Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars

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Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 22 08:42:04 2006 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars THE JOURNAL NEWS (Original Publication: February 22, 2006) New M8 trains How many: 350 cars (100 to expand the fleet, 250 replacements) Estimated cost: $3 million per car, or about $1.05 billion Why so expensive: Dual power, third rail and catenary line Who pays: Connecticut, 65 percent; Metro-North Railroad, 35 percent Proposals due: April 13 Bid awarded: End of 2006 Arrival date: First cars, end of 2008 or early 2009 After putting up for years with worn-out, deteriorating rail cars, New Haven Line riders could wind up with the most comfortable seats in the Metro-North Railroad fleet, but they'll have to wait awhile longer to get them. The railroad wants the new M8 rail cars — scheduled to arrive in late 2008 or early 2009 — to include the best elements of the latest M7 cars on the Harlem and Hudson lines, but none of those trains' design bloopers. That means passengers will have sealed traction motors and electrical systems housed inside the cars, to keep them going during and after storms. They'll also have large, bright windows, headrests for everyone and vacuum-sealed holding tanks to keep toilet odors at bay. What they won't have are the armrests that catch and rip M7 passengers' coats and pants pockets, costing the railroad more than $30,000 for repairs and riders' goodwill. But the best news for New Haven Line riders — an average total of 55,818 on weekdays — may be that the new cars will be six inches wider than the line's current M2 model, built in the 1970s. That could lead to train envy from the Harlem and Hudson lines' riders, whose biggest complaint about the M7s has been their cramped seating. The M7s are two inches slimmer than their predecessors, putting passengers in closer quarters whether they're seated or passing through the aisle. The M7 seats also are an inch closer to the seat in front. The reason the M8s can be wider than the M7s is because they're only being built for Metro-North's New Haven Line — the only one that must employ two different kinds of power on different parts of the line, third rail and catenary. As Metro-North President Peter Cannito noted, the M7s were built under a dual contract with Long Island Rail Road, which saved money but meant that all trains had to be designed to fit through the narrowest LIRR tunnels. "We're going to address all the issues in the M8s," Cannito said. "People want smokers and lounge chairs, and they want all this for about $2." While Cannito said Metro-North couldn't please everyone, and wouldn't be putting lounge chairs in the new train cars — forget about smoking cars — the railroad does plan to make the middle seat more attractive, probably by making it larger. The new cars likely will have close to 100 seats, fewer than the M2's 124 because some space will be taken by electrical components and a handicapped-accessible bathroom. As a result, the railroad will have to buy more cars, both to replace the existing, tired-out rolling stock and to expand the fleet. Proposals for the next generation of New Haven Line trains are due April 13. The three interested bidders are Bombardier, which designed the M7s; Kawasaki and Siemens. "We need these cars," Cannito said. "We actually needed them yesterday." To make sure the new trains please passengers, the railroad has had nine focus groups with riders, and several more are planned. In two-hour sessions at the offices of a market research firm in Stamford, Conn., the railroad has quizzed intrastate and interstate riders, daily commuters, employees and discretionary riders on their likes and dislikes about the current cars and what they'd like to see in the new ones. They've even reviewed color schemes. "What they don't like is as important as what they do like," said Cesar Vergara, a rail car designer for Jacobs Civil Inc. of New York City, a consultant to the railroad who listened in as one focus group last week ripped into the condition of the current New Haven Line's rail cars. "It would be great to have this much leg room," Vergara said, spreading his arms wide. "You have a certain requirement for a certain number of seats, and combine that with the requirement for (handicapped access). One bathroom takes nine seats. The rail car is 84 feet long and 10.5 feet wide. There is no magic wand. We want at least 100-and-some people to sit. The result is perceived by the passenger to be too tight a fit. In the case of the M8, we're going to do the best we can." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 08:56:44 2006, in response to Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 22 08:42:04 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Thanks. Can't wait to see the M8s in service! :-)
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by RonInBayside* on Wed Feb 22 09:07:00 2006, in response to Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 22 08:42:04 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Hey Peter, they're putting in wider seats for you! Except that you'll have to move to take advantage of them. I didn't know the LIRR tunnels were narrower than the ones Metro-North uses. Now I do.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Peter Rosa* on Wed Feb 22 10:09:13 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by RonInBayside on Wed Feb 22 09:07:00 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Hey Peter, they're putting in wider seats for you! Except that you'll have to move to take advantage of them. I didn't know the LIRR tunnels were narrower than the ones Metro-North uses. Now I do. The LIRR could very easily have dealt with the comparative narrowness of the M-7's, simply by using 2x2 seating like on the diesel coaches. My LIRR/NYCT blog
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by AEM-7AC #901* on Wed Feb 22 11:09:28 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 10:09:13 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The LIRR could very easily have dealt with the comparative narrowness of the M-7's, simply by using 2x2 seating like on the diesel coaches. And then the SCAs would complain that their aren't enough seats. I seem to be the only person who isn't complaining about M-7 seats. They're rather comfortable, and they're not as bad as everybody makes them out to be. Although, I must note that I'm 5'7, 130lbs, and obviously rather thin (and short).
