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Re: IND Second system

Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 10:57:13 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 10:35:53 2021.

Off peak passengers are far more apt to jump in their cars than commuters.

Proff?





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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 11:07:43 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 10:57:13 2021.

How can anyone come up with "proff" ? Common sense says they would.

They are not usual train riders, but automobile-centric suburbanites.
Suffolk County is not Queens.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Dec 4 11:14:05 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 08:18:25 2021.

I should add: pre-pandemic inbound PM rush hour trains were more crowded than outbound AM rush hour trains, and contained an even smaller proportion of people who might now be working from home.

WFH gets a massive amount of media attention, but in terms of actual numbers it's not as common as all this attention might lead one to believe. According to the federal Department of Labor, as of two months ago only 13% of the employed people in the US were WFH, and that included people on hybrid arrangements under which they split their workweeks between home and office. Even at its peak, in April and May 2020, no more than one-third of employed people were WFH.*

Of course NYC commuters are a different story. A business survey from October said that fewer than 10% of Manhattan office workers were in the office five days a week and just over half were full-time WFH (the remainder were hybrid). Given that transit, especially commuter rail, is aimed largely at Manhattan office workers, it's going to have to figure out ways to adapt to what's looking more and more like a permanent change. Much better off peak and reverse commuting service is essential.


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(1591698)

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 11:19:16 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Dec 4 11:14:05 2021.

It is not just Covid, but NYC city and subway crime in general.

Bank of America (which inncludes Merrill Lynch) just advised their employees going to work in midtown to not dress up as that could make them targets.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Dec 4 11:21:47 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 11:07:43 2021.

"Common sense says they would."

"Common sense" tells me that it would make more sense to take the train. Less crowds, no traffic & much cheaper in the long run. The longest drive (from roomy parking lots these days and in many cases free) would be from the parking lot to your home.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 11:25:24 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Dec 4 11:21:47 2021.

Tell them that, and most of them would laugh at you.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Dec 4 11:26:05 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Dec 4 11:14:05 2021.

Much better off peak and reverse commuting service is essential.

That really shouldn't be an enormous thing to adapt to, if necessary. Just pretend it's 12 noon on a weekday all day long, with a few extra runs thrown in spots when/where that service level isn't enough. The reverse commuting should take care of itself once the concept of a drastic unidirectional rush hour is given up on.

To the extent that less service is run because there is no rush hour, ideally that can be made up for by sprinkling better headways across the span of the day.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 11:29:19 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Dec 4 11:26:05 2021.

LIRR tried that on March 8th and it was a disaster. They were forced to go back to 85% of weekday service after 3 weeks. It also meant slow, local trains all day, which people do not want.





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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 4 11:41:42 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 19:07:42 2021.

The same thing happens when it snows in Colorado for the first time every year - people forget how to drive. 4-wheel-drive isn't 4-wheel-stop.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Dec 4 11:45:47 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Dec 4 11:21:47 2021.

It's rougher if you're already in your car that you paid for and is depreciating in value (by time, if not by mileage) and that you are paying insurance on. To put it in a lot and walk away from it for most of the day to get on a train (especially a train requiring you to put a mask on) is counter-intuitive, even if it is technically more cost-effective.

I'm not automobile-centric; I'm just painting a picture.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 12:18:59 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Dec 4 11:45:47 2021.

Forget the mask issue, 2 or 3 adults travelling together who infrequently go to the city, know little of the LIRR, will drive, not buy 6 train tickets.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Dec 4 12:59:53 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 11:25:24 2021.

Well, their idiots!

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 13:07:37 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 11:07:43 2021.

Common sense says they would.

In a situation like this, there are arguments both ways.

Regular commuters may be much more comfortable with driving to work than infrequent visitors to the city.

We can't know for sure without well-measured statistics.



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Re: IND Second system

Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 13:10:09 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Sat Dec 4 11:14:05 2021.

Much better off peak and reverse commuting service is essential.

And decent service for those require a 2-track line. Or at least many stations being 2-track to allow meets. And the stations are the expensive part of double tracking.






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Re: IND Second system

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Dec 4 13:17:46 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 12:18:59 2021.

And a group using a single car takes away much of the cost-saving part of it too.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 4 13:18:34 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 18:53:36 2021.

