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| Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All (473875) | |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Thu Aug 9 13:29:26 2007, in response to Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Aug 9 13:03:54 2007. oh snap! |
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| (473886) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Aug 9 13:40:40 2007, in response to Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Aug 9 13:03:54 2007. New york tried, and did manage to run at least some services throughout the day. Thankfully we arent WMATA surrender monkeys. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (473889) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by Dinky on Thu Aug 9 13:51:46 2007, in response to Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Aug 9 13:03:54 2007. When WMATA closed before the strong chance of tropical storm or hurricane force winds, many on this board were very critical of the decision, especially after the storm was not as strong as predicted. Perhaps it is better to be safe than sorry.Such a response by the MTA here would have been unacceptable. Why? For starters, the NYC subway is a 24/7 system, while metrorail is not. There is a baseline expectation that the subway will operate -- perhaps at diminished levels -- under adverse conditions. WMATA's operations are not under that kind of expectation. A preventative shutdown might be OK in DC, but not in NY. There's also the fact that a substantial portion of metrorail riders are Federal Government employees. Thus, when Government offices closed, the WMATA could justify shutting down the metro. The NYC subway has a much more diverse (and obviously larger) ridership. In other words, the "my daddy's better than your daddy" nonsense that got thrown around at the WMATA on this board was inappropriate. But so is the converse. |
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| (473890) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Aug 9 13:57:23 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by R30A on Thu Aug 9 13:40:40 2007. I'm not sure if it even all of the MTA's fault. The MTA has its share of blame, but som of it, IMO, should rest with the city DEP for failing to upgrade the sewer systems. |
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| (473905) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Aug 9 14:36:16 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by Dinky on Thu Aug 9 13:51:46 2007. well said. as someone who grew up in Bethesda we always hoped for "smow days" when schools shut down that rarely happens in Chicago or NYC, the snow falls, you put on your boots, and get on with it. |
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| (473912) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:05:32 2007, in response to Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Aug 9 13:03:54 2007. WMATA > MTAI've taken both subway systems and the two are like night and day. The Metro is clean, quick, and reliable. The NYC subway isn't. When the WMATA suspended service it was in deference to the safety of its passengers. Buses can tip over in hurricane winds. Bringing people to a downtown area during a storm is asking for trouble. The WMATA had nothing to prove. Their track record over the years shows why they are the #1 system in the nation. |
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| (473915) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Aug 9 15:15:00 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:05:32 2007. #1 in the nation...Behind MBTA, MTA, NJT-PATH, SEPTA, MBTA, LAMTA, SFMUNI, CTA, and TRIMET perhaps... |
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| (473916) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:20:13 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:05:32 2007. "The Metro is clean, quick, and reliable"The first two are true; the third is true in good weather and light rain. In heavy rain and snow, all bets are off. This last rainstorm proved WMATA has zero reliability. Oh, and I guess you forgot WMATA doesn't operate between 1AM and 5AM. It's easy to be reliable when you're not running any trains at all. Hell, even you could do that! "When the WMATA suspended service it was in deference to the safety of its passengers." False statement. WMATA shut down because it is unable to operate in heavy weather. In contrast, MTA was able to keep some service operating. Passenger safety is paramount to both organizations, but MTA has no peer in keeping trains rolling. Give it another 20 years and then start comparing the two again. WMATA is a great organization, but it moves barely a tenth of the passengers MTA does, and MTA is every bit as reliable on a scale WMATA cannot match. MTA's trains could be a lot cleaner; I'll give you that. |
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| (473917) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:22:27 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Aug 9 14:36:16 2007. Try Fairbanks, Alaska. I think the schools there shut down when it gets to -50 degrees. (such wimps, I know...HA!) |
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| (473920) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:44:18 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:20:13 2007. On Friday and Saturday nights the WMATA operates until 3AM. That's more than adequate. If you compare this with this then you realize which system is better maintained. The WMATA is always expanding, always trying to set high standards, and always providing service for everyone (including disabled riders). The MTA treats its customers like sh** and have rat infested stations and urine laden elevators (among the few that actually work). Every MTA expansion project has some logistics or financial issues. The MTA always cries poverty while either hiding money or letting itself get cheated by Albany. The DC Metro takes pride in its performance. The NYC Subway is barely functional. |
