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| (384882) | |
THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 09:21:57 2007 THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET PART 1 AN OVERVIEW OF CHRYSTIE STREET AND THE RJ – FOURTH AVENUE – NASSAU STREET LINE Preface: Chrystie Street is a thoroughfare on the lower East Side of Manahattan that runs from Houston Street south to Canal Street. It is bordered for all of its length by the Sara D.Roosevelt Park. Its certainly not the longest street in Manhattan being barely a mile long, if that and yet because of the subway line that was constructed here in the 1960’s the name “Chrystie Street” is known far and wide. Subfans from Bora Bora to Walla Walla, and from Perth (Austrailia not Amboy) to Canarsie have heard of it. Chrystie Street was a play with three acts. The first act began on November 26,1967 with the opening of the subway line connecting the BMT Manhattan Bridge Line with the IND 6th Avenue Line at Broadway-Lafayette Street. A day later the express track of the 6th Avenue Line between 34 Street and West 4 Street opened for service. The second act began on July 1, 1968 with the extension of the 6th Avenue Line to 57 Street and the opening of the line between the aforementioned Broadway-Lafayette Street Station and the BMT Centre Street Line at Essex Street. The third and final act came in August of that year and saw the several service adjustments that completed all the new routes and services. The D swapped its daytime Brooklyn terminal with the QB and the QJ .The GG was extended to Church Avenue and the F began rush hour express service on the Smith Street and Culver Lines. The first act is what concerns us here. The opening of the Chrystie Street Subway merged the IND and BMT into a single system known as “Division B.” The IND letter system of route identification was extended to all BMT Lines. It had been used been in use in a limited way on the Southern Section of the BMT since the early sixties. Every subway line including those of the IRT (Division A) was assigned its own color. The November 1967 Edition of the subway map was awash in a kaleidoscope of colors. Almost every subway line had either its route or its designation changed. Three of the new lines that were created, the JJ,NX and RJ had very short service lives and because of this are little known . This is compounded by the fact that the subway map frequently had conflicting and incomplete information in the service guide. This is a discussion of those lines. The RJ – Fourth Avenue-Nassau Street Line Began service: Monday, November 27, 1967 Ended service: Friday, June 28, 1968 The Route: 168th Street – Jamaica Avenue, Queens 95th Street – 4th Avenue, Brooklyn via the Williamsburg Bridge and the Montague Street Tunnel Distance: 21.81 Miles Running Times: 70 Minutes - express 78 minutes – local Stations: 49 Map Color: Red The RJ was listed on the front of the subway map as a “Special Rush Hour Service” which also included the NX,QB and 5 (Thru-Exp). It was a somewhat arbitrary designation as several other rush hour routes were not included. The service guide stated that the RJ ran during the AM rush northbound and the PM rush southbound as a “local” service. The reverse side of the map contained a strip map with the following information: Trains operate during rush hours Mon-Fri. During the PM rush from 6:20 to 6:55 RJ trains operate express along Broadway Brooklyn. Now how could a train that is listed as running in one direction only on the front of the map suddenly start running in both directions by the time it reached the back of the map? More intriguing, how could a train listed as running as a southbound local on the front of the map run as an express on the reverse side. Especially as it would be running express southbound at the same time that the QJ was running express northbound on the Broadway Brooklyn Line. The Broadway Brooklyn Line is a three track line and the center express track can only be used in one direction at a time. As we shall see the RJ ran express in both directions in the rush hour and certain trains did run express on the Broadway Brooklyn Line. SERVICE DURING THE AM RUSH Northbound service: A total of five trains left 95 Street from 7:46 AM to 8:33 AM. The 7:58 and 8:10 departures ran all the way to 168th Street while the other three terminated at Eastern Parkway . These trains made all local stops. Southbound service: A total of five trains left 168th Street from 5:28 AM to 6:19 AM and ran to 95th Street . The first four trains made all local stops while the last one ran express on the Broadway Brooklyn Line from Eastern Parkway to Essex Street. It was the first southbound express of the day on the line. Note that the southbound service from Jamaica filled a service gap between the last JJ departure to Broad Street at 5:13 AM and the first QJ departure to Brighton Beach at 6:29 AM. SERVICE DURING THE PM RUSH Northbound service: Six trains leave 95th Street from 5:37PM to 6:25 PM and run to 168th Street. The first five ran express from Essex Street to Eastern Parkway with the 6:14 PM departure closing out the days express service on the Broadway Brooklyn Line . The last departure at 6:25 PM makes all local stops. Note that the northbound service fills a 45 minute gap in northbound QJ service. Southbound service: Five trains leave Eastern Parkway and make all stops to 95th Street. There is no southbound PM rush service from 168th Street. The RJ ended service on Friday, June 28, 1968. Its replacement was an RR Nassau Street – Fourth Avenue Local between Chambers Street and 95th Street via the Montague Street Tunnel. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by TonyBroadway on Sun Feb 11 09:41:03 2007, in response to THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 09:21:57 2007. Nice post with great research! By the way...when did the "Brown Diamond" R finally die? |