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by WillD* on Wed Feb 22 11:11:46 2006, in response to Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 22 08:42:04 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Goddamn, if their 'wider' seats in the middle of the car end up going from 3+2 to 2+2 (which, unless they want a non-W/C accessible aisle it pretty much has to) then it'll be one step closer to the Silverliner V. Why can't somebody just get MN and SEPTA into the same room to realize that they're speccing the same friggin railcar? 600vdc third rail equipment doesn't cost THAT much, and they'd save a lot on the engineering and development if they split those costs between each other. If it weren't for the fact that the 'specification' on the Connecticut Rail Commuter Council's page was almost totally devoid of technical information I'm willing to bet it'd look extremely similar to SEPTA's Silverliner V specifications. SEPTA's proposed 104 new EMUs come in at a price of just about the same, so if the two agencies actually used their heads, worked together, and merely adapted the same basic railcar to fit their needs (third rail shoes for MN, traps for SEPTA), they probably could save themselves a considerable amount of money.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Wed Feb 22 11:23:55 2006, in response to Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 22 08:42:04 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d It's about time. I've ridden the New Haven line only twice in my life (the last time in 2003), and I was shocked to see how crappy the cars looked.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Peter Rosa* on Wed Feb 22 11:26:50 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Feb 22 11:09:28 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The LIRR could very easily have dealt with the comparative narrowness of the M-7's, simply by using 2x2 seating like on the diesel coaches. And then the SCAs would complain that their aren't enough seats. Fewer seats are much preferable to the current situation. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that an M-7 has 20 rows of 3-across seating and is completely full. If these seats are replaced with 2-across seating, 20 people have to stand - but 40 people will enjoy a much more comfortable ride. Under the current setup, there are no standees but sixty people are riding in misery. And that's not even considering the riders in the 2-across side. As far as I'm concerned taking the middle seat in an M-7 is basically an act of aggression, as you're ensuring that the people on either side of you, who most likely got there before you, will be miserable just so you don't have to stand. I suppose it's not always a nightmare if a small person takes the middle seat; the trouble with that scenario is that most of the really small people (c. <140 pounds) are women, and Ronkonkoma trains in particular are total Sausage Parties. I seem to be the only person who isn't complaining about M-7 seats. They're rather comfortable, and they're not as bad as everybody makes them out to be. Although, I must note that I'm 5'7, 130lbs, and obviously rather thin (and short). That makes a big difference. Most men, and for that matter some women, are much heavier than you. I'd hazard a guess that the average male commuter is not too much under 200 pounds. My LIRR/NYCT blog
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Wed Feb 22 11:30:12 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 11:26:50 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'd hazard a guess that the average male commuter is not too much under 200 pounds. In 2006? Or 1975?
