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| (1591379) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Wed Dec 1 14:07:13 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 12:31:35 2021. I did! |
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| (1591409) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 19:22:51 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by Italianstallion on Wed Dec 1 14:07:13 2021. I noticed. Thanks! |
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| (1591410) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 1 19:47:51 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 12:31:35 2021. Yes, I did, before I responded to Chris. |
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| (1591431) | |
Similarity to the 63rd St. Stub in Long Island City |
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Posted by rashidas on Wed Dec 1 21:45:57 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 1 05:27:24 2021. There is a certain parallel between the present terminus of the 2nd avenue line at 96th Street and the former stub terminus of the 63 street tunnel in Long Island City. Eventually the 21 Street terminus was extended to the IND Queens line on Northern Boulevard:https://metro.fandom.com/wiki/Lexington_Avenue_%E2%80%93_63rd_Street_(New_York_City_Subway)?utm_source=pocket_mylist https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/Environment/air_quality/cmaq/research/advancing_mobility/03cmaq08.cfm?utm_source=pocket_mylist The final expense to connect the lines was over $600 million dollars. |
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| (1591437) | |
Re: Similarity to the 63rd St. Stub in Long Island City |
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Posted by ntrainride on Wed Dec 1 23:32:20 2021, in response to Similarity to the 63rd St. Stub in Long Island City, posted by rashidas on Wed Dec 1 21:45:57 2021. on second avenue...they may as well have built a horse car street railroad. gg crosstown train was a much more advanced concept. |
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| (1591439) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Wed Dec 1 23:51:34 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by rashidas on Tue Nov 30 20:15:49 2021. The priority at the moment is to reduce strain on the overcrowded Lexington Ave line, not to give West siders more options. |
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| (1591462) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Dec 2 09:35:14 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Nov 26 16:10:49 2021. I visited the construction zone often. It was still pretty disrupted!!! |
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| (1591464) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 2 10:16:30 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by MainR3664 on Thu Dec 2 09:35:14 2021. But it was supposedly a smaller zone than would have otherwise been necessary. |
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| (1591477) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Thu Dec 2 12:24:56 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 19:22:51 2021. No problem. |
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| (1591479) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Thu Dec 2 12:25:27 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 1 19:22:51 2021. No problem. |
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| (1591605) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Dec 3 10:04:12 2021, in response to The case for a 125 St extension, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 27 15:58:49 2021. I have liked this myself, EXCEPT I would build this at least with a connection to the 8th Avenue line at 125 that would allow for greater operational flexibility, including being able to have the (B) and (D) when needed operate via 2nd Avenue and then via 63rd on the (F) before rejoining its normal 6th Avenue line at 47th-50th as well as the (A) and (C) operating the same way before rejoining the 8th Avenue line south of West 4th.Another thing this would do is allow the (Q) to continue past 125th/St. Nicholas and run via either 8th Avenue or Concourse north of 145th. |
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| (1591606) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Dec 3 10:06:20 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 28 21:47:45 2021. That is what I would do for a Bronx extension. Then, you can have as I would do it (with a full 125th Street Crosstown that connects to the 8th Avenue and Concourse lines), lines that run either with the (A) and (C) on 8th Avenue or the (B) and (D) to the Concourse Line AND a line that replaces the 3rd Avenue EL. |
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| (1591644) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Dec 3 16:39:16 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Nov 29 14:22:20 2021. An el over the tracks? That is certainly different than the 1968 plan, which seemed to call for transferring the outer or "local" tracks to the subway, and is obviously not doable today. Just how such an el would be supported, I'm not sure. MN and its riders might not like putting the line under the shadow of an el. And the street decking at Fordham Plaza would have to be heavily reinforced if an el was to be constructed over it. |
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| (1591919) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Dec 6 23:46:06 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by rashidas on Tue Nov 30 20:15:49 2021. Politically, I can see it being fairly difficult, because 125th St is the major commecial thoroughfare for Harlem. It would be a huge disruption for the businesses and bus lines that go through it. In terms of construction, they have to underpin 3 subway lines to connect to the 8th Ave station. I don't know what the ground is made of though - sand, schist, or whatever. I think that would make it more difficult, though they could make the stations simpler (nah). |
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| (1591922) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 00:36:54 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Snarf368 on Wed Dec 1 23:51:34 2021. Once again, most of the money pie already stolen, we debate over the leftover crumbs. Since they failed to build a turnback pocket at 72nd, running a branch west under 125th, which should go as far as connecting to the IRT at B'way, is okay by meas an add on, but not inplace of running into the Bronx. As to releiving the Lex, running to 180 to rtecapture the NYW&B ROW woulde do that both as routing options and a need for fewer trains under Lexington. Its only money, and way more useful than F35s, drones of aircraft carriers. |
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| (1591927) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 03:16:00 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 00:36:54 2021. Oh boy. Only a commie would think in terms of rail transit versus defense technology and completely exclude the private sector. |