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| (384939) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by andy on Sun Feb 11 10:57:19 2007, in response to THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 09:21:57 2007. Thanks for the info. It appears that the main reason for running the RJ was to provide peak service between the 4th Ave. Line and the Nassau Loop (later the diamond brown R). The RJ did little for Broadway-Jamaica El riders except to supplement the QJ and JJ and fill service gaps in the early shoulder periods. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (384948) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Feb 11 11:13:33 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by TonyBroadway on Sun Feb 11 09:41:03 2007. The Brown R died on Friday, April 28, 1986, two days beforevthe first Manhattan Bridge closing on the north side and the introduction of D/Q skip/stop on the Brighton line and the M to West End three days later. |
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| (384949) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 11:14:00 2007, in response to THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 09:21:57 2007. Thank you very much for this wonderful, informative post. If you have knowledge of or access to similar information about other aspects of subway history and defunct routings, and you are inclined to post about it, feel free. I for one will definitely be reading. (I may even want to print and read it over a meal!) |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:04:31 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Feb 11 11:13:33 2007. Wrong. The "brown R" wasn't even born until May 1987 and was eliminated on 11/24/87. The M and Nassau St. R routes co-existed on 4th Ave for more than a year and a half. In it's final year, it never operated as seen on the maps. During the morning rush, most trains leaving Metropolitan Ave. were diamond R's headed for 95th St. Only a few M's to Bay Parkway were scheduled. Almost all the M trains headed northbound from Bay Parkway were put-ins from Coney Island. I wish I had a camera to document this service pattern, because if you did not experience it as a rider, you'd never know it ran this way. |
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| (384986) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:15:32 2007, in response to THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 09:21:57 2007. The logic behind this routing escapes me. There was no reason to run these specials to or from 168th St. Given that the KK did not as yet exist, and Broadway Brooklyn needed a local, why not merge the functions of both the RJ and JJ, having the RJ run to/from Atlantic Ave? Yes, this would mean more trains, but service not needed on 4th Ave could have been truncated at Canal St. Why confuse Jamaica line riders with differing route markers which were virtually meaningless to them? Had this route survived past 7/1/68, it would have given the Jamaica line THREE different rush hour routes. That's excessive, even back then. Great stuff as always, Larry. |
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| (384987) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:21:17 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by andy on Sun Feb 11 10:57:19 2007. The brown diamond R existed for only half a year in 1987. From it's introduction in 1968 until May 1987, it was represented on maps as the same color the main R/RR line was (green from '68 to '79, yellow from '79 to '87). Signage on trains never sported a brown diamond R sign, as these signs didn't appear until after the route was eliminated. |
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| (384994) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:32:13 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by TonyBroadway on Sun Feb 11 09:41:03 2007. It was executed on 11/24/87. It was replaced by more M service, at least north of 36th St. |
