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| (1595627) | |
2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by rashidas on Tue Jan 18 00:05:32 2022 Just curious - why was the 2nd Avenue subway extension planned for 125th Street and Lexington Avenue rather going north to the Bronx? By going directly north the Q could follow the route of the defunct 3rd Avenue el to Fordham University and Gun Hill Road. Modern concrete elevated tracks are less noisy and objectionable compared to the old steel elevated structures. |
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| (1595630) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 18 01:09:21 2022, in response to 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by rashidas on Tue Jan 18 00:05:32 2022. IMO the 125th and is the confession that no link to the Bronx will happen. |
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| (1595636) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 18 03:04:02 2022, in response to 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by rashidas on Tue Jan 18 00:05:32 2022. The SAS was originally intended to go to the Bx and connect to some IRT lines that were built to dual contract (BMT) clearances and the the Dyre Ave Line near the original NYW&B Harlem River terminal. With most of the original NYW&B infrastructure S/O E180 St now demolished and building having been constructed in the former ROW it is nearly impossible to make a convenient connection from the SAS to any of the existing Bronx lines except for possibly the Concourse line from the 125 St terminal. |
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| (1595637) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Allan on Tue Jan 18 04:53:04 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 18 03:04:02 2022. An early plan had the 2nd Av line taking over the Pelham line (exactly how and where was never mentioned). |
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| (1595638) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Q4 on Tue Jan 18 06:40:21 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 18 01:09:21 2022. Although there are supposed to be provisions (tail tracks proceeding further north as the line begins its turns to 125th St) I agree it will not happen. |
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| (1595651) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 18 11:21:43 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Allan on Tue Jan 18 04:53:04 2022. This is not correct. Different plans called for different connection points. |
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| (1595670) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Andy on Tue Jan 18 16:21:03 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Allan on Tue Jan 18 04:53:04 2022. Original; 1968 plan had one leg of the 2nd Ave. subway connecting with the #6 at Whitlock Avenue, with an extension from Pelham Bay Park to Co-Op City. South of Whitlock would remain IRT $6 Lexington Line. |
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| (1595679) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 18 18:45:49 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 18 11:21:43 2022. The earliest plans did call for a connection to the Pelham Line. Sometime in the 1970s, it was decided to leave the Pelham Line with the IRT and instead, connect it to the Wh Pl Rd Line at E 180 St due to its close proximity to the Dyre Ave Line at that location. Of course, in the end nothing happened and probably never will. |
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| (1595695) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jan 18 23:06:23 2022, in response to 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by rashidas on Tue Jan 18 00:05:32 2022. Modern concrete elevated tracks are less noisy and objectionable compared to the old steel elevated structuresYour opinion won't sway NIMBYs or any politicians. |
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| (1595711) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jan 19 08:08:04 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 18 18:45:49 2022. The 1970s plan called for reactivating the NYWB viaduct from E. 174th to E. 180th. As we know, the viaduct was demolished in 2003 and then the ROW built on.Amazing that such a short-sighted action was taken in the fair lrecent past. |
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| (1595714) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 19 08:19:06 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jan 19 08:08:04 2022. Who owned the viaduct ? |
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| (1595716) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Jan 19 08:42:07 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 19 08:19:06 2022. city of new york. |
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| (1595717) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jan 19 09:08:12 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed Jan 19 08:42:07 2022. Yet, they have not allowed similar destruction of the RBB. |
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| (1595720) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 19 10:03:50 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 18 18:45:49 2022. What I was disagreeing with was that the planned connection point was unknown. Doesn’t anyone read? |
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| (1595721) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Brooklynbus on Wed Jan 19 10:09:55 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jan 19 08:08:04 2022. They never should have allowed the ROW to be built on. Stupidity and shortsightedness. If the ROW went nowhere like the Culver line near 37 St, is another story. |
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| (1595728) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Wed Jan 19 13:43:24 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 19 10:03:50 2022. It might have been clearer had you written something like "this is {half | partly | partially} correct." See also the first paragraph here. |
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| (1595729) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 19 14:08:05 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Wed Jan 19 13:43:24 2022. True. But I did say that different plans called for different connection points, which at the very least means that the statement I was responding to was incorrect. |
