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| (503402) | |
3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Oct 16 10:14:09 2007 Did the 3rd Ave el go over another street from 145th St to Harlem River? This photo had me wondering because the line seemed to turn east at 145th St and I don't know which street the 3rd Ave el continued south on from that point to 133rd St. |
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| (503405) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 16 10:20:21 2007, in response to 3rd ave el question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Oct 16 10:14:09 2007. The street where it appears to turn off is Alexander Ave. The Lester Patterson housing projects are visible on the right side of the picture. |
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| (503408) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 16 10:29:52 2007, in response to 3rd ave el question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Oct 16 10:14:09 2007. Here is a 1906 IRT map from nycsubway.org that shows the 3rd Ave el. turning onto Willis Ave (see the left side):
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| (503415) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Oct 16 10:48:20 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 16 10:20:21 2007. Thanks. |
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| (503430) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by HarryP on Tue Oct 16 11:38:37 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Oct 16 10:48:20 2007. It ran on a double deck structure on a PRW between Willis and Alexander Aves. The lower level had a connection to the White Plains Line via Bergen Ave. |
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| (503443) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Tue Oct 16 12:14:04 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 16 10:29:52 2007. This map seems to indicate that the Bronx Park stations on both the White Plains Rd. line and the 3rd Ave. El were the original terminals, and when these lines were extended further north, they cut into the existing line south of the terminals, thus creating the two Bronx Park stubs shown on later maps. |
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| (503460) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Michael Wares on Tue Oct 16 13:33:22 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Bob Andersen on Tue Oct 16 12:14:04 2007. That's right. Both the line up White Plains Road, and the Webster Avenue/Gun Hill Road extension of the el were Dual Contracts projects. |
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| (503462) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:49:18 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 16 10:29:52 2007. Where's 191 Street on today's (1) line? |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 13:52:24 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:49:18 2007. IIRC, it was added later. It didn't open with the rest of the line. |
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| (503468) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Tue Oct 16 13:56:01 2007, in response to 3rd ave el question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Oct 16 10:14:09 2007. It was partially over an alley, Chicago-style: map. |
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| (503469) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:56:03 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 13:52:24 2007. But was it always planned to have a station there? And they simply didn't open it immediately with the rest of the line? Or did they decide at a later date to build the station?It seems strange that the IRT, with its rather predicatable spacing between stations, would suddenly jump from 181 Street to Dyckman (200) Street without a station inbetween. |
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| (503473) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 14:07:03 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:56:03 2007. I don't recall what the deal was. I'd have to research it. |
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| (503474) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 16 14:08:25 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:56:03 2007. It was pretty much all woods back then, aside from the Cloisters. Note also that 230th stop ... it was at Bailey Avenue and 230th where the Major Deecup is now ... VCP and the run up Broadway came later as well. |
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| (503475) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 16 14:09:09 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:56:03 2007. That and my next question. . .when was 230th Street station renamed to 225th Street? |
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| (503476) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 16 14:09:55 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 16 14:09:09 2007. Trains went right past it, and instead of turning to the left to hit 231, they turned to the right on 230th and went that way. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 14:14:58 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:56:03 2007. Section 14, 182nd Street to Dyckman Street, continuation of the Fort George Tunnel; 0.81 miles of two track subway. Work began on March 27, 1901. No stations were part of the original design; 191st Street was built later, 181 feet below the surface, and opened January 14, 1911.from nycsubway |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 14:16:23 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 16 14:08:25 2007. Specifically:Section 15, Portals near Dyckman Street to northern terminus over Broadway, including bridge over the Harlem River Ship Canal. Stations at Dyckman Street, 207th Street, 215th Street, 230th Street. North of the Broadway Bridge, the original route turned on 230th Street, crossed the New York Central's Hudson line, and ended at Bailey Avenue near the New York Central's Putnam division station. The 230th St. station was a two track, single island, elevated station. Service to 230th & Bailey began in March 1906. By 1907 the line was altered to include stations at 225th Street, 231st Street, 238th Street, and 242nd Street-Van Cortlandt Park; and 230th & Bailey was abandoned. from nycsubway |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by EE | Broadway Local on Tue Oct 16 14:32:10 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Oct 16 13:49:18 2007. 191st Street station did not open until 14 January 1911. The elevators, plus other work was not complete when this section of line opened in 1906. This station is 160 feet beneath Saint Nicholas Avenue and a tunnel brings one to street level at Broadway. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by EE | Broadway Local on Tue Oct 16 14:39:08 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 14:16:23 2007. So, in effect, 230th Street became 231st Street and 225th Street was added as a station between 215th and 231st? |
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| (503489) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 14:44:59 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by EE | Broadway Local on Tue Oct 16 14:39:08 2007. In a manner of speaking. But I'd rather describe it as saying the line from 230th/Baily south to where it diverged from Broadway was torn down, and then built north from the former diverge point to 231st/Broadway. Stations were then built at 231st and 225th. At least that's how I understand it, from reading that site. |
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| (503490) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 14:46:06 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by EE | Broadway Local on Tue Oct 16 14:32:10 2007. NYCSubway disagrees with parts of what you said.My earlier post |
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| (503491) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by EE | Broadway Local on Tue Oct 16 14:47:20 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by HarryP on Tue Oct 16 11:38:37 2007. As it ran through an alley, the 138th Street station did not have a transfer to/from the Pelham Bay Park line's Third Avenue station on East 138th Street. |
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| (503539) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 18:04:25 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by HarryP on Tue Oct 16 11:38:37 2007. I believe it was the UPPER level that had the connection to the Westchester Av Line since it was 2nd and later 3rd Av express trains which used the connection. |
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| (503542) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 18:13:48 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 16 14:09:55 2007. According to the original book published by th IRT in 1903, the station that is now 225 St was called "Muscoota St" and the map indicayes that the original Harlem River was not filled in at that time so in effect, that station was on an island. Also, my understanding is that the planned terminal at Bailey Av was never built since by the time construction had advanced that far, it was decided to route the line up Broadway to its present terminal at Van Cortlandt Pk. I believe it had to do with the NYCRR planning to abandon its Yonkers branch in the then forseeable future so that the original Bailey Av location would not serve its original purpose of serving NYCRR passengers form Yonkers. |
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| (503585) | |
Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL) |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Oct 16 20:22:12 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 18:13:48 2007. BROADWAY LINE CONSTRUCTIONThe original Broadway Bridge over the Harlem River (Ship Canal) opened January 1, 1895. It was a single deck swing bridge. As the West Side Branch of the original subway was being built north to The Bronx it was realized that this bridge would not be adequate to handle the rapid transit trains so a new bridge with two levels was constructed on opened for service on June 16, 1906. Due to the delay in building the new bridge the IRT Broadway Line was opened in sections as follows; 157 Street to 221 Street (temporary station) on March 12, ,1906, to 225 Street on January 14, 1907, to 230 Street (temporary station) on January 27, 1907 and to 242 Street on August 1, 1908. When the line was extended from 221 Street to 225 Street the temporary platforms at 221 Street were dismantled and reassembled at 230 Street. When the line was extended to 242 Street the temporary platforms at 230 Street were dismantled. I read somewhere but I cannot verify it that the temporary platforms from the 230 Street Station were then reassembled as the side platforms at 242 Street. If you look at 242 Street today you will note that the center platform is about two car lengths longer than the side platforms. Two stations opened late. 207 Street was completed in 1906 but was in a sparsely populated area . It did not open until April 1, 1907. 191 Street was not part of the original construction. It did not open until January 14, 1911. Regarding the Fort Washington Tunnel; It was originally planned to curve west at its north end at Broadway. However this was changed to the present alignment whereby the tunnel portal is just south of the Dyckman Street Station. This change lengthened the tunnel by about 500 feet. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (503591) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by HarryP on Tue Oct 16 20:43:24 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by randyo on Tue Oct 16 18:04:25 2007. "I believe it was the UPPER level that had the connection to the Westchester Av Line since it was 2nd and later 3rd Av express trains which used the connection."You are correct. When the structure was double-decked under the dual contracts, the upper level was connected via Bergen Ave. for express service to Freeman St. I remember riding the "alley el" as a child, and you could see the remnants where the structure had been cut off. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. |