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| (1591928) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 03:18:21 2021, in response to The case for a 125 St extension, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 27 15:58:49 2021. What does this pipe dream have to do with the ginormous cost overruns? |
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| (1591934) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 06:42:29 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 03:16:00 2021. Private sector want no part in running subways, just handed big government contracts to build them. |
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| (1591950) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Dec 7 10:06:08 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 06:42:29 2021. It depends on whether there is any land to develop around the subway stations. |
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| (1591951) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 10:08:27 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by JAzumah on Tue Dec 7 10:06:08 2021. Which as nothing to do with private sector owning and running the subways. |
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| (1591953) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Tue Dec 7 10:43:18 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 03:16:00 2021. What’s a commie? |
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| (1591954) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 10:50:46 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Italianstallion on Tue Dec 7 10:43:18 2021. A cussword. |
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| (1591957) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 11:11:59 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 10:08:27 2021. If the private sector could turn a profit by owning & running the subways nowadays, I'm sure they would jump at the chance. |
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| (1591959) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 11:41:12 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 11:11:59 2021. They could if the public sector would not hit them with draconian regulations. It was because of same that the public sector took over the formerly private operations, merely because the public sector lusted for control. |
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| (1591961) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 11:46:26 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 11:41:12 2021. So just what regulations what you abolish and what do they now cost ? |
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| (1591963) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 12:20:05 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 11:41:12 2021. Can you cite some of those "draconian" regulations that would apply to private owner/operators & not public owner/operators? |
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| (1591977) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by JAzumah on Tue Dec 7 14:29:06 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 10:08:27 2021. It is actually how it is done everywhere that subways are operated for-profit. If construction wasn't so expensive in NYC, an automatic subway could actually work on a standalone basis. |
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| (1591987) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 7 15:16:45 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 03:16:00 2021. Geez.There's no such thing as a "commie". The term was thought up by White Men to foster sentiment,and divid the people against themselves. To increase the Capitalist funded idealist,turning the world into consumers, instead of Producer's. Perfect growing fields for The armorment creators,creating lies to feed the masses. TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS to support that bullshit cracks talk...along with millions of lives that those Devils sacrificed so they can sit pretty. Commies? Fuck you,Devil. Your lies have cost the lives of MILLIONS OF AMERICANS all in the name of getting More Green Paper..more stolen land,More stolen Gold..More stolen diamonds. All of these things come from the Earth..All are.either rocks stones or commodity,like the people you have exploited. Please shut up. |
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| (1591992) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 7 15:21:40 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Italianstallion on Tue Dec 7 10:43:18 2021. That guy is throwback.He's reliving a time flux,due to the increasing racial unrest caused by the Media. |
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| (1592021) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 19:08:06 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by 3-9 on Mon Dec 6 23:46:06 2021. Theres a minor fault line running along 125th St. I don't know if that would be a factor in construction. |
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| (1592022) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 19:34:40 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 19:08:06 2021. Doesn't 14th Street have one too ? |
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| (1592024) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 20:03:56 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 19:34:40 2021. Don't know |
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| (1592025) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 20:04:29 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 12:20:05 2021. Forcing private companies to keep fares artificially low, just for one. Thought that would be the first to jump to a railfan's mind. |
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| (1592026) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 20:20:21 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 20:04:29 2021. if subway fares were ten bucks the system would be self-supporting. |
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| (1592029) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 20:29:03 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 20:20:21 2021. but unused |
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| (1592030) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 20:32:51 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 20:04:29 2021. So you think if the fares were allowed to be raised at the whim of the private operators, they would still be in control? They would have the $$$ to be able to build more lines, modernize equipment, cope with employee raises to match post war inflation & raze or modernize the ancient Els out of the farebox? I think not. |
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| (1592034) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 22:33:51 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 20:20:21 2021. realistically, to drive to manhattan, park and drive back, during rush hours from, say, bensonhurst will cost you more than ten bucks. more like twenty or even thirty bucks easy.i get it; the city is built around inexpensive mass transit. just saying, the subway is an outstanding bargain. will it forever be so? |
