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IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Dec 2 20:13:48 2021 It looks like the northern section of the Second Ave. subway will become a reality, but what about other lines proposed by that plan - the line on Hillside Ave. in Queens was supposed to go as far as Little Neck Parkway, and the Archer Ave. line is currently ending at Parsons/ Archer but it was meant to go much further. Any ideas, folks ? The population in Eastern Queens is a lot more than it was back in the 1930's, and adding more bus routes is not doing things right. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 2 20:21:45 2021, in response to IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Dec 2 20:13:48 2021. Forget it. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 09:30:05 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Thu Dec 2 20:21:45 2021. Why throw in the towel so easily ? I know that past corruption has and will keep progress in this area stuck in limbo, but I would prefer to be optimistic - the Hudson river tunnels are going to get some much needed attention, and not too because if procrastination continues and a disaster strikes, politicians will be falling all over each other pointing fingers and trying to place blame. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 09:31:46 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 09:30:05 2021. The towel was thrown in and burned decades ago. Railfans talking about it does not raise the issue. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 09:40:52 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 09:31:46 2021. I do vote - that is one way to make politicians listen. One drop of water might not be much, but put enough of them together and you have a flood. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 09:47:46 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 09:40:52 2021. Politicians function on campaign contributions, not votes. MTA is Manhattan centric and doesn't give two shits about eastern Queens. Free bus transfers are good enough as far as they are concerned. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 3 10:15:30 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 09:30:05 2021. I would prefer to be pessimistic, but I’m not going to say “never.” |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 3 10:16:53 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 09:47:46 2021. So? Construction companies would benefit greatly and so could make campaign contributions to build new subways. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 10:19:08 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 3 10:16:53 2021. It's now irrelevant, as WFH has made subway expansion pointless. And it's looking more and more as if WFH is here to stay :( |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 10:34:14 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 3 10:16:53 2021. It does not matter, obviously.It will take them 8 years to do SAS Phase II even though 16 of 28 blocks of subway are there. Their offering plate is full. Eastern Queens got Atlantic ticket, weekend City ticket, Metrocard free transfers, more LIRR service at St Albans, Hollis, and Queens Village over the decades. As far as MTA is concerned, the issue is closed. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 10:36:28 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 10:19:08 2021. People in these areas tend to have service jobs that do not lend themselves to WFH. Most commuter rail suburbs are a different matter and different demographic. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 10:37:28 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 10:34:14 2021. Locust Manor I meant to say, not Queens Village. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 3 11:03:19 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 10:19:08 2021. Not at current levels. And most poor folks don't have WFH kind of jobs.I think commuter rail will take the bigger long term hit. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 12:32:06 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 10:19:08 2021. To a certain degree that is true. But little by little commuting to NYC is coming back. Just listen to traffic reports. The vehicle volume is at pre pandemic levels & they all aren't coming in to see the tree. As for the commuter railroads, the new big market to snare is the discretionary traveler, as in weekends & holidays. That market has been growing steadily since before the pandemic. Especially during the holidays, folks will come in to see the tree, rocketts, the lights on 5th Ave. a Broadway show etc. And they will use the train to beat the traffic, $4+ a gallon of gas, tolls & the outrageous parking fees.After all, there's nothing prettier in the Country than Manhattan during the holiday season. |
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| (1591623) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 13:01:05 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 12:32:06 2021. LIRR cut mid-day Port Jeff weekday service from 90 minute to 2-hour intervals on Nov 15th - again.Oyster Bay weekend service remains at 2 hour intervals with lay-ups at Richmond Hill between runs for 1 hour and 55 minutes. LIRR's only ridership increase over the last 20 years has been off-peak. So much for Phillip Eng's Manhattan & Ronkonkoma RR Company rebounding. Hochul needs to send him his walking papers. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 13:21:09 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 13:01:05 2021. "LIRR's only ridership increase over the last 20 years has been off-peak."Bingo! That's where the growth potential market is in the 21st century. |
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| (1591627) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Allan on Fri Dec 3 13:26:51 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 09:40:52 2021. You vote but then so do NIMBY's.Do you think people in affected neighborhoods would support any subway construction? |