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| (384995) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 12:32:45 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by TonyBroadway on Sun Feb 11 09:41:03 2007. when did the "Brown Diamond" R finally die?The designation of the "RR Nassau Street-Fourth Avenue Local" has always caused confusion. The RR Nassau Street- Fourth Avenue Local began operation on Monday, July 1, 1968. It was identifed with a green line the same as the RR Broadway-Fourth Avenue Local. The only diferrence was that the service on Nassau Street was shown with dashes and not a solid line idicating a rush hour service. This wasn't so much of a problem when every subway line had its own color. The 1979 Edition of the subway map which was issued in June of that year simplified the color identification system by assigning a single color to each mainline. The color for the Broadway Line was yellow so all three Broadway routes; N,QB and RR were yellow either with a circle or a diamond. The diamond being for rush hour service. The Nassau Street Line became the brown line and so did its two routes the J and M. For whatever reason the TA chose to identify the Nassau Street RR servvice with a yellow color and shown it as a branch of the Broadway RR. This continued with the elimination of double letters effective with the subway map issued on May 10, 1985 although the official date of the changeover was actually a year later on May 5, 1986. We still had two yellow R's. Finally with the May, 24, 1987 subway map the Nassau Street R was given a brown color while the Broadway R retained its yellow color. Effective on this date also the Nassau Street R was virtually merged with the M and there was a through routing of train between Metropolitan Avenue and 95th Street. Trains carried M signs on the front rollsigns in one direction and R signs in the other direction. This lasted only until November 23, 1987 when Fourth Avenue-Nassau Street service was discontinued. The last train had cars (s)4878-,4850-1,4897-6 and 4937-6 (n). Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 12:43:45 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:15:32 2007. The logic behind this routing escapes me.Chris: You hit the nail on the head. There was very little logical about the Chrsytie Street Connection from the get go and we've spent 40 years trying to figure it out. However from a purely railfan persepctive it was "nirvana." WEe had so many interesting and conflicting routes and misroutes. Almost any piece of equiptment could turn up on any line. You were never quite sure what train would show up at what station or where it was going. (Sometimes the crew didn't even know). About the only thing we didn't see was a Standard on the Myrtle El south of Broadway. (Now that would have been news.) Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (385003) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:44:49 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 12:32:45 2007. Thanks for correcting the date of elimination. I used to have a service notification poster I stole from the Court St. platform, but I lost it. I'm surprised this route wasn't killed off when the N/R swap was made that May. The main reason for the Nassau St. R route (to provide Nassau St. service to riders of 4th Ave trains which did not stop at Dekalb during the rush) was pretty much negated when the M was shifted from the Brighton line to the West End line in April '86. Once the R swapped terminals with the N in Queens in May '87, it's headways increased and the secondary reason for it's existence (to augment the yellow R and provide extra local service between Pacific and 95th Sts) was eliminated. 4th Ave was choked with half-empty M and R trains in it's final months, while the other 3 routes were usually packed nearly to crush levels. I've also wondered what was the logic behind running the M express on 4th Ave and the N local from 1986 to 1994. This made the M virtually useless south of Pacific outside rush hours. And it made Sea Beach riders suffer even more after it was taken off the Manhattan Bridge. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Feb 11 12:47:38 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 12:43:45 2007. Chris: You hit the nail on the head. There was very little logical about the Chrsytie Street Connection from the get goSo didn't the planners know what they were doing? |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 12:53:39 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 12:43:45 2007. Definitely WOULD have been news ... as they tried to fish the standards AND the steelwork out of the crater on Myrtle Avenue when the structure collapsed. It had a hard time with the woodies. :( |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:01:01 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 12:43:45 2007. Yes, but railfan nirvana meant commuter chaos. If I were alive in 1967, I'd have done it this way: QJ: 168th to Stillwell via Brighton (unchanged) JJ: Atlantic Ave. to Chambers St, rush hours M: Metropolitan Ave. to 95th St. The first 5 or 6 M trains leaving Metro would run to 95th, then all remaining would run to Broad St. The trains to 95th would then run north, providing the peak Nassau St. service the RJ was intended to provide, running back to Metro. This gives the southern division BMT riders the Nassau St. service needed, and it does not include any meaningless and confusing routes to their Eastern Division cousins. Same thing in the afternoon, only in reverse order. Now, if I really had my way back in 1967, I'd have eliminated the QJ, turned the QB into a weekday route and have it be the only Brighton local, and I would have run the M to Ditmas Ave via a rehabbed, double tracked Culver shuttle structure. But we all know that spending money to restore an elevated structure in 1967 was just not gonna happen. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:03:34 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 12:53:39 2007. I doubt one trip up and down the el below Broadway would have collapsed the structure. I still see little difference between the old el structure here and the existing J train along Fulton St. |