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| (473925) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:55:47 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:44:18 2007. "On Friday and Saturday nights the WMATA operates until 3AM. That's more than adequate"I didn't say it wasn't adequate (for Washington's needs). It's fine. I simply said you were comparing an apple to an orange. "The WMATA is always expanding, always trying to set high standards," And until a few years ago, failing to meet them due to mismanagement, which saw, finally, Richard White ousted. WMATA's Board woke up and said publicly, "We're screwing up and it needs to stop." "and always providing service for everyone (including disabled riders). " WMATA was required by the 1974 federal transit act to equip every line to handler handicapped passengers. This did not apply in 1969, whe the first Red Line stations were planned, so WMATA gets credit there. MTA dd the same with with regard to the Archer Avenue line and the 63rd St line, both of whom were started before the 1974 law took effect. At the time, MTA had a gargantuan network to maintain, so attempting an expansion project in those circumstances (and with the city going bankrupt) is a lot more impressive than WMATA's building its first line with nothing to maintain. "The MTA treats its customers like sh** and have rat infested stations and urine laden elevators (among the few that actually work)." I have news for you. WMATA elevators break down too, and WMATA's escalators became the butt of jokes because of their breakdowns due to weather exposure and lack of maintenance. WMATA is working on that, but a lack of maintenance funds hurts. And there are rats in the WMATA system too - maybe not as many, but wait 25 years. MTA is cheated by Albany - but WMTA is cheated by several states and by DC government. Maybe the problem is you treat MTA employees like sh** and then complain when they are not nice to you in return. |
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| (473937) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by JohnL on Thu Aug 9 16:30:13 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:55:47 2007. I like your response, but you forgot: the WMATA doesn’t have any 100-year old stations to rebuild either. Unfortunatley, it’s unlikely that either of us will be around in 2069 to see how the WMATA has coped with increasing maintenance needs.Though we might not have to: a lot of concrete structures start showing their age somewhere around the 40-50 year old mark. So the next 10 years should be interesting for the original Metro infrastructure. |
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| (473942) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Thu Aug 9 16:36:38 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Aug 9 14:36:16 2007. I didn't know NY gets the kind of snow other cities do. Surrounded by water and all that.I grew up knowing that if the whole megalopolis would shut down, NY would stay open, it won't snow as much. And then, I suppose there's subways, not above ground buses only. To merit it to people being tough and putting their boots on is so baseless, I feel dirty just responding to this. I can't comment on Chicago though. Is NY one of those cities that have to let the kids go home if it gets above a certain temp? |
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| (473945) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by BMTLines on Thu Aug 9 16:40:23 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:22:27 2007. I visited Rochester once in the winter. My friends could not believe that I was shivering with a coat and sweater on, while they were comfy in just a coat. |
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| (474078) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 21:33:35 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by JohnL on Thu Aug 9 16:30:13 2007. "but you forgot: the WMATA doesn’t have any 100-year old stations to rebuild either"You're right, although one could surmise that by my mention of the first line being planned in 1969. But you're right! Agreed with your comments on concrete. I like WMATA, and Metrorail is my ride when I'm in DC. And with all those congressmemn and their aides running around (not to mention lobbyists), shampooing the trains' carpets is a high-priority task - so be it. But they do have some challenges ahead, and you've said. |
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| (474170) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Aug 10 00:34:35 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:44:18 2007. Thats where you are wrong.The METRO wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the NY SUBWAY. Metro suffered from the very same underfunding that NYCT did..by SEVERAL STATES and the DC GOVERNMENT. Also..Metro is "fairly new" compared to the NYCTA 100 year old system..so you can't compare one to the other. It's elevated structures will suffer the same way OUR concrete EL's will in the years down the line..if work isn't done to keep them "spiffy". So what if there are rats down there..there are rats EVERYWHERE...EVEN the METRO. |
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| (474171) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Grand concourse on Fri Aug 10 00:41:32 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:44:18 2007. Yes, if DC wants to be better than NYC then why not have the WMATA run 24/7 then? Then we'll see how clean and great that system is.. |
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| (474173) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Aug 10 00:46:25 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by Edwards! on Fri Aug 10 00:34:35 2007. NYC seems to have more rats than most places. I rarely see rats in LA. |
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| (474174) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Grand concourse on Fri Aug 10 00:48:19 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by Easy on Fri Aug 10 00:46:25 2007. Well how old is your system? Surely a lot younger than 100+ years. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Aug 10 00:55:09 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by Grand concourse on Fri Aug 10 00:48:19 2007. I meant that most places don't have as many rats as NYC period. Not just in the subway. |