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by WillD* on Wed Feb 22 11:33:51 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 08:56:44 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Thank goodness they won't be M7s :)
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Dan Lawrence* on Wed Feb 22 11:36:36 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 22 11:30:12 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I don't know, but after all the SCA do spend a lot of time playing cartball and drinking beer.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by RonInBayside* on Wed Feb 22 11:44:14 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 11:26:50 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d "As far as I'm concerned taking the middle seat in an M-7 is basically an act of aggression, as you're ensuring that the people on either side of you, who most likely got there before you, will be miserable just so you don't have to stand" No, it's their aggression to make you stand. The appropriate response to this aggression should be the Chinese wrist technique in Kenpo, but we live in a civilized society...8-)
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by David of Broadway* on Wed Feb 22 11:45:18 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 11:26:50 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d At some point, there's no more room for standees. That point probably comes sooner without the middle seat than with it. And, as I've said before, somebody who sits in the middle seat would obviously prefer to sit in tight confines than to stand. Since there's a seat available, he's entitled to make that choice. If you'd prefer to stand than to sit in tight confines, then stand.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by #3 West End Jeff* on Wed Feb 22 11:47:04 2006, in response to Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 22 08:42:04 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Many of the New Haven Line customers generally face a longer ride than their Hudson and Harlem Line counterparts so they'll appreciate the wider cars. #3 West End Jeff
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by RonInBayside* on Wed Feb 22 11:47:53 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by #3 West End Jeff on Wed Feb 22 11:47:04 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Good point.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Fytton* on Wed Feb 22 11:51:19 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Feb 22 11:45:18 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d "At some point, there's no more room for standees. That point probably comes sooner without the middle seat than with it." Trains with 3 & 2 seating usually have narrower aisles than 2 & 2, as well as narrower seats, so there is somewhat less room for standees in 3& 2s. The worst possible situation is where you have 3 & 2 seating and no-one uses the middle seat even though people are standing. That way, th unused middle seat is wasting floor space where someone could stand. In my (limited) observation this quite often happens on rush-hour Thameslink trains, whose seating is partially 3& 2.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 11:51:27 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 22 11:33:51 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yeah but they are going to pretty much have the same technologies, automated announcements, bright lighting, large bathrooms, and will weight at least 136,000 pounds. Isn't that great? :-P
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by RonInBayside* on Wed Feb 22 11:53:38 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 11:51:27 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d For the passengers, yes, it is.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 11:54:29 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 11:51:27 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I agree. :-D
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by David of Broadway* on Wed Feb 22 11:55:27 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Fytton on Wed Feb 22 11:51:19 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d But I'm guessing that total seating-plus-standing capacity is greater with 3 & 2 than with 2 & 2, despite the wider aisle. One advantage, however, is better passenger circulation when the train is pretty crowded but not crush loaded.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Peter Rosa* on Wed Feb 22 12:04:43 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Feb 22 11:45:18 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And, as I've said before, somebody who sits in the middle seat would obviously prefer to sit in tight confines than to stand. Since there's a seat available, he's entitled to make that choice. If you'd prefer to stand than to sit in tight confines, then stand. But what about the people in the aisle and window seats? They don't get to make a choice, yet they're going to end up suffering when the middle seat is taken. People are bigger today than they were a generation ago. It's just the way things are, yet it's a point wholly lost on the LIRR and on the M-7 seating designers. What might have happened, now that I think about it, is that the seating designers took an average-weight figure into account when deciding on seat sizes, without realizing that an average for all adults is inaccurate because: 1) it includes both men and women; 2) women are lighter than men; and 3) Ronkonkoma trains in particular have relatively few women, at least during rush hour. My LIRR/NYCT blog
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by WillD* on Wed Feb 22 12:05:22 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 11:51:27 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So long as it's 20,000lbs lighter than the car would have been if it'd been based off the porker that is the M7 they've at least done SOMETHING right. Unlike foamers such as yourself I'm not interested in superficial details such as how fappable the automated announcements will be. In this instance it's all about the money. 3 million dollars for a new EMU includes a hell of a lot of engineering costs, perhaps as high as 40 to 50 percent. If MN works with SEPTA, they'll defray the cost of the engineering between each other. This drives down the cost of the EMUs, perhaps by as much as 500,000 dollars per car. NJT needs new EMUs, they just don't realize it yet. If, in the absense of Warrington, they could be brought into the project that'd drive the cost down even further. With a price in the area of 2 to 2.25 million dollars per car we might have a viable future for EMUs in the US. At those prices EMUs could be offered as an alternative to the now somewhat popular DMUs, with turnkey electrification systems for the transit line in question.