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| (385019) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:04:41 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:04:31 2007. R train to Metropolitan? Definitely never knew that. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:05:19 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Feb 11 12:47:38 2007. With all the confusing routes and the rainbow of colors introduced in 1967, I still remain convinced that there was massive LSD use in MTA upper circles at the time. |
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| (385022) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:08:16 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:04:41 2007. Oh, yes. Especially in 1987 after the N/R switch. Almost every train leaving Metro between 6:30 and 8 AM were signed as diamond R's, and ran to 95th. IIRC, only three morning M runs were scheduled, one of which ran all the way to Stillwell and went OOS there (I rode this train almost every day during the summer, and it was always the same, dirty R27 consist). |
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| (385023) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:08:50 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:44:49 2007. I believe there were switching issues at 36 St, such that they did not want trains merging/diverging at that location. I agree that it was a very annoying system indeed and remember it well. It felt so good to see the N running express again, because it had been a complete local via tunnel all times! |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:10:18 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:08:50 2007. I remember that they DID run the N express....on weekends. Made no sense to me. |
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| (385031) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:15:32 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:10:18 2007. I don't remember that. I remember 6-car B trains being the only express weekends, ending at Queensbridge. I thought maybe there was a time, however, when it ended at West 4th, probably around the time the yellow S (Queensbridge to 57th St) existed, and did that yellow S go to 34th St ever or only 57th St?Of course outside of rush hours when the need to keep things moving is a little relaxed, maybe the switching issues at 36th/4th didn't apply, and 4th Ave Local only needs one service weekends anyway, as long as the R did it's job, which of course is questionable. Another question: Was the B the last line to have less cars depending on time of day? And did they make it less than 6 cars at night when it was only a shuttle? |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:19:25 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:03:34 2007. El structures freak me out in general, especially when entire stations shake. I leave it up to pure probability that nothing will happen when I happen to be around! I posted about this once when I asked how often and by what method is structural integrity reviewed. I don't remember getting a clear answer. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Feb 11 13:22:11 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:01:01 2007. Now, if I really had my way back in 1967, I'd have eliminated the QJ, turned the QB into a weekday route and have it be the only Brighton local, and I would have run the M to Ditmas Ave via a rehabbed, double tracked Culver shuttle structure. But we all know that spending money to restore an elevated structure in 1967 was just not gonna happen.IAWTP - in fact, this is beginning to look rather familiar. How about also making the following changes from the actual 1967 plan: (B) part-time Brighton Express (D) full-time West End (NX) don't be so silly (RR) to Continental, (EE) and (N) to Astoria |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 13:37:22 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:03:34 2007. The Myrt was older and in worse shape. You're right, it probably might have survived ONE round trip perhaps ... but bolts and rivets hadn't been tightened up in decades and the steelwork was MIGHTY flimsy. Perhaps THIS picture might help to demonstrate just how flimsy it was compared to what folks are used to seeing today:
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:37:38 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:15:32 2007. The 6 car B trains I do remember, but that dates to 94-95. The N and M swapped positions on 4th Ave in the spring of '94. They also ran 4 car C trains during this era. I have heard, but I never saw that the late night West End shuttle used 4 car R68 consists and it was one of the first uses of OPTO in the system. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:39:09 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 13:19:25 2007. El structures are designed to move, to prevent stress on the metal. If they didn't, I'd be more scared. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:43:29 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Feb 11 13:22:11 2007. The MTA wanted to show off it's new 6th Ave. connection, so there's no way they'd have instituted the service pattern we see today. The 1967 plan favors the IND routes running on the southern division BMT lines, to the detriment to those who used them. Brighton local riders suffered the most. Today's pattern is by far the most logical, favoring Broadway on the weekends over 6th Ave. |
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| (385062) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:46:55 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 13:37:22 2007. It looks stronger than the existing structure between Van Siclen and Alabama on the J. The only difference is that the lattice steelwork on the support structures was criss-crossed, which is probably why it could support more weight. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 13:52:18 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:43:29 2007. Actually, it was a bit more cynical than that ... who was the governor at the time? And what well-known "Center" is on "Avenue of the Americas" (are ya LISTENING, Allende?) around 50th? Ayup ... THAT'S why! Not kidding, Ronan STILL was more concerned about anything bad happening on "Avenue of the Americas" that he'd jam ANY other part of the railroad to keep things from dying THERE. B&D trains to Queens, F's and KK's to the Bronx, whatever it took to "clear the Rocky and Bullwinkle show." But THAT is why it was so critical. Once upon a time, it WAS possible to route an 8th avenue local into DeKalb as well but that option was never taken. It was ALL about ... ROCKEFELLER Center ...Anything else could be routed to Jersey for all Ronan cared. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 14:04:23 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:46:55 2007. It would have to be. I knew quite a few people who worked the lower Myrt and they all worried about it. We all know els "shake" but the Myrt CREAKED and shook even when nothing was moving. Just the WIND did the trick. And like I said, all those rivets hadn't been tightened or painted in decades. MANY were MISSING. :(The old Myrt would have fallen down under its own weight in a couple more years - in fact service ended earlier than planned because a truck hit one of the pillars above Bridge/Navy and TA engineers refused to sign off on reopening it for any period of time. It definitely needed to be rebuilt and MTA was unwilling to spend THAT much money to do so. *Damned* shame ... I rode it often and absolutely loved it every bit as much as my own precious Third Avenue El in da Bronx. And for as rickety as that had gotten, it was in FAR better shape than the Myrt when it came crashing down. :( GOD BLESS THE OLD MYRT! |
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| (385071) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 14:05:09 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:37:38 2007. Do you mean the C had 240 ft. trains? (Less than 1/2 the platform) |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 11 14:30:08 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 13:52:18 2007. FWIW, local papers in Bklyn screamed to no avail for a return to Bway. Ironicly the major advantage of Chrystie may have been the ability to route around the failing Manhattan Bridge. |
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| (385104) | |
Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 14:48:59 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 11 14:30:08 2007. For sure ... main reason for the construction and all that came after it was the new development along "Avenue of the Americas" and all them shiny new buildings going up. Same happened again a few years later when WTC went up, and will happen again when the Javits area starts building up. The "new and shiny" gets the best service ... |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Feb 11 15:02:34 2007, in response to THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 09:21:57 2007. Larry, I've always enjoyed reading your encyclopedia post, and this is no exception, much better than Wikipedia.But yes, the routings were devised by a full-time railfan and were too confusing to the average Joe or Jane. It was so confusing that even a D train got lost in Queens. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 15:24:15 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Feb 11 14:05:09 2007. 60' X 4 indeed = 240'. J and M trains also got cut in half, the practice on the J lasting well into 1997. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 15:28:17 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 11 14:30:08 2007. South Brooklyn was far better off post-Chrystie than pre-Chrystie, but the service pattern using the new connection(s) was botched to the extreme. Only NOW is it being exploited for maximum benefit. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 11 15:32:16 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 14:04:23 2007. The shakiest place on that line was inside the old B'way/Myrtle tower on a windy, wintery day. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 11 15:35:31 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 13:52:18 2007. Don't forget to say "Top of the Rock", otherwise you get written up! |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Feb 11 16:20:45 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 13:43:29 2007. The MTA wanted to show off it's new 6th Ave. connection, so there's no way they'd have instituted the service pattern we see today.Interesting how the KK didn't survive in a way... |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 16:40:22 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 11 15:35:31 2007. Sheesh ... wonder when they're going to require on the D train at Fordham, "Uptown, it's Alexanders." Oh wait, they gone. :)Can't wait for them 160's to come in so the voice of Mister Ed can say it instead while I frantically punch local recycle to phuck it up. Heh. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Feb 11 16:44:26 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Feb 11 15:02:34 2007. IAWTP!Larry, would you mind asking Dave Pirmann to put it on nycsubway.org? |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Feb 11 16:47:43 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 14:48:59 2007. True. Today, 6th av still has first class service (and Broadway's very good too - it helps to have the bridge working fine). And the 7 extension will boast a fancy new terminal for a fancy new neighborhood... |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Feb 11 17:10:28 2007, in response to THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 09:21:57 2007. I'm pretty sure the RJ was intended only to be a temporary service until they could extend a crossover north of Chambers St so that both former Nassau loop tracks could be used for relays and mid-day layups for 4th Av-Nassau service. The new switches were completed in July 1968 at the same time the Essex-Broadway Lafayette service (KK) began. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by TonyBroadway on Sun Feb 11 17:32:07 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:04:31 2007. No, I was talking about the rush-hour R from 95th to Chambers...I do believe it was eliminated in 1987, that makes sense, but as RR I'm SURE the service I'm talking about (Nassau special, 95th Bklyn to Chambers St. Manh) started in 1968-67. |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by TonyBroadway on Sun Feb 11 17:52:37 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Feb 11 12:04:31 2007. Oh, I get it...I didn't mean the "Brown Diamond" as in the actual brown diamond used to SHOW the service..I meant the actual service pattern, not the color bullet-I remember when the service was shown with a yellow diamond with a black "R" inside it...I remember when it became a brown diamond with a white "R" inside, in 1987, when they did the double-letter elimination. Sorry for the confusion! |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 18:13:18 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Feb 11 15:32:16 2007. Never worked out there, but I can only imagine from how shaky the rest of it was south of there. Since I was already used to the lower 3rd avenue Bronx el, didn't bother me much. :) |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 18:47:44 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Feb 11 16:44:26 2007. I don't have Dave's e-mail address and anytime I made a request for information at NYCsubway.org I get no response. I must be doing something wrong and my query is getting lost in cyberspace.Thanks for the kind words though. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sun Feb 11 18:48:46 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Feb 11 15:02:34 2007. Dave: Thnak you. I miss your weekly update of service diversions.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Feb 11 18:54:52 2007, in response to Re: THE ORPHANS OF CHRYSTIE STREET, PART 1 THE RJ, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 11 18:13:18 2007. Could some of the issues with the RJ train resulted from the fact that the RR/R lines did not have their own train yard until the Queens switch of the N and R lines? Yes, some R trains could travel up the Westside line from Coney Island or the current N route to reach 36th or 59th Street and then resume local R service, getting those same times to service 95th Street would be difficult.Maybe the whole RJ situation was not really about passenger service but in moving trains to where they are needed at certain times. The passengers simply take what's going their way. Remember that was in the days when train signage could be changed at will and at the same time was not a great emphasis. Today when the #2 and #5 routes use the same equipment on other line it is easier to tell what has happened. Just a thought. Mike |
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