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| (474179) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 01:16:12 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by Easy on Fri Aug 10 00:55:09 2007. NYC is rat and cockroach central. Everybody knows that. :0) |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Fri Aug 10 08:31:56 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by Grand concourse on Fri Aug 10 00:41:32 2007. Yes, if DC wants to be better than NYC then why not have the WMATA run 24/7 then?For what propose? Washington DC is a company town. That company is the federal government. The towns major employer, the federal government has only one production shift a day. Virtually every other enterprise that has a presents in the Washington DC area is there because of commerce related to the operations of federal government. Most of them also operate a single production shift a day. Then we'll see how clean and great that system is.. FYI: Metrorail doesn't perform all of it's housekeeping tasks when the system is closed in the early AM hours of the day. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (474257) | |
Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Fri Aug 10 08:34:44 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Fri Aug 10 08:31:56 2007. >>>>...the federal government has only one production shift a day.<<<One shift a day, the production part is debatable. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 08:39:23 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Fri Aug 10 08:34:44 2007. 8-) |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Fri Aug 10 08:45:35 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:20:13 2007. "When the WMATA suspended service it was in deference to the safety of its passengers."False statement. WMATA shut down because it is unable to operate in heavy weather. Ron, OPM (Office of Personnel Management) calls the shots in this town on matters of this type. They are the ones that decided to close down operations. WMATA and much of the other enterprise that exist in this company town will follow OPMs lead on decision like this including WMATA. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Fri Aug 10 08:51:05 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Fri Aug 10 08:34:44 2007. One shift a day, the production part is debatable.Point dually noted. You do understand what I am saying though? John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Fri Aug 10 08:53:47 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by Sand Box John on Fri Aug 10 08:51:05 2007. Yes I do. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by mambomta on Fri Aug 10 09:19:46 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by PATHman on Thu Aug 9 15:44:18 2007. On Friday and Saturday nights the WMATA operates until 3AM. That's more than adequate.In DC maybe, but absolutely not in NYC. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by JohnL on Fri Aug 10 10:21:28 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by SUBWAYSURF on Fri Aug 10 08:34:44 2007. One shift a day, the production part is debatable.But for some of ’em, the debates are the production part! |
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How Do Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, & Atlanta Compare? Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by E Line Fan on Fri Aug 10 11:02:51 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:20:13 2007. An interesting discussion. To add to it how do the T, Septa and PATCO, the EL and MartaRail fare in bad inclement weather? |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 11:55:56 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by JohnL on Fri Aug 10 10:21:28 2007. That's useful in winter. Saves on the gas bill. All that hot air they produce...:0) |
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| (474338) | |
Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 11:56:25 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:22:27 2007. I have relatives on the Kenai Penninsula. Not sure if they close at -50, but they only have indoor recess when it gets to -20 or -30 IIRC. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 11:58:04 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by RonInBayside on Thu Aug 9 15:55:47 2007. WMATA does not have a rat problem, and I doubt it will. Systems that prohibit eating and drinking spend less time on bug exterminators and rat issues than the systems that do allow it. There is a connection. |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 11:59:01 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 11:56:25 2007. That sounds right.TheKenai Peninsula isn't as cold owing to its being south and closer to the ocean. It's quite beautiful. I was in Alaska on a consulting assignment for the state government and got to do some river rafting there next to a glacier. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 12:01:16 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 11:58:04 2007. You are correct that prohibiting eating or drinking on the subway helps a great deal; however you are wrong if you think there are no rodents sat all in the system. As one example, above ground portions of the system are not subject solely to human interaction. |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 12:02:58 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by Dinky on Thu Aug 9 13:51:46 2007. In other words, the "my daddy's better than your daddy" nonsense that got thrown around at the WMATA on this board was inappropriate.A point I made a few years ago, but it fell on deaf ears. I do think your post is a good one. I'm well aware of the apples vs. oranges comparisons here, but the reality is that the NYCTA is not significantly better at handling these types of situations than any other system, even though the approach differs (opening vs. shutting). The DC Metro is unique in that the majority of its ridership works for a single employer, and that many other non-federal government businesses (i.e. lawfirms) close if the federal government is closed. Once all that happens, very few people actually need to go anywhere, so transit can shut down fairly easily. |