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| (1592037) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 23:08:27 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 7 20:32:51 2021. AFAIK, there is exactly ONE rapid transit system making a profit--not genuinely from the farebox but from the TOD real estate surrounding the stations--MTR in Hong Kong. That cross subsidy BTW was the idea behind the PANYNJ buying the bankrupt H&M which gave us the whole Twin Towers and surrounding development. I remember going to Lafayette down there for electrical parts when Hudson Terminal (even earlier TOD) was still occupied. |
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| (1592038) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 23:10:39 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 22:33:51 2021. That is a political question. In NYC wants people to either earn or spend money in Manhattan, it must remain affordably accessible. |
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| (1592040) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 23:26:00 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 20:20:21 2021. Nope; that's according to the communist model. |
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| (1592043) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 8 06:44:05 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 7 20:04:29 2021. So you want the subway fare to be $20, it would make a profit and build more subways.Aboliosh the communist highway system, and you'd have a point. |
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| (1592046) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 8 07:49:38 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 23:08:27 2021. While Robert Moses was running amoc building FREEways to siphon people off rails.Somebody here needs a few coures in Micro-economics to see why his theories are flawed. |
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| (1592058) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Wed Dec 8 12:14:25 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Edwards! on Tue Dec 7 15:21:40 2021. Haha! |
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| (1592105) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'' |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Dec 9 02:25:17 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a ''bargain'', posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 19:34:40 2021. How far does that fault line extend from Manhattan Valley? Either way, it didn't seem to make much of a difference to the 8th Ave and Broadway IRT lines. |
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| (1592112) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by FarRock on Thu Dec 9 06:22:55 2021, in response to The case for a 125 St extension, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Nov 27 15:58:49 2021. I've recently put some thought into an extension down 125 St that would benefit the IND and make it just as flexible as the IRT when it comes to east side/west side service. We can use the middle tracks, A5 & A6 of 135 Street IND and turn them into in to a ramp that curves under East and could connect to 125 St just east of Lenox then onto the planned terminal at Lexington Avenue. 4 Tracks for 125 St Lenox as a local station. Or we could Just bypass Lenox all together. When CPW is a mess, send trains up and down 6 Av & 2 Av and they get back on route uptown at 145 St and southbound at one of the many connections we have. Ex: W4, Jay, & Pacific depending on the route.As for 24 hour service maybe "North" Lenox the tracks in the middle connects uptown and the local tracks against the wall keep going to 125 St St. Nicholas then terminate past Broadway. The question is would the 125 St Fault be a problem for digging in that area. |
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| (1592114) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Dec 9 07:46:43 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 8 07:49:38 2021. Yeah. His "coulda, woulda, shoulda" of the past is academic. There is few to no rail transit companies which can run today without subsidies. |
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| (1592117) | |
Re: The case for a 125 St extension |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 9 08:28:05 2021, in response to Re: The case for a 125 St extension, posted by FarRock on Thu Dec 9 06:22:55 2021. Close to what I would do (and previously noted in this thread):I would do it where there are stops at Lenox for the 2/3 and St. Nicholas for the A/B/C/D with the connection you suggested. There would be a ton of operational flexibility that way and allow for allow for if needed the SAS to run on the Concourse line or to 168/207 (including having an SAS special to/from Yankee Stadium for events there). |
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| (1592159) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 10 06:56:52 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by 3-9 on Thu Dec 9 07:46:43 2021. Just to operate, without payments to debt service. Even if they accomplished that, they could never contribute to capital. |
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| (1592170) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Dec 10 09:47:05 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 8 07:49:38 2021. I don't believe the reason for his Parkway and expressway building was to siphon people from rail.Yes his theory was flawed that building more highways in congested cities instead of mass transit would cure congestion. |
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| (1592231) | |
Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”? |
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Posted by JAzumah on Sat Dec 11 00:16:46 2021, in response to Re: $6.9 Billion Second Avenue Subway Phase II a “bargain”?, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 10 06:56:52 2021. The private sector can make a profit above the rails without a problem. It is the debt service that bankrupts them (see Eurotunnel et al). This is why the real estate component is important as well as the speed and capacity of the service.Brightline has a shot because they are building into a growing market that is somewhat premium. There are a few Japanese metro and mini-metro lines that can do it. It is actually easier to make money if you go faster as long as the right of way costs aren't outrageous. For example, if the Azumah Automatic Metro (ZAM) split the cost of Phase 3 and 4 of the Second Avenue Subway with the MTA by enlarging the tunnels to be two tracks, that would actually be profitable despite the insane cost of those phases. It would only cost 15-20% more to be four tracks instead of two. MTR has the right template. Granted, the land is not going to be free, but if you can capture some of the additional value that you bring to it, private railroading can be profitable. |
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