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Posted by Allan on Fri Dec 3 13:26:53 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 09:40:52 2021. You vote but then so do NIMBY's.Do you think people in affected neighborhoods would support any subway construction? |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Dec 3 13:30:20 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 12:32:06 2021. Little by little nothing! The roads have never been worse except for some wild days in the fall of 2001. It’s outrageous out here.Last year it took me 15-20 minutes to drive to work now it’s 40-50 minutes. Which is worse than the years leading up to the shutdown. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 13:33:02 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Dec 3 13:30:20 2021. Yet when I drive by commercial office parks, they are still 75% empty. I don't know where all these people are going. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Dec 3 13:53:56 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 13:33:02 2021. I don’t live anywhere near a commercial office park so I wouldn’t know. I live and work completely in NYC. |
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| (1591632) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Dec 3 13:55:13 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 13:33:02 2021. People are out doing stuff, even if they have a WFH option. They want to have stories to tell at the bars and the dinner table and you have to go somewhere to have enough stories worth telling. (There are only so many stories about "my Amazon delivery coming two days late" or "I wasn't sure which room my cat was in" that people want to hear.)If the local neighborhood is so car-centric that you practically need your car to go get groceries or to the doctor, than WFH won't have any impact on that traffic. "Despite the technological breakthroughs that have caused the death of distance, it turns out that the world isn't flat. It's paved." -Edward Glasser in "The Triumph of the City" |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Fri Dec 3 14:00:50 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 12:32:06 2021. I think a big part of the traffic increase is from people who are still afraid to take mass transit because they think they'll have a much greater chance of getting COVID. They used to be mass transit riders but are not at the moment.--Mark |
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| (1591634) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Dec 3 14:01:22 2021, in response to IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Dec 2 20:13:48 2021. The population in Eastern Queens is a lot more than it was back in the 1930'sIt's still practically suburban though. I lived in Northeastern Queens for 10 years. Ties are stronger with Nassau than with the rest of NYC. It would be interesting to compare how many people in Eastern Queens work in Manhattan as opposed to Nassau. Anyway, that's not to say that TOD (transit-oriented development), or something like an induced demand, can't have a place. But for the moment I'd say that any subway along either Union Tpke or Hillside Ave past around 188th St would be more focused on inducing demand rather than serving an existing clientele. Bear in mind that these new riders need to be fit through the existing East River tubes as well. |
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| (1591635) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 14:07:02 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Dec 3 14:01:22 2021. They would not be new riders, but diverted bus riders, transfer point shifted further east, or walk to the subway. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 3 15:45:38 2021, in response to IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Dec 2 20:13:48 2021. I'll "worry" about the IND Second System after the SAS is completed down to Pine St, or wherever. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Dec 3 15:51:54 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 10:19:08 2021. If you look at how much office space that tech companies are still buying around the country, I'd say that you're wrong. No doubt that many workers will have more flexibility and more will work from home than before, but working in offices is here to stay. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Dan on Fri Dec 3 15:59:21 2021, in response to IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Dec 2 20:13:48 2021. ' The population in Eastern Queens is a lot more than it was back in the 1930's, and adding more bus routes is not doing things right. 'And I'm certain that today's population of stable middle-class eastern Queens does not want the subway extended into their safe quiet communities. |
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| (1591642) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 16:30:43 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Dan on Fri Dec 3 15:59:21 2021. The may not like their half hour or 45 minute bus rides that stop every 2 blocks to get to the subway either. |
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| (1591645) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 16:41:18 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Dec 3 13:30:20 2021. Litle by little on the train, that is. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 18:34:38 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Allan on Fri Dec 3 13:26:51 2021. They have been overcome before. They're noisy & sometimes have a legit beef. But looking at the big picture, they can't stand in the way of progress. The benefits of many must outweigh the objections of a few. |
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| (1591652) | |
Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Dec 3 18:44:28 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 16:41:18 2021. Jim: Passenger traffic on Metro-North is slowly increasing. Yet when I ride the train I see most of the parking lots on about 1/3 to 1/2 full. Even the lot at Croton is half empty. That place used to be so packed middays that a New York City cockroach couldn't fit in there. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 18:50:02 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Dec 3 11:03:19 2021. Two not-yet-completed commuter rail projects that I am sure WFH has made largely irrelevant are East Side Access and double-tracking the LIRR Ronkonkoma line. Daily commuters want single-seat rides and minimal walking/subway riding once in Manhattan, and furthermore are highly time-sensitive. Off-peak recreational riders, not so much.In fact, if ESA and Ronkonkoma were much earlier in the construction process, and certainly if they were still in the planning stages, it might be best just to call them off. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 18:50:30 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 18:34:38 2021. That is what I am saying - I know that the NIMBY crowd is out and about, but at some point ( I hope ) they will see the light or get overwhelmed by those who do and get things done. By the way, what does WTH mean ? |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 18:53:36 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Dec 3 15:45:38 2021. I would like to see it extended down not only to Pine Street, but also into Brooklyn's Court Street station, where it then can go into the Brooklyn IND lines. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 18:55:46 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 16:30:43 2021. I live in Eastern Queens and waiting for a bus during a winter snow storm made my mind up for me. The subway needs to be extended. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 18:55:51 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 3 16:30:43 2021. I live in Eastern Queens and waiting for a bus during a winter snow storm made my mind up for me. The subway needs to be extended. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 19:00:15 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 18:50:02 2021. I don't know what WFH means - can someone explain ? |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 19:00:55 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Dec 3 18:44:28 2021. Passenger traffic on Metro-North is slowly increasing. Yet when I ride the train I see most of the parking lots on about 1/3 to 1/2 full.Even the lot at Croton is half empty. That place used to be so packed middays that a New York City cockroach couldn't fit in there. Every so often I drive through the huge (6,000+ spaces) southside parking lot at LIRR Ronkonkoma during working hours to get a sense of what ridership might be like and a couple of times have posted drive through videos on my You Tube channel. One of the perks of working nonstandard hours :) My best guess is that the lot, which would have been completely full during the Before Times, has gone from about one-third full earlier in 2021 to somewhat in excess of half full now. Something like 60%. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 19:02:33 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 19:00:15 2021. I don't know what WFH means - can someone explain ?Working from home. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 19:07:42 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Dec 3 18:44:28 2021. Winter is coming. When the snowflakes fall & pile up, there'll be pile ups left and right on the Taconic, I84, I 87, I 684 & I95 mostly by folks that forgot how to drive in the winter. With that, those folks stuck in traffic & were afraid to use the train b/c of fear of catching Covid will suddenly re-think their commuting methods & come back to the train.Reasonoing being that there chances of being killed on a snow covered highway are much greater than dying from catching Covid by riding on a commuter train, |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by ntrainride on Fri Dec 3 19:20:39 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 19:00:55 2021. deer park still gets filled. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 3 20:05:20 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 18:50:30 2021. What the hell. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 3 20:06:25 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Dec 3 18:50:30 2021. In case it was a typo, WFH means working from home. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 3 20:33:14 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 18:50:02 2021. double-tracking the LIRR Ronkonkoma linePeople who need outbound service in the AM rush don't typically hold jobs that can be done from home. (I'm actually slightly an authority on that, having ridden morning outbound White Plains North locals for a few years.) |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 3 23:05:30 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Dec 3 19:07:42 2021. I guarantee you the covidiots (the ones who wear masks outdoors) think otherwise. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 3 23:08:51 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Dan on Fri Dec 3 15:59:21 2021. Yes, they would. It’s not 1977 anymore. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Sat Dec 4 05:51:47 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 3 20:06:25 2021. Yes, it was a typo. thanks for giving me the information. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 4 08:18:25 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 18:50:02 2021. I should add: pre-pandemic inbound PM rush hour trains were more crowded than outbound AM rush hour trains, and contained an even smaller proportion of people who might now be working from home. |
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Re: IND Second system |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 4 10:35:53 2021, in response to Re: IND Second system, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 3 18:50:02 2021. Lack of double track meant 3 hour gaps in reverse peak service.Not acceptable. If you were talking about the 10 track Ronkonkoma yard expansion, you'd have a point. It was a boondoggle, probabaly to blow their capital budget so they would not do something productive, like electrify to Northport or Port Jeff. They will never have need for more than 2 or 3 more yard tracks, even post ESA and post Covid, which amounts to all of 2 additional rush frequencies on top of what was there in 2019. Off peak passengers are far more apt to jump in their cars than commuters. |
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