There is plenty of space above the Bowery (J/Z) station to allow a connection ramp from Christie St to the Nassau St line. It had been built for a possible 3rd Ave Triboro subway line. From there to Brooklyn. Yes, I have also thought about an IND Court St to Brooklyn, as well.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 13:53:04 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 12:18:59 2021.

Pre-pandemic, I saw plenty of groups of 2 adults taking the train into the city in the PM rush hour.

One reason being that taking the train allows you to get drunk. Others may just not be comfortable with the roads, the parking, and the traffic.





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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Dec 4 17:10:05 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 13:53:04 2021.

"One reason being that taking the train allows you to get drunk."

Especially if you're going to the Garden to see the Islanders!



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Re: IND Second system

Posted by WayneJay on Sun Dec 5 16:46:49 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 3 11:03:19 2021.

Agreed! Just thinking about my employer. Many entire departments are going permanently WFH, and others 2 or 3-day (per week) hybrid. It's now clear that much of the workforce can perform 100% of their jobs from home, and many are pivoting in that direction. This will affect not only transit, but eateries, and so on. No doubt that commuter rail/bus takes a hard hit.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 17:47:17 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by WayneJay on Sun Dec 5 16:46:49 2021.

i hope not. work from home ain't good for society. plus most people can't be trusted to perform efficiently when alone. and bosses like to see the workers work at work.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by WayneJay on Sun Dec 5 18:07:52 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 17:47:17 2021.

I get the impacts to local economies and such, but I disagree that most employees can't be trusted. I say this because (using myself as an example)... If I don't do my work, it will show in due time. Like many others, I can say that I get even more done when I'm working from home. I currently work a 2-day per week hybrid schedule which I like, but a lot is being done to shift toward a sizable portion of the workforce working remotely. I know in the case of my employer, they're giving up some office leases because they'll no longer need the space.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 18:58:47 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by WayneJay on Sun Dec 5 18:07:52 2021.

don't confuse your own circumstances for the general population. such options are really not viable for i'd say the majority of jobs. it's a damn rare niche situation.

it's hyped like crazy but i still know that probably 95 % of all work has to be done in the workplace.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by K. Trout on Sun Dec 5 19:03:38 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 17:47:17 2021.

work from home ain't good for society

Maybe, but people will find other ways to socialize that don't involve work.

plus most people can't be trusted to perform efficiently when alone

I find this very difficult to believe in any working environment, especially white-collar. If most of your employees fail to meet expectations, either you hired wrong, trained wrong, or have unrealistic expectations.

bosses like to see the workers work at work.

I can't imagine what it's like to be a person with such an obsessive need for control that they constantly peer over their employees' shoulders. It sounds miserable. Any manager like that should not find themselves surprised when employees quit.


To use my job as an example: my time is tracked only so that a number of hours can be billed to clients. Nobody cares when I do any of my work as long as I hit deadlines and don't miss meetings. Nothing has changed much for us in the past two years, and every department has now proven that their job can be done without mandatory office attendance 5 days a week, to the point where the company abandoned plans to require everyone back. I do go in occasionally when it's more convenient or for a change of scenery, but that's on my own preference.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Dec 5 19:16:25 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 18:58:47 2021.

don't confuse your own circumstances for the general population. such options are really not viable for i'd say the majority of jobs. it's a damn rare niche situation.
it's hyped like crazy but i still know that probably 95 % of all work has to be done in the workplace.


As of two months ago, the latest information available, the federal Department of Labor said that 13% of employed people in the US were WFH at least part of the time. There was no breakdown available between full time WFH'ers and those on hybrid schedules.

One more thing the government said was that even at the peak of WFH, in the pre-vaccine spring and summer of 2020, no more than one-third of working people were WFH. Of course there were many people out of work back then. Another point is that some people have always been WFH even long before Covid.

It's easy to overestimate the extent of WFH because (1) it gets all sorts of media attention, and (2) it's concentrated in major urban areas rather than spread out around the country.





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Re: IND Second system

Posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 21:16:00 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Dec 5 19:16:25 2021.

