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| Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate (1561383) | |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 10:37:51 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 01:41:07 2020. Where is your source that it's "sheer misery for most people" ?Furthermore, when schools are closed, someone must be home. Business hours are best kept with commutation delays and social distancing issues eliminated. They are paying rents until their leases are up whether people are residing in them or not. How is unoccupied space verses occupied space an "unmitigated disaster" when the money is spent regardless ? Given how most corporations, university, and government staffers are so decentralized, with people with common direct reporting managers scattered across multiple sites within the US and in India, and have been for the least 15-20 years, it makes no difference if they reside in an office or not. My whole group has been WFH since March 18, it runs through Dec 31, and I suspect there is now way we will be back in the office until June. Given 15 months of WFH, it should then be apparent an office is not needed except as a place to stash IT hardware. People throw around the word "productivity" too loosely. Performance is measured by completing tasks on time, and meeting target dates. Where the people are sitting is completely transparent to the customer or in-house, or external user. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 10:44:39 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 10:37:51 2020. I think people will forget in the future, and bosses will miss micromanaging.Aside from the fact I see heavy traffic when/if I go outside, and all of those office parking lots in the sunbelt are actually open for the smaller local companies I just don't buy nationally, that this will be a permenant thing. Maybe you will be grandfathered in and get to stay home forever, but new employees. Maybe not. I just don't see it as a thing that is more than it is now, which is not even more than it was 10 years ago. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 11:08:05 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 10:44:39 2020. Bosses sit behind their terminals, monitor their "dashboards", Gannt charts, count open service tickets, yammer on conference calls all day, and see which projects are "yellow" or "red".Much IT staff at Level 1 and Level 2 are in India. They can't be micro-managed by their physical location. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 12:56:31 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 10:34:48 2020. Dunno ... at least in the city, I suspect that most companies want well-running transit because it gets their workers in on time. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 12:58:50 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 11:08:05 2020. I was thinking of everyone else, but a lot of departments are set-up like this today, not just IT. Thanks to there being IT I guess.I've noticed from experience it doesn't matter how much money you make over min wage, some still like to count how long you're in the bathroom it seems like. You ever see these things called open floorplans? Got VP's sitting out there with the six-figure making staff as though you're in an elementary school. Goodness gracious |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 13:01:40 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 12:56:31 2020. They want you on-time. But I disagree as to how considerate they are for caring how you get there. Or all of these companies wouldn't be flocking to Florida, Texas, and Kansas City. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 13:01:59 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 11:08:05 2020. Much IT staff at Level 1 and Level 2 are in India. They can't be micro-managed by their physical location.That brings up a very big issue. If corporations stick with working from home, they might start thinking that it functions just as well if the workers are in India or some other country, and the next thing you know there are fewer jobs in the US. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 13:04:46 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 13:01:59 2020. They already do, lots of groups outsource to India and WIPRO, not just IT.Some very long time ago I was hired in a mass hiring blitz from a large corporation. What happened was my department was in India, but the exchange rate changed so that they could hire Americans again. The folks in India got paid much differently (they don't do hourly afaik), and as such, the qulaity of the work wasn't even there either. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 13:05:53 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 13:04:46 2020. PS, ever since, I always tell people, there's nothing you can do that someone oversea's can't.Lots of stuff moved to the Phillipines a few years ago. I hear a lot of call centers are in Israel even. We're already global. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 13:10:42 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 10:37:51 2020. They are paying rents until their leases are up whether people are residing in them or not.Commercial leases aren't like one-year apartment leases. They can run for a decade or even longer. As long as the companies are paying rents, they might as well get some value out of them. Otherwise it's like the old saying, buying oats for a dead horse. People throw around the word "productivity" too loosely. Performance is measured by completing tasks on time, and meeting target dates. Where the people are sitting is completely transparent to the customer or in-house, or external user. While they're hard to measure, there are pychological factors too. People being social creatures, most of them need regular contact with others - and I don't mean "virtual" contact. To use my favorite term, chitchat around the office watercooler serves a psychic need even if the content is trivial. And sometimes just being around other people all day is beneficial even if there isn't much interaction. The reverse is that seeing no one except possibly family members all day every day, that's a recipe for unhappiness. And unhappy workers aren't productive workers. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Nov 16 13:19:15 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 13:10:42 2020. I have to interject again on this OT thread." To use my favorite term, chitchat around the office watercooler serves a psychic need even if the content is trivial. And sometimes just being around other people all day is beneficial even if there isn't much interaction. The reverse is that seeing no one except possibly family members all day every day, that's a recipe for unhappiness. And unhappy workers aren't productive workers." I had an assignment last year in a companies headquarters. I worked with an old classmate, and behind closed doors, we added our total pay together (we saw the contract that the agency charged the company), and figured out how much money our chitchatting costed the company. It was very amusing. And you just proved, the employers are saving money by not having you chit-chat! And again, no boss cares about your mental health. The number of studies, and data, and wishes people have that have never been listened to fills several encyclopedia's. That office air is known as being TOXIC! Heck, I don't even think most MBA's have a clue of what their doing. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 13:34:37 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 13:10:42 2020. Employers have long stopped giving a shit about the psychological well-being of their employees. Get the work done on time, and if you don't like it, there's the door. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 13:38:52 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Nov 16 13:01:59 2020. 80% of IT headcount are already in India, or on-shore Indians.It's an abuse of the H1B VISA system, but that is a whole other topic. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Nov 16 13:53:16 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Nov 15 16:50:40 2020. How do you know that people who work from home are miserable?I agree that this is one reason why transit ridership is so low but I don't agree that people who work from home are miserable. --Mark |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 16 14:07:08 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Nov 16 13:53:16 2020. I don't agree that people who work from home are miserable.There's a complete range. I have a colleague who went back to the office on absolutely the first allowable day. Others aren't going back for a single day until they are vaccinated. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Nov 16 14:08:12 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 16 14:07:08 2020. Thank you. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Nov 16 15:21:16 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by AlM on Sun Nov 15 17:31:28 2020. There's also the huge issue of parents with children. How can they go to work when they can't send their kids to school or daycare? |
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| (1561572) | |
Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Nov 16 16:42:41 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Easy on Mon Nov 16 15:21:16 2020. and, how can they work done while terndingthe kids? |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Nov 16 20:00:53 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Nov 16 16:42:41 2020. As best they can. Work wasn't something invented after daycare was thought up. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Nov 17 07:21:23 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Easy on Mon Nov 16 20:00:53 2020. When work was invented, taking your children to work was considered OK. :) |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Nov 17 07:43:00 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by AlM on Tue Nov 17 07:21:23 2020. And double income wasn't so common.I know a couple with two kids, both spouses work and they say that almost one spouse's salary goes to child care. Not sure how much they're exaggerating, but I suppose they did the math, including tax considerations, and it works out for them. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 09:23:27 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Nov 17 07:43:00 2020. I used to assume people knew what they were doing when I was younger too. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 09:25:08 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Nov 16 13:53:16 2020. There is a scientific fact that there is a syndrome where there are people who actually get depressed working at home. It's recommended to move your desk, to a window or something to help some people.But this is subchat. We're more interested in feelings than fact. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 09:27:25 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 13:34:37 2020. Even if you have a very nice to your face backstabbing overlord in the office,Where's the on-site nurse, company newspaper office, or even the subsidized cafeteria of times past? |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 17 09:42:36 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 09:27:25 2020. Employees, the nurse, the snack and newsstand, the subsidized cafeteria - all Expenses = BAD. The REAL employees work for Cognizant. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 17 09:46:26 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 09:23:27 2020. My mother took me to work during school vacation in the 1960's. That's how I learned rush hour operations of the Jamaica el, how to use the subway, and observe operations and conflicts in an office environment - good training for life. Kids are very observant and perceptive - more so than adults. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Nov 17 09:50:59 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 09:23:27 2020. My assumption in this case is that while the double income is immediately mitigated by the child care costs, the future benefits relevant to having a stable job make it worthwhile. Still, I think the benefits of having a parent spending more quality time with a child need to be at least considered, even if they are not financial. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Nov 17 09:58:04 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 09:25:08 2020. The simplest way of putting it is that it's much much harder to "leave work at work." I suppose it depends on the demands of your particular profession, but without some quality interior discipline, it becomes much too easy to choose to "just check" your e-mail off hours, only to get unexpectedly drawn into work mode when you should be relaxing.I speak from experience both of myself and many people I know. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 11:03:21 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Nov 17 09:50:59 2020. My ultra-right wing economics professor said the same.So naturally he's wrong and you have to send your kid away at all cost. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 11:04:05 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 17 09:42:36 2020. This got me to chuckle. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 17 11:08:26 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 11:03:21 2020. Such professors see employees only as widgets in one of their textbook diagrams or silly journals they publish in. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 11:48:01 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 17 11:08:26 2020. You have it backwards. Plus, he hates those textbooks.You calculate the cost (which I disagree with NF, I doubt as many people do as they claim they themselves do (ie liers)). Is it worth it? Probably not. The cost of parenting is not free either, stay at home spouses are value-adding. And sometimes you want to forgo the oppotunity cost and do things yourself. it's not all a formula, there's people involved. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by ntrainride on Wed Nov 18 17:18:13 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Bill West on Sun Nov 15 03:32:50 2020. americans sure are turning (= being forced to) into pussies. why would our "fearless leaders" want us to turn into pussies?? |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 09:45:28 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Bill West on Sun Nov 15 14:33:13 2020. I told a few people I talk to over the summer that I am not looking forward to this winter.They didn't get that it'll peak again. I could tell that the population at large thought the summer was the "new normal" and it wouldn't get any worse. Last Winter in the New York City was a one time thing only effecting NYC. Of course I guess I'm always wrong! By the way, I read yesterday these 4 state senators where I live came down with covid. One guy (Republican) says he turns around the second he sees someone without a mask. He's 85. He has suspicions where he got it from. I mention him because he got the cocktail in the hospital, similar to Trumps regiment but not as intense. He says it's upsetting to think about what would've happened back in March when we didn't know what to do, and for all the people who had it back then. I know you had to deal with it the hard way. Now they have expensive treatments. Which I doubt it still a cakewalk. So ignoring all of the self-diagnosed healthy people (like sp on this board, and others elsewhere) who seem to be the ones that get sick and spread it around; when I see jerks claim the survival rate is up and ignoring the illness altogether, they are not admitting that the current survival rates are WITH TREATMENTS. Not without! Where I interject as I walk by and say "I don't want it at all, surviving or not" |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 09:46:46 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by ntrainride on Wed Nov 18 17:18:13 2020. Only certain aspects of society. You can still pump your fist in the air, cuss and give racially or politically charged rants.Even without disease, who wants to commute in NYC anymore? For decades NYC has given people all over the country a bad impression. That's where the anti-transit movement comes from. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 19 11:33:23 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 09:45:28 2020. Better chance at surviving, but your respiratory capacity may be significantly reduced for life. Blood clotting is also a frequent occurence. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 11:49:56 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 19 11:33:23 2020. I have a very nagging feeling in my gut we're going to be hearing about the aftereffects some years from now. I don't know if it's going to be from the lung capacity that you mentioned, or the kidney and heart damage that's not diagnosed because no one's doing blood testing, or maybe mysterious clotting and heart attacks that's been effecting some asymptomatics. I don't know what it'll be, but it's the one dread I can't shake off. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 19 12:03:02 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 11:49:56 2020. Repeated studies show correlation of blood type and death rates. You are worse off with A, best off with O. I don't know how blood type correlates with ethnicity.We do not know how long the antibodies and vaccines are good for. The only disease that has ever been eradicated is small pox. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Nov 19 12:45:32 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 09:46:46 2020. Even without disease, who wants to commute in NYC anymore? For decades NYC has given people all over the country a bad impression. That's where the anti-transit movement comes from.Commuting by transit has its downsides, but being stuck in traffic is no picnic either. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 15:39:12 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Thu Nov 19 12:03:02 2020. I forgot about the brain damage as well. No clue how prevelant. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Nov 20 07:11:36 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 09:46:46 2020. There will always be some people, especially in North America, for whom the only acceptable mode of commuting is in their private automobile, and that's no matter what the coverage and frequency and cleanliness of public transit. They have predetermined that public transit is always bad.In most other cases, pre-pandemic the current system was getting the job done in NYC with the possible exception of the most remote parts of the city. As of 2019 I felt that when I used the system (all different places, all different times) I had at least a 95% chance of getting to where I was going within 10 minutes of when I expected to get there (based on timetables, Google Maps research, knowledge of planned changes, etc.), and only maybe a 1% chance (at most) of having a significant disruption to my day's plans because I got unexpectedly stuck somewhere mid-trip. (The other 4% being somewhere in the middle) IMO existing transportation infrastructure in North America is so car-centric that to me it's not so much that transit agencies are bad (although they certainly can be) as it is that they have such a steep hill to climb, almost insurmountable, if the plan is to get people out of their cars. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 21 17:51:32 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 16 10:37:51 2020. Agreed 100%. |
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Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 21 17:53:24 2020, in response to Re: Not good for transit ... New York has nation's lowest office occupancy rate, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Nov 21 17:51:32 2020. NYC probably has the highest public transit market share too under normal times. |
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