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| (503658) | |
Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL) |
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Posted by 5119 on Wed Oct 17 01:36:55 2007, in response to Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL), posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Oct 16 20:22:12 2007. I believe, too, that the Major Degan Expressway occupies the original route of the Harlem River. |
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| (503827) | |
Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL) |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 17:22:38 2007, in response to Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL), posted by 5119 on Wed Oct 17 01:36:55 2007. Not really. The original Harlem River at that point became very narrow and shallow at that point an curved west and ran along the approximate location of 230 St. When the ship canal was constructed to permit complete circumnavgation of Manhattan, the original course of the river remained for a few years before being completely filled in. If you look carefully at the el structure in the area of 230 St you will see that there is a slightly longer space between the sets of columns supporting the structure where the original Harlem River was. As for the discrepancy in platform lengths at 242 St, both the island and outside platforms were the same length but the center platform was lengthened over the years and since the outside platforms fell into disuse, they were not lengthened. |
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| (503879) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 18:44:01 2007, in response to 3rd ave el question, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Oct 16 10:14:09 2007.  This is a George Votova picture of the upper level of the 3rd Ave El junction at 143rd St looking north showing a 5 car train of IRT Composite cars passing south through the junction from the Bergen St Cutoff. The single (express) track to the left descends to the 3rd Ave El. The two tracks to the right go to the Bergen St Cutoff. Those tracks turn onto Willis Ave and go north a couple of blocks before tuning at Bergen St to 149th St and then ramping down to the junction with the the original 150th St connecting ramp (from the 3rd Ave El) to the IRT Subway on Westchester Ave. The original portion of the El line in the Bronx below 149th St to 129th St in Manhattan was the Suburban Rapid Transit Company Line, which was originally planned as a PROW railway that was to follow the Bergen St Route to or along Westchester Ave. However, the cost of land acquisition became to high and the franchises of the New York, Fordham and Bronx Railway Company became the Bronx 3rd Ave route in 1886. The IRT subway would adopt the former route up Westchester Ave and in 1918 and the Bergen St Cutoff completed the original Suburban route. When the Suburban line 2 track structure was buit at 143rd St in 1887, provision was made for a junction to the original planned route at that place. |
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| (503893) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Oct 17 18:57:53 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 18:44:01 2007. Cool. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 17 19:09:19 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue Oct 16 14:08:25 2007. It was all Woods INCLUDING the Cloisters: They hadn't been built yet. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 17 19:10:12 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Oct 16 14:44:59 2007. Nothing was torn down, the 230/Bailey route was never built, plans were changed before anything was built. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Oct 17 19:12:59 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 17 19:10:12 2007. Well then I need to tell Dave to change his site's text, or add some footnotes, etc. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 17 19:14:05 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by HarryP on Tue Oct 16 20:43:24 2007. What do you mean where it was cut off? How was it connected before double-decking? |
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| (503923) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 17 19:23:31 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 18:44:01 2007. Thanks for that! I've heard Joe Frank mention that often, but never saw a picture of it! :) |
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| (503928) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 17 19:32:10 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 17 19:09:19 2007. So I see ... LOOKED much older! :) |
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| (503931) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 19:45:02 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Oct 17 19:14:05 2007. The connection to the Westchester Av branch left the 3rd Av structure immediately N/O 149 St station at grade. Even after the Bergen Av cutoff was completed, the original connection was retained until both were removed in the late 1940s. The remnants of the 149 St connection could still be seen until the demolition of the entire Bronx portion of the el. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 19:49:25 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 18:44:01 2007. The street on which the structure operated was Bergen AVENUE not Bergen Street. Bergen street is in Brooklyn. |