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by RiverLine3501* on Wed Feb 22 12:09:57 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 11:26:50 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Not me. I'm built like an average NFL player. Or one of those huge bodyguards that follows rappers. I need all the room I can get while riding a train.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by David of Broadway* on Wed Feb 22 12:18:20 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 12:04:43 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Of course they have a choice. They can continue to sit (now in relatively tight confines, though not quite as tight as for the person in the middle) or they can stand. Those are the two choices on a crowded train. It's the same on the subway, except that the seats are even narrower there.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Peter Rosa* on Wed Feb 22 12:33:09 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Feb 22 12:18:20 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Of course they have a choice. They can continue to sit (now in relatively tight confines, though not quite as tight as for the person in the middle) or they can stand. Except that in most cases the people in the window and aisle seats were there before the middle-seat hog grunted his way between them. And you're saying they should have to move? Ridiculous. My LIRR/NYCT blog
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 12:38:11 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 22 12:05:22 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They are not going to be lighter, they are going to be heavier than the M7s. The specs for the M8s have already been written. It is a trend, cars are getting heavier not lighter.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by David of Broadway* on Wed Feb 22 12:46:34 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 12:33:09 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d No, they're welcome to remain seated. Even if you're the first one on the train, you're not entitled to more than one seat.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Rail Blue* on Wed Feb 22 13:06:27 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Fytton on Wed Feb 22 11:51:19 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The worst possible situation is where you have 3 & 2 seating and no-one uses the middle seat even though people are standing. That way, th unused middle seat is wasting floor space where someone could stand. In my (limited) observation this quite often happens on rush-hour Thameslink trains, whose seating is partially 3& 2. I've witnessed an interesting comparison recently. The 455s on the South Western are gradually being refurbished from 3+2 to 2+2. It seems not to have made much difference to being able to get a seat (because the middle seats were unsittable in), whilst standees are no longer crushed into the vestibules. The 455s on the South Central are gradually being refurbished from the old cramped low-back 3+2 to high-back slightly less cramped 3+2 with virtually no aisle. The vestibules again seem to be less packed, mainly because a higher proportion of (though by no means all) the middle seats are actually used. However, the problem with this approach, is that with adjacent aisle seats taken, it is extremely difficult to get to empty seats further down the carriage. The last time I rode one of these units was about 7pm last Wednesday - I got on a southbound train at Mitcham Junction with a load of clobber I'd picked up at IKEA, and although I could see seats, I had no way of getting to them without decapitating someone with a flat-pack television table; so I had to stand in the vestibule and get in everyone who wanted to get off the train's way for the next three stations until a seat I could get to became free after Sutton. (Actually, I was cursing myself for being asleep when the train was crawling around the horrendous 15mph curve into Mitcham Junction. The train had been announced as a 6-car train, so I'd gambled on the 456 (2-car unrefurbed unit) being on the back - of course it was on the front. Had I got on the 456 portion of the train, the classic pattern of no middle seats taken would have happened, but I would actually have managed to have got to a seat and out of everyone's way.) Given that experience, the South Western (2+2) variant seems clearly more practical to me.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by RonInBayside* on Wed Feb 22 13:09:46 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 12:33:09 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d My heart bleeds for them...
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Peter Rosa* on Wed Feb 22 13:14:40 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by David of Broadway on Wed Feb 22 12:46:34 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Here's the real problem: width of 3 M-7 seats < width of 3 average adult males. Something's got to give. My LIRR/NYCT blog
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by r7 torresdale express* on Wed Feb 22 13:18:25 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 12:38:11 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You act as though that's a good thing...
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 13:24:19 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by r7 torresdale express on Wed Feb 22 13:18:25 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Because it is.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by Rail Blue* on Wed Feb 22 13:30:31 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 11:26:50 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I'd hazard a guess that the average male commuter is not too much under 200 pounds. I think you're being conservative there. Le Corbusier revised the height of the standard man behind the Modulor from 1.75m to 1.83m so that the Modulor system worked for human-scale architectural proportions. So let's take that standard 1.83m man and make him a commuter - he obviously doesn't exercise enough (he spends too much time on trains) and likes a drink in the evening (he spends too much time on M7s), so he'll probably be on the borderline of what the quacks call overweight and obese - in arbitrary figures, let's give him a BMI of 30.0. If I can do the math right (big if), that works out at 220lbs. So designing around a 220lb man seems really to be utterly reasonable.
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Re: Attention Peter Rosa
Posted by David of Broadway* on Wed Feb 22 13:44:14 2006, in response to Re: Attention Peter Rosa, posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 22 13:14:40 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yes. Comfort.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by r7 torresdale express* on Wed Feb 22 13:58:54 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 13:24:19 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Heavier cars mean slower acceleration and/or higher energy consumption. Which one of those things is good? Has the FRA brainwashed you?