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| (1595733) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 19 15:36:17 2022, in response to 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by rashidas on Tue Jan 18 00:05:32 2022. Does anyone know when the el bridge between 129th St and 133rd St was demolished. Starting and finishing dates, if possible. Also, are there any photos of it coming down? |
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| (1595750) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 20 08:14:56 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 18 11:21:43 2022. The proposal i know was actually made was to connect the SAS to the Pelham line at Whitlock Ave, and ending IRT service at Hunts Point. Without a yard for IRT trains I don't see this as feasible. |
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| (1595751) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 20 08:17:26 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Andy on Tue Jan 18 16:21:03 2022. Not a single plan to connect it to the 3rd Ave el. I know it would have required a lot of work, but it was literally right there |
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| (1595772) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jan 20 10:21:07 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 19 15:36:17 2022. This may be the answer, maybe?The El shuttle was in service from 1889 to 1924 from the 129th St Terminal. A gate car is shown on the connecting track approaching the 132nd St terminal. The track remained in non-revenue use until 1955, when the 3rd Ave El bridge and structure in Manhattan was demolished. |
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| (1595778) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jan 20 11:48:45 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Avid Reader on Thu Jan 20 10:21:07 2022. I asked when the 2nd Ave Bridge was taken down, after Manhattan service ended, thank you. Does anyone know? |
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| (1595779) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 20 11:52:03 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 20 08:14:56 2022. It got worse later on.The 1968 plan called for that, but in the 1990s they proposed cutting back the IRT even further to 3rd and then connecting the SAS at Brook. Another proposed called for building the 125th Street station parallel to the Lex, reusing the IRT tunnel and thus taking over 3rd Avenue too. The Lex local would have been a shuttle to 125. This study was called “MESA” and it seems to me the least practical SAS proposal ever. |
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| (1595780) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 20 11:53:20 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 20 08:17:26 2022. The TAL would have been replaced by a line along the NYC Harlem line to Woodlawn/233rd. This would have either connected to the SAS or the Lex. |
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| (1595904) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 22 01:16:25 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 20 11:52:03 2022. Actually, when I was in the schedule office in the 1970s and 1980s, plans were changed to leave the Pelham Line with the IRT and instead reclaim the White Pl Rd Line N/O E 180 due to its close proximity to the original NYW&B E 180 St station which would be the one used by the SAS. |
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| (1595905) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 22 01:18:38 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 20 08:17:26 2022. The Bx portion of the 3rd Ave el was not built to dual contract specs so it could not have accommodated IND sized cars unlike the Pelham, Dyre and Wh Pl Rd lines which were dual contract. |
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| (1595906) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 22 01:18:41 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 22 01:16:25 2022. The main plan was always to use the NYWB to Dyre. I heard about the WPR plan also. |
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| (1595907) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 22 01:20:32 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 22 01:18:38 2022. Not to mention that the part south of Fordham Road was pre-subway el and could hardy support the R-12s it used. |
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| (1595908) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jan 22 01:24:25 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jan 20 11:48:45 2022. The 2nd and 3rd Av els used the same bridge. The bridge came down after 3rd Ave el service ended in 1955. |
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| (1595993) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by bulk88 on Sun Jan 23 15:16:28 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 20 08:14:56 2022. Div A trains from HPA, the last stop, would travel over Div B (north SAS half of Pelham line) to Westchester Yard like before. |
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| (1596011) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 24 00:14:30 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by bulk88 on Sun Jan 23 15:16:28 2022. I was going to mention that. when I worked in the command center, the part of the model board that showed the Bronx IND also showed the Dyre and Pelham Lines with the center track of the Pelham Line as coming from another place presumably the IRT. |
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| (1596014) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Jan 24 01:13:01 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 24 00:14:30 2022. Ah, thanks, randyo |
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| (1596021) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 24 08:20:41 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by randyo on Sat Jan 22 01:16:25 2022. Running the SAS into the E.180th NYWB station makes sense. I'd say the logical thing to do would have been to just end it there, leaving the IRT as is. Perhaps second-best would be reclaim the Dyre Line, which would have basically restored the entire Bronx portion of the NYWB.With the NYWB viaduct gone, my next suggestion would be recycle the half-thought through plan from the 1968 Plan for Action- convert the local/out tracks of the Harlem Line to subway use. The connection to Manhattan could be made with a new tunnel or lift bridge. But realistically, I wouldn't expect ANY of this to happen. If we get Phase 2 to 125th in our lifetimes, we should consider ourselves lucky. |