...and it sounds hip. but until inexpensive tactile holographic display technology becomes a thing, it ain't happening.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 21:43:16 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by K. Trout on Sun Dec 5 19:03:38 2021.

niche. look around you. "office jobs" have always been a small percentage of the workforce. and i've worked in every sort of office you could imagine. offices filled with stuff you wouldn't know what to do with. i preferred office work. but most people i know didn't work in that environment.

all of those people couldn't "work from home".

and another thing: it is, actually, a noble and indeed grand thing to wrap a good percentage of your life around remaining fit and diligent, gladly if not eagerly leaving your comfortable abode and facing the world with a smile and a will.

logging on to "work" still scraggly and smelly from sleep, puttering around in your slippers, not seeing anybody bar little popup windows on the monitor, dealing with only yourself... sure ain't a good thing.

same jobs, two guys, one does it at home, one does it in the office. guess what? office boy's gonna kick home boy's inefficient ass. boss is gonna dig on office boy's git up 'n go effect. home boy, if boss thinks of him at all its gonna be like, wait, who?

if you doubt this you've never worked in an office.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 6 00:04:43 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Dec 5 19:16:25 2021.

One reason it gets so much media attention is because writing articles and think pieces is the kind of thing that readily lends itself to WFH.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 6 08:34:31 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by K. Trout on Sun Dec 5 19:03:38 2021.

My employer in the suburbs just extended WFH until June, 2022 while "task forces" and surveys analyze the entire work environment.

They were never fans of WFH unless there was a situation with a toddler, or physical injury. But I think they see the world has not cracked, the work got done, and the clients have not walked becuase of it, since March 2020. So nopw they look at where they can save some rent, not redo work stations to socially distance, and dont want to be part of the Great Resignation. This goes on even though some hiring managers can't stand not micro-managaing - they have no say.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by zac on Mon Dec 6 08:35:42 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Dec 3 13:30:20 2021.

Traffic in Brooklyn is so bad, nobody drives there anymore (sorry Yogi).

But really, the traffic in Brooklyn has gotten a lot worse, especially starting past noon. Between people WFH and people that may have taken a bus or subway to get around, the increase in volume is enough to bring some neighborhoods to a standstill, and the highways are always jammed.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 6 08:37:24 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by zac on Mon Dec 6 08:35:42 2021.

People who are allegedly working form home are out doing errands.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Dec 6 16:24:03 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by ntrainride on Sun Dec 5 21:16:00 2021.

this rather long post belongs on OT chat ,not here.how about moving it over guys.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Dec 6 17:42:50 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by TUNNELRAT on Mon Dec 6 16:24:03 2021.

I would say that discussions about WFH are on topic, as the future course of WFH will have a major impact on subway and commuter rail ridership and service levels.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Dec 6 18:19:08 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Dec 6 17:42:50 2021.

IAWTP, especially here as the discussion began with regard to the need for subway expansion, and WFH was brought up as a valid counterpoint.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Dec 6 21:08:34 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by zac on Mon Dec 6 08:35:42 2021.

Yep. Every morning I hear about the BQE being tied up from the Verrazano to the Brooklyn Bridge. On good days its only from 65th St.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Dec 6 21:27:29 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 16:41:18 2021.

I gotcha
I just ranted a little

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Dec 6 21:29:45 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by zac on Mon Dec 6 08:35:42 2021.

Same thing in the Bronx.
I donít know what else to say man itís dreadful. To me itís the type of thing that makes wish I could retire now. Not the work but the travel. And the parking! Holy smokes man itís out of control!!!

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Dec 6 21:30:36 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 4 11:41:42 2021.

Good one

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Dec 6 23:18:36 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by K. Trout on Sun Dec 5 19:03:38 2021.

As a network administrator, one of the most common questions I have always had about people who work from home is "how can we tell if they are working?" That hasn't gone away, nor will it. Eventually, those who want to work from home will have a technological price to pay-- they may be required to install remote-operated cameras or keystroke logging software, for example. It will be either that, or you have to work in an office, or not at all. In a society where coercion and technological tyranny has become the norm, this is hardly far-fetched.

As far as the railroads and subways are concerned, as important as the work from home trend may be is the exodus to the suburbs, where regulation and expenses are less. Railroads will need to adapt to a world where central business districts aren't the only places that people want to go. Those companies that do have offices will have them in less-expensive, safer places with lighter regulation.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Dec 6 23:22:41 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Dec 6 23:18:36 2021.

