DCmetrogreen on Wed Jun 4 11:03:55 2008. Yes, but shouldn't there be some sort of terminal supervision to check the trains as they arrive and depart? I visited the WMATA control center some years ago, and it would seem that an irregular train length should show up some way on the CRT model board. I know the track circuits there are not quite like those here on NYCT, but something should have shown up to alert the WMATA traffic controllers that something was amiss. |
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| (628509) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Grand concourse on Wed Jun 4 19:47:58 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Forest Glen on Tue Jun 3 23:14:15 2008. Of course, because "this is a mere blemish of WMATA", they can do no wrong.What if this was NYCT subway? Usual incompetence? |
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| (628524) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Jun 4 20:29:20 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 10:01:40 2008. WMATA's rolling stock has always been notorious for rolling backwards a few feet when starting a train on a grade in manual mode.They never really solved that problem after the Woodley Park rollback collision, then? |
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| (628526) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Jun 4 20:31:33 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Wed Jun 4 10:04:55 2008. I believe they are not using Automatic Train operation anymore. The drivers are stopping the trains in the wrong locations.Strange... Is there an explanation for that? |
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| (628528) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 20:35:00 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Grand concourse on Wed Jun 4 19:47:58 2008. Had this been NYCTA, that conductor, motorman, and whoever touched that train in the last 24 hours would have to take a lot of crap from incompetet managers. |
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| (628530) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 4 20:42:32 2008, in response to 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 3 19:38:51 2008. The operator is on administrative leave while Metro investigates.Do they have the Operators on the Platform like they do down here in RTO?? Or is the Operator sitting home?? |
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| (628531) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Jun 4 20:45:05 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Sand Box John on Wed Jun 4 10:01:40 2008. The second set of 6 cars was likely parked coupled feet behind her train. When she moved the train in manual mode to the platform the train likely rolled backwards before the propulsion equipment started applying power to the traction motors. WMATA's rolling stock has always been notorious for rolling backwards a few feet when starting a train on a grade in manual mode.I've never witnessed any WMATA cars being added or cut, but here in Tee Yay land, at least with the older SMEE's, when cars are coupled, there is usually a loud CHOW sound indicating a successful add. If the WMATA cars do they same thing, wouldn't they let out a loud CHOW when then back cars coupled, telling the train operator something was amiss ? Bill "Newkirk" |
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| (628532) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Jun 4 20:45:41 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 20:35:00 2008. How would the managers be incompetant for giving the crew trouble for that in NYC?in NYC, such an incident would be a big problem... |
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| (628535) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 4 20:51:34 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by R30A on Wed Jun 4 20:45:41 2008. in NYC, such an incident would be a big problem...Dont ya think??? Of coruse no incident like that has ever been reported to the papers here. |
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| (628538) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Jun 4 20:53:35 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Forest Glen on Tue Jun 3 23:14:15 2008. What was resolved? |
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| (628539) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 20:54:29 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 4 20:51:34 2008. In the older days, i heard they sometimes ran some IRT cars on IND or BMT trains, but still, nothing like this, and that was the "dark ages" when lots of dtuff hapenned. |
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| (628540) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Jun 4 20:56:34 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 20:54:29 2008. Nothing like that?I highly doubt that. Besides... IND cars on IRT trains is a much bigger deal. |
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| (628545) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 21:00:12 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 4 20:42:32 2008. What do you mean on the platform? You mean like platform conduxtors, customer helpers, or backup motormen? |
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| (628546) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 21:02:09 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by Newkirk Images on Wed Jun 4 20:45:05 2008. Oh, so the cars dump? What if the car being coupled to was top-charged? Probably there would be no chow then. |
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| (628547) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 4 21:03:33 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 21:00:12 2008. You do something wrong and you get caught up in Labor Relations and if they are "nice" to you you are on the Platform until they get to your case.You dont move any trains.. |
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| (628550) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Grand concourse on Wed Jun 4 21:04:48 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 20:54:29 2008. I think some lo-v's were modidied w/extended 'platforms' at their doors so they can bridge the gap on B division platforms. |
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| (628551) | |
Re: 12 ca WMATA train |
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Posted by Railman718 on Wed Jun 4 21:04:59 2008, in response to Re: 12 ca WMATA train, posted by JournalSquare-K-Car on Wed Jun 4 21:02:09 2008. Even if its top sided you make an add said Unit(whatever cars are in the consist) will dump..Then you can watch it recharge magically by itself.. |
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