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| (503940) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 19:59:53 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 17 19:23:31 2007. I need see a picture of the lower level of the junction at 143rd St to add to my collection. |
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| (503942) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 17 20:02:32 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 19:59:53 2007. Heh. Well ... you know my fascination with the Third Avenue el ... :)Feel almost the same about the lower Myrt for the same reasons. |
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| (503964) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Oct 17 20:36:43 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 19:45:02 2007. Here are some pictures of the junction to the cutoff to the Westchester Ave branch from the 3rd Ave el shortly before the structure was demolished. |
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| (503984) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 21:12:37 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 19:45:02 2007. It was called the 149th St connector. However, the structure traversed 150th St. We had a discussion about this a few years ago because of the confusion the name conveys. So, I refer to the original connector as the 150th St Connector. I have images of the Bergen St junction on the connector. Here is image of the connector stub at 3rd Ave and 150th St.I lived on Decatur Ave in the Bronx. My cousin lived on Decatur St in Brooklyn. The next street over from me was Hull Ave. I had cousins that lived on Hull St in Brooklyn. However, Decatur St is not next to Hull St in Brooklyn. Fortunatly, I did not have any relatives in Queens. |
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| (504006) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Wed Oct 17 21:44:04 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by mellow one on Wed Oct 17 21:12:37 2007. Actually it was called the Westchester Avenue Connection since it ran along that street. The later connection built under the Dual Contracts was called the Bergen Avenue Cutoff.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (504283) | |
Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL) |
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Posted by 5119 on Thu Oct 18 11:35:33 2007, in response to Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL), posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 17:22:38 2007. Thanks. I wasn't quite sure of its original flow of direction. |
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| (504378) | |
Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL) |
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Posted by GIS Man on Thu Oct 18 14:42:57 2007, in response to Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL), posted by randyo on Wed Oct 17 17:22:38 2007. The Harlem River originally ran between W. 228th St (Manhattan) and W. 230th St. (Bronx) and then turned southwards along the west side of Exterior St, which always followed the Harlem River.During my childhood (1950's), I believe that W. 225th St. still ran on a bridge over dry land to connect to Kingsbridge Rd. at the Major Deegan. The area is now filled in and occupied by Target, etc. Bob |
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| (504383) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by GIS Man on Thu Oct 18 14:49:07 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Oct 17 20:02:32 2007. Selkirk,Great to here that. I know it's been discussed before, but I haven't been able to locate the information. Was it possible for a northbound 3rd Av. local to stop at 129th St. and then continue to the Bronx? I have some 1924 aerial photos but the resolution is not sufficient to see the tracks. If not, what was the service arrangement? Thanks, Bob |
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| (504408) | |
Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Oct 18 15:08:02 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by GIS Man on Thu Oct 18 14:49:07 2007. The NYCSubway.Org website has a set of historical maps for the Third Avenue EL. The track maps seem to indicate that Third Avenue EL trains stopped at the 129th Street station before heading to the Bronx. Check out the maps.Mike |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Oct 18 15:16:36 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Michael549 on Thu Oct 18 15:08:02 2007. Further inspection of the track map for the Third Avenue El actually does not clear up the issue. Take a look at the maps for yourself.Mike |
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| (504449) | |
Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL) |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 18 16:49:33 2007, in response to Re: Broadway Line Construction (was 3 Ave EL), posted by GIS Man on Thu Oct 18 14:42:57 2007. Now that you mention it, I seem to recall something odd about 225 St in that approximate area. It was probably the bridge you are talking about. |
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Re: 3rd ave el question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Oct 18 17:46:59 2007, in response to Re: 3rd ave el question, posted by Michael549 on Thu Oct 18 15:16:36 2007. As whatsisname once said, "lets go to the VIDEOTAPE!" :)http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/stations?1:311158 |
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