👍🏼

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 00:12:43 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 6 08:34:31 2021.

work-from-home is unavoidably inefficient as hell. "group effect"...don't discount that. unless you think that human qualities and human behaviour has suddenly changed because we have all the latest shiny geegaws.

where you think the expression "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" came from? most of us are stinkers. of freeking COURSE we're gonna goof off if we, ahem, work at home. i sure as hell would. like the man said, it's gonna be keyloggers and two way video. and who the hell wants their dwelling invaded like that? who the hell wants a boss to see inside your home?

also, barely any jobs can be done at home. basically, majority of all jobs are "places you go to".

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 00:28:03 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 00:12:43 2021.

While my POV is likely skewed by living in the SF BayArea, I can certainly say that the software trade does not require being in the same building. A friend currently WFH from google ad moved to them after a number of years working for Rde Hat. RH is centered in Research Triangle in NC, but he was in a small workgroup w/ one person in Czechia, and one down under. Maybe twice a year they would jet to Raleigh to be in afew face to face mtgs, then back to their lairs.
Obviously that can't work for a barista, or a baker, but a neighbor of mine now works for COSF 3 days home 2 office. Most of her work is at a computer; she has fiber to the modem on her desk at home.

I, as an electrician, clearly have to go to a jobsite.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 01:14:24 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 7 00:28:03 2021.

as i pointed out, jobs like that are extremely niche. very tiny percent of total workforce. so the observations you related here are, for the great majority of workers...irrelevant both statistically and realistically.

also...you're kidding, right? "...fiber to the modem...? what's his computer? a colecovision adam?

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 06:36:43 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 7 00:12:43 2021.

All the corporate office park parking lots near me have ranged from 70 - 99% empty since March, 2020. I would not call that "barely any jobs". They are not all IT people. This is largely a pharma area.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by AlM on Tue Dec 7 07:05:01 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Dec 6 23:18:36 2021.

As far as the railroads and subways are concerned, as important as the work from home trend may be is the exodus to the suburbs, where regulation and expenses are less

That is the very latest thinking of 1980, when places like Westchester Avenue in White Plains started to get built up.

The trouble was that pretty soon you had widely distributed office buildings that weren't dense enough for rail, but dense enough to cause miserable traffic. See I-287 (pretty much its entire length from Rye to Perth Amboy). Back in 1981 I sometimes had to drive to Piscataway NJ and the traffic was bad then. From 1985 to 1990 I worked on Westchester Ave. and that traffic was terrible too.





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Re: IND Second system

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Dec 7 07:35:31 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Dec 6 23:18:36 2021.

So is the future layout of cities something like a hurricane with an "empty" eye in the middle? Just lots of suburbs radiating out from a CBD that nobody wants to go to anymore? This too would be good to address for purposes of subway operations.

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Work From Home (WAS: IND Second system)

Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Dec 7 08:31:03 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Dec 6 23:18:36 2021.

FIFY - carry on...

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by AlM on Tue Dec 7 09:20:12 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Dec 7 07:35:31 2021.

Just lots of suburbs radiating out from a CBD that nobody wants to go to anymore?

Exactly. Nobody goes to the CBD any more. It's too crowded.



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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Dec 7 10:39:31 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Dec 6 23:18:36 2021.

As far as the railroads and subways are concerned, as important as the work from home trend may be is the exodus to the suburbs, where regulation and expenses are less. Railroads will need to adapt to a world where central business districts aren't the only places that people want to go. Those companies that do have offices will have them in less-expensive, safer places with lighter regulation.

That's part of it, yet the real change may be adapting to travel patterns which are more spread out, in other words ridership that isn't so heavily peaked during rush hours. That's not necessarily a terrible thing, as heavily peaked service is inefficient and expensive to provide.


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Re: IND Second system

Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 10:51:19 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Dec 7 10:39:31 2021.

It also means zone expresses go away.

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Re: IND Second system

Posted by AlM on Tue Dec 7 11:10:22 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 7 10:51:19 2021.

You probably will have a lot fewer trains that only serve 3 or 4 stations.

But you can still have the pre-pandemic Harlem Line situation of three different zones (to Crestwood, Crestwood to NWP, and WP to Southeast).



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