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 14:00:42 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by r7 torresdale express on Wed Feb 22 13:58:54 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d No, I just like the M7s, think they are better than the older equipment.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by WillD* on Wed Feb 22 15:50:11 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 12:38:11 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They are not going to be lighter, they are going to be heavier than the M7s. The specs for the M8s have already been written. It is a trend, cars are getting heavier not lighter. LOL! Nothing like comparing apples and oranges. The M8s will have to lug around a 30,000lb high voltage AC transformer, while the M7s just use a straight DC link off the third rail. The M7 weighs 128,000lbs, so as I have repeatedly told you an M8 based directly on the M7 would likely run around 158,000lbs. Again, that's 128,000lb for the carbody and propulsion out of an M7 and 30,000lbs for the transformer, leading to a total weight of 158,000lbs, you following? Now, if there's a 136,000lb upper weight limit on the M8 that means it's 22,000lbs lighter than what so many railfans (and MN/ConnDOT themselves) initially expected the vehicle to be constructed as. I was not comparing the M8 to the M7, but rather the M8 to the M7 with 30,000lbs of weight added for a transformer. If you remove the transformer from the M8 you have a 106,000lb EMU, which is 20,000lbs lighter than the M7, and only a few tons heavier than the old Metropolitans, and probably what the M7s should have weighed to begin with.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Wed Feb 22 15:58:56 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 22 15:50:11 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d you following? lol, no he's not.
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Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by WillD* on Wed Feb 22 16:01:09 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 14:00:42 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Just out of curiousity, why? Because they're new? The cars are nearly 20,000lbs heavier than their contemporaries. There IS a trend toward heavier cars, from the 92,000lb M1s, the 95,000lb M3s(?) 89,000 (including 30,000lb AC transformer) pound Pioneer IIIs, the 125,000lb Arrow IIIs (again, 30,000lb AC transformer), up to the Silverliner Vs and M8s which may well be around 130,000 to 140,000lbs. However, the M7s buck this trend radically, with carbody weights some 15 to 20,000lbs heavier than their contemporaries. If NJT can get a single deck Comet V for 100,000lbs, and SEPTA can actually recieve bids on an EMU which would have potentially had a carbody weight of just 95,000lbs (125,000lb initial Silverliner V spec minus the 30,000lb AC transformer), then it is nothing other than laziness on the part of Bombardier and the MTA that the M7s weigh as much as they do.
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(219585)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by WillD* on Wed Feb 22 16:02:12 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 22 15:58:56 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yeah, I know, I'm awaiting the "Your post makes no sense" response for the umpteenth million time. I guess adding 30 to 128 is too hard.
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(219595)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 16:21:33 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 22 16:01:09 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Because the M7s are alot more reliable than any of the Legacy equipment. They are much sturdier than any of the legacy equipment, more powerful, and they can serve the disabled. The weight of the M7s is NOT a design flaw, all railcars and even subway cars are getting heavier.
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(219598)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 16:22:23 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by WillD on Wed Feb 22 15:50:11 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You don't know what you are talking about.
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(219603)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Wed Feb 22 16:26:15 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 16:22:23 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Haha, yes he does. Everything he wrote makes perfect sense. You always say "You don't know what you are talking about" when you are cornered and you know he's right but you're just trying to save face.
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(219606)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 16:29:00 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 22 16:26:15 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d No he is just an ignorant railbuff like yourself, not a railcar designer. What he said was mostly BS.
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(219609)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Wed Feb 22 16:32:31 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 16:29:00 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How do you know that neither he nor I are railcar designers? And please copy and paste for us which parts of his post were "BS," since all I saw were facts and good math.
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(219610)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by WayneJay* on Wed Feb 22 16:33:22 2006, in response to Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Feb 22 08:42:04 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d My question is why did they wait so long to replace the M2. We know that they're the backbone of the NH fleet. Also - if they had purchased more M4 and M6 cars they wouldn't be in such a tough position.
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(219611)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by SUBWAYMAN* on Wed Feb 22 16:35:22 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 22 16:32:31 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And please copy and paste for us which parts of his post were "BS," since all I saw were facts and good math. They may have been facts but he is not an expert. He has little credibility when it comes to Railcar design.
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(219613)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by mr_brian* on Wed Feb 22 16:35:45 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 16:21:33 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d But Will is saying other cars about the same age as the M7 (or like at most a few years older) are much lighter. If the M7s weren't as heavy as they are, would they receive a little less of the flak they get from railfans, or would it be the same?
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(219616)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by Terrapin Station* on Wed Feb 22 16:37:34 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 16:35:22 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d They may have been facts but he is not an expert. Since when do you have to be an expert for facts not to be BS? He has little credibility when it comes to Railcar design. He's not designing railcars. He's quoting facts. And everything he said is true, makes sense, and is certainly not BS.
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(219617)	view threaded
Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars
Posted by mr_brian* on Wed Feb 22 16:38:09 2006, in response to Re: Metro-North New Haven Line on track for new cars, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Feb 22 16:35:22 2006.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d But Will (if that is who you are referring to) is one of the most knowledgable people I know when it comes to trains and their overall mechanical aspects.
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