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| (1596022) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 24 08:22:26 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jan 20 08:17:26 2022. I've thought that as well. Also, I thought maybe the reason the Bronx portion was retained in 1955 was to permit such a connection. But like you said, there's no mention of doing that anywhere. |
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| (1596023) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 24 08:24:36 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 20 11:53:20 2022. I believe the Harlem Line plan was to save a remnant of the TAL from Fordham and north, and connect there. That northern segment was even painted in 1970, with the idea that it'd be repurposed. |
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| (1596028) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Jan 24 10:44:36 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 24 08:24:36 2022. I believe the Harlem Line plan was to save a remnant of the TAL from Fordham and north, and connect there. That northern segment was even painted in 1970, with the idea that it'd be repurposed. The Harlem Line plan was probably put forth by someone with no knowledge of the line. I worked at Woodlawn Tower in the late 70's and I can tell you that there was no room for subway trains making frequent stops. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1596047) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 24 14:40:59 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 22 01:20:32 2022. I have always found it interesting that all of the SAS proposals, from the 1920- the 1950's retained the existing 3rd Ave el. Also, no provisions for any track connections (like 53rd/2nd, etc) to the IND 6th & 8th Ave subway lines. Or, did I miss something? |
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| (1596048) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 24 14:42:39 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 24 14:40:59 2022. The original IND plan called for a 6th-2nd connection at 61st Street. |
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| (1596049) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 24 14:45:35 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 24 14:42:39 2022. The 1929 or post WWII plans did? That's what i was talking about- the original plans. I have no interest in post-MTA proposals. |
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| (1596053) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 24 15:29:41 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 24 14:45:35 2022. Pre-war. The provisions for the 61st street connection where later used for the 57th Street station and 63rd Street tunnel. |
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| (1596063) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jan 24 19:47:57 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jan 19 08:08:04 2022. But how many years will it be before they even consider having the SAS go into the Bronx, let alone to E 180 St? At the rate they're going, it'll be like a hundred years. |
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| (1596114) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Asgard on Tue Jan 25 12:45:29 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 24 08:20:41 2022. Two tracks would not be enough for the Metro-North New Haven and Harlem-above-Wakefield service.And unless all connections to the local tracks were severed, it mean a connection between the subway and the rail network, and hence ICC/FRA jurisdiction. |
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| (1596120) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 25 15:01:40 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 22 01:18:41 2022. They should have run the SAS up 3rd Ave in the Bronx, across E 180th St to connect to the 180th St-Dyre junction. |
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| (1596121) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 25 15:04:20 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by 3-9 on Mon Jan 24 19:47:57 2022. Set your radio dial to Wallyland Home Companion, close you eyes, and dream- like I do! |
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| (1596122) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 25 15:08:44 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 24 15:29:41 2022. Pre-WWII? Where, exactly were these provisions? I have never seen them here or anywhere else. Perhaps, on paper? |
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| (1596135) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 16:48:49 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 25 15:08:44 2022. What do you think they used to connect the 6th Avenue line to 57th street in 1968? |
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| (1596137) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 16:54:55 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 25 16:48:49 2022. Here |
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| (1596149) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 26 02:43:56 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Asgard on Tue Jan 25 12:45:29 2022. However, the M/N connection into Penn would lighten the traffic on the Harlem. |
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| (1596150) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 26 02:46:32 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 25 15:01:40 2022. Till the infrastructure S/O was demolished, the use of the NYW&B from Harlem river was the best option. |
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| (1596155) | |
Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Jan 26 07:07:59 2022, in response to Re: 2nd Avenue el to the Bronx, posted by Asgard on Tue Jan 25 12:45:29 2022. Yes, I guess the FRA thing (in those days, the ICC) was among the reasons why this never happened. But in my fantasy world, appropriate waivers are granted, even though the tracks aren't totally severed. Maybe a very controlled switch or two is left in place.It's all fantasy anyway. My honest, realistic assessment tells me that there's at least a chance of getting Phase 2 done in about 15 years of construction. No good reason for it to take that long, but this is NY, and the 125th Station itself is likely to be a complex undertaking. Phases 3 ad 4? Maybe in another 50 years. Bronx connection? Don't even talk about it realistic terms. |
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