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Re: How Do Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, & Atlanta Compare? Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 12:03:14 2007, in response to How Do Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, & Atlanta Compare? Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by E Line Fan on Fri Aug 10 11:02:51 2007. I lived in Philadelphia and Boston. I was able to ride SEPTA and the T during inclement weather. I am not saying there were no disruptions. |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 12:07:57 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 12:02:58 2007. Dinky made a good point, but the fact that WMATA's MO allows it to make an easier decision to shut down also leads to the inevitable - that it does not need the capability to operate under extreme conditions. So it jettisons that capability (why spend money and build expertise in something you don't have to do?)"but the reality is that the NYCTA is not significantly better at handling these types of situations than any other system" False statement. NYCTA is head and shoulders above any other systyem in North America in bewing able to do that, because it has to. |
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Re: How Do Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, & Atlanta Compare? Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by chuchubob on Fri Aug 10 12:17:21 2007, in response to How Do Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, & Atlanta Compare? Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by E Line Fan on Fri Aug 10 11:02:51 2007. Freezing rain is the only weather problem that bothers PATCO. PATCO calls in extra crews and runs all the six-car trains they can during freezing rain and major snowstorms. |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 12:34:00 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 12:07:57 2007. It isn't the flawless operation that some on this board think that it is or expect it to be. That is the point I'm trying to make. Being a commuter in NYC under those circumstances can be quite a bad experience, just like it is in many other cities. And like in other cities, you eventually get to work, but not without inconvenience and some level of stress. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 12:34:53 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 12:01:16 2007. Not having a rat problem is different than not having any rodents in the system. Since I highly doubt WMATA policy for eating and drinking will change in 25 years, I don't think rodents will be the problem you forecast. |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by transitbuff on Fri Aug 10 12:43:51 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Aug 9 13:57:23 2007. Why should Bloomberg throw HIS billions into the sewer? |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 12:54:32 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 12:34:00 2007. "It isn't the flawless operation that some on this board think that it is or expect it to be."That is a true statement. However, it is not the same as saying that NYCTA is no better than any other system at dealing with inclement weather. In fact, it is. In NYC you get reduced service, sometimes seriously restricted service, in bad weather conditions, depending on wind, flooding, snow blizzard whatever may be the case. In DC you can get no service at all, which quite a different experience. If you work for the federal government or in support of the federal government with a lobbyist firm, law firm etc., that's fine because your employer isn't open for business. If you don't work for one of them (a minority of people in DC), then you're phucked. You'd be far better off in NYC. It's not even close. |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 13:12:38 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 12:54:32 2007. WMATA's most recent snow closure was the result of a decision to transport people who were already downtown and had been encouraged to get to the MCI Center on Metro home. This impacted the agency's ability to move its trains underground. Take your pick. Get the people at the arena home, or stand them so that service can run the next day. Something tells me that many on this board would somehow pick both options despite that not being a choice... |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 14:32:19 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 13:12:38 2007. WMATA needs to do what is appropriate for WMATA's geography and customers and within WMATA's ability to perform. That's fine. |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Aug 10 15:07:34 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 12:34:53 2007. Humm..care to explain why I saw a "rat" at Metro Center, August 1992..when I lived in Mount Pleasant?Nahhh..that could NOT have happened..according to You..there ARE no rats in the Metro tunnels! |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Aug 10 15:09:44 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 11:55:56 2007. So THATS why it smells like rotting eggs there... |
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Re: Myths about WMATA |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 15:14:50 2007, in response to Re: Myths about WMATA, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 12:34:53 2007. Since you already underestimate trhe problem, I don't see how an aging system combined with an underfunded maintenance program will avoid increasing a problem that already exists. |
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Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Aug 10 15:58:19 2007, in response to Re: Maybe WMATA's Responses Aren't So Pathetic After All, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Aug 10 14:32:19 2007. Nice to see that you recognize that. Now, if only other people realized... |
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