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| (1557435) | |
Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 12:17:44 2020 Tuscarora Almanac - September 10, 1932 - The Book of First Runs Manhattan, New York Independent Subway System The Independent Subway begins operation of IND 8th Avenue Line between 207th Street and Chambers Street / Hudson Terminal. New stations are opened at 207th Street, Dyckman Street (200th Street), 190th Street, 181st Street, 175th Street, 168th Street-Broadway, 163rd Street-Amsterdam Avenue, 155th Street, 145th Street (UL), 135th Street, 125th Street, 116th Street, 110th Street (Cathedral Parkway), 103rd Street , 96th Street, 86th Street, 81st Street, 72nd Street, 59th Street, 50th Street (UL), 42nd Street (UL), 34th Street, 23rd Street, 14th Street, West 4th Street (UL), Spring Street, Canal Street-Holland Tunnel and Chambers Street / Hudson Terminal. UL - Upper Level The stations at 103rd Street through 72nd Street are on two levels. Northbound trains are on the upper level while southbound trains use the lower level. The station at Chambers Street / Hudson Terminal has two platforms. The two track island platform which will be used by the through trains to Brooklyn is known as "Chambers Street". The two track island platform with bumpers at the south end is known as "Hudson Terminal" (today's World Trade Center). Source: “New York Subway, Fifty Years of Millions”, (Electric Railroads No. 23 / October 1954) by Mr. Herman Rinke Ed. Note: In commemoration of the 75th Anniversary on the opening of the Eighth Avenue Subway the TA ran an “A” train from 168th Street to Chambers Street on September 10, 2007. The consist was 100-484-1575-381-401-1802. Tuscarora Almanac - September 10-11, 1977 - The Book of Last Runs Jamaica, New York New York City Transit Authority – BMT Division This will be the last night of service on the section of the BMT Jamaica Line between 168 Street and Queens Boulevard. The last northbound "J" train arrived at 168 Street at 11:59 PM. The consist was (n) R-27 8028-9 and R-30 8528-9. The last southbound "J" train departed at 12:00 Midnight with (s) R-27 8241-0 and 8115-4. The stations at 168 Street, 160 Street and Sutphin Boulevard were closed. A new temporary terminal was established at Queens Boulevard. Free transfers are issued at Queens Boulevard to and from the Q-49 Jamaica Avenue Limited bus route. Source: New York Division Bulletin / September 1977 Tuscarora Almanac – September 10, 1989 – The Book of Last Runs Manhattan, New York Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority Manhattan Division Service is discontinued on the M-103 59th Street Crosstown Line. This route began as a horse-car line on July 18, 1863 operated by the Central Park, North & East River Railroad Company. Trolley cars began to replace the horse-cars in 1898. Buses replaced the trolleys on November 10, 1946. The route at that time ran between York Avenue – East 61st Street and West End Avenue –West 59th Street. The western terminus was extended north to West 73rd Street and Broadway on September 8, 1963. Service ran seven days a week from 6 AM to 12 midnight. The last Manhattan Bus Map to show this service was dated “1988”. Source: New York Division Bulletin /September 2003, article by Mr. Bernard Linder Tuscarora Almanac – September 10, 1990 – The Book of First Runs Dutchess County, New York Metro-North Railroad Metro-North opens the Appalachian Trail stop on the Harlem Line. It is located at MP 65.9 between Pawling and Harlem Valley-Wingdale stations. Source: New York Division Bulletin /October 2009, article by Mr. Larry Kiss Tuscarora Almanac – September 10, 1995 – The Book of Last Runs Brooklyn, New York New York City Transit Authority BMT Division Dean Street station on the BMT Franklin Avenue Line is closed. Source: ERA New York Division Bulletin / July 2003 Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 10 14:49:54 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 12:17:44 2020. Thank you as always!!I was 9 in 1977. I remember how sad I was at learning that the MTA would really shut down needed service - I'd remembered the elimination of the EE and K trains the year before, but I was shocked to learn that they'd close actual lines. It was also obvious to me that bus service was way inferior to rail service, yet here were our elected leaders saying otherwise. Of course, over the ensuing years, I've found a lot of old articles, and I find it amazing how the reporters uncritically parroted the MTA line in 1973 and 1977 about how the el structures were "antiquated". if that was true, they were implicitly making the case to get rid of ALL the els, including the (seemingly) obviously necessary 7 train. Yet no reporter questioned "why are the Jamaica and Third Avenue Lines more "antiquated" than any of the others you're keeping?" Now of course, I am NOT advocating foe the removal of ANY remaining subway line- just pointing out the flawed logic that was at work.. I even found an MTA video from the mid-70s where they themselves bragged about closing the Bronx remnant of the Third Avenue El!!- |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 15:06:25 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 10 14:49:54 2020. I even found an MTA video from the mid-70s where they themselves bragged about closing the Bronx remnant of the Third Avenue El!!- You're welcome my friend. The South Bronx was going down the tube anyway. The loss of the Third Avenue El only hastened the event. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 10 16:18:12 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 15:06:25 2020. In the early 1970's, I remember those 4 car R-12's packed like sardines, during the PM rush hour. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 10 16:56:45 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 10 16:18:12 2020. I've only seen video, from early spring 1973. to me, the service sure looked adequately used. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:06:50 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 12:17:44 2020. Happy 88th 8th Ave line! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:12:54 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:06:50 2020. Oh, and I'm still bitter about the closing of the Jamaica Ave el. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:15:31 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 10 14:49:54 2020. What was done in Jamaica was a crime. The 3rd Ave El was pre dual contracts and connected to nothing. Foolish to abandon for sure, but there was nothing obsolete or inadequate about the El in Jamaica. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 18:43:37 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:15:31 2020. The 3rd Ave El was pre dual contracts and connected to nothing. The section between Gun Hill Road and Fordham Road was built as part of contract 3. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 18:43:37 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:15:31 2020. The 3rd Ave El was pre dual contracts and connected to nothing. The section between Gun Hill Road and Fordham Road was built as part of contract 3. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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[PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:12:54 2020.   Union Hall St  Parsons Blvd  |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Sep 10 19:20:05 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. Memories! |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Sep 10 20:04:36 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. Sad pictures. That Plaut Brothers faded painted sign on the side of the building by Union Hall and Jamaica is STILL there on Google Street view! |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Sep 10 20:55:15 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. That is utterly pathetic.But it’s a great post. Love the Flxible. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Sep 10 20:56:41 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Sep 10 16:18:12 2020. Is that right? |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Sep 10 20:59:05 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by BILLBKLYN on Thu Sep 10 20:04:36 2020. Whoa |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Sep 10 21:03:45 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:12:54 2020. you didn't fool us for a second. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 10 21:47:23 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. Thank you (seriously) for sharing these crime scene photos! |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by gbs on Thu Sep 10 22:12:36 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. 168 St:       Thanks to nycsubway.org |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Q4 on Thu Sep 10 22:35:08 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Sep 10 21:47:23 2020. Good one. Thanks for bringing back memories. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Sep 10 22:39:57 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 12:17:44 2020. Is there any photos of Dean Street in its last days? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 11 00:12:06 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Sep 10 17:15:31 2020. the store owners felt they could not compete with malls and strip malls.the el created an environment that was undesirable to female shoppers. to this day owners hate the el. in the age of the cell phone, customers would rather shop where calls aren't interrupted by passing trains. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Sep 11 08:16:38 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Sep 10 22:39:57 2020. I don't know. I would suggest trying nycsubway.org. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Sep 11 09:23:32 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. You need to put these photos in books. You can easily have 11 books, each selling for $60 or more. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Sep 11 15:30:08 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 11 00:12:06 2020. Funny, it doesn't seem to bother the shoppers and pedestrians along the #7 Line in Queens! |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 11 16:12:29 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. 😭 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 11 16:18:27 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Sep 11 00:12:06 2020. That's a crock. Jamaica as it was was dead by 1977. Removing the el only made things worse and delayed it's rebound into what it is today. And it cost billions to boot. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 11 16:19:13 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. I remember how sad I was in 1977 to learn these stations would be demolished.I also remember how in the fall of 1978, my Dad had jury duty at Sutphin Boulevard, and he told me that he saw the demolition taking place. He told me that at the time, the Sutphin Boulevard station was still quite intact, but that "the gates are closed". I wasn't sure what he meant by that, but now having seen post-closure pics of the 3rd Avenue and Myrtle Els, I realize he was probably referring to the chain link fencing they installed around the staircases after closure. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 11 20:10:00 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by gbs on Thu Sep 10 22:12:36 2020. "I told you - it's not a SMEE!!":) |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 11 20:12:00 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 11 16:19:13 2020. And ten years later, much of the structure beyond 121st St. was still substantially intact. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Sep 12 03:51:55 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. Sad, should never have happened, but thanks for posting these photos.As others have posted, "memories." |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Sep 12 03:57:17 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Sep 11 15:30:08 2020. Good point! :) |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 12 14:29:26 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 11 16:18:27 2020. It had been dying slowly since South Jamaica declined in the late 1960's. Removing the Jamaica el had nothing to do with it. In fact, it probably stopped the long time shoppers by eliminating the stops at Sutphin Blvd, Parsons Blvd, and 168 St with its shortened re-route under Archer Ave. Not to mention the premature demolition! |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Sep 12 16:10:07 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 11 20:10:00 2020. At that time SMEEs and even Multis had not yet been invented. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Sep 12 16:25:12 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Sep 11 16:18:27 2020. I recall reading about that. The very store owners who complained about the el and wanted it removed were among the first to go out of business when foot traffic declined after the el’s removal. What I never understood it why the el had to be torn down to make the connection to the Archer Ave subway when the ramp could have been added to the existing structure the way it was done at Dimas Av on the Culver or 80 St on the Fulton so that the structure could have remained in service until the subway was ready. I’m sure that some know nothing MTA engineer will probably come up with some BS reason why it couldn’t be done, but won’t buy it! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Sep 12 17:02:19 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 12 16:25:12 2020. those of us who favor rail transit constantly have to defend against the naysayers. In passing,the graffedout cars don't look very inviting. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Sep 12 20:25:47 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 12 16:25:12 2020. They could have done it but it would have been more expensive. It was cheaper and easier to simply chop off a 350 ft section of el so they could make the connection. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 13 09:58:01 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 12 16:25:12 2020. What made no sense was closing the outer portion of the el in 1977, creating a temporary terminal at Queens Blvd, only to close that 8 years later. I know 168th St needed to be rebuilt badly by then, but the whole line could have survived into the mid 80s. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 13 09:59:55 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 12 14:29:26 2020. Indeed, once the el was gone we went to Queens Center. It basically ended decades of traditional trips by people from ENY and Woodhaven to shop in Jamaica. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 13 18:02:58 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by VictorM on Sat Sep 12 20:25:47 2020. I can’t see how it would have been any more expensive to do that there than it was at the other locations I mentioned. It should just have been a matter of splicing the ramp onto the existing structure. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Sep 13 19:32:04 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 13 18:02:58 2020. destruction of other options was deliberate. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Sep 13 22:24:49 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 13 18:02:58 2020. Splicing while keeping existing service running isn't that easy. It could have been done but would have been more expensive. They already had the Q49 shuttle bus running between Queens Blvd station and 168 St for nearly 8 years so they merely extended it 3/4 mile to 121 St. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 14 01:14:38 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by VictorM on Sun Sep 13 22:24:49 2020. If it was that hard, then how come it was done at 177 St West Farms, Ditmas and 80 St. It couldn’t be that hard and with the main structure there for support it probably would have been easier. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Sep 14 01:46:20 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Thu Sep 10 12:17:44 2020. I'm guessing the end of the M-103 bus on 59th Street had that bus essentially replaced by the M-31 York Avenue bus that goes across 57th Street to 11th Avenue and 54th Street. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Sep 14 04:05:27 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 14 01:14:38 2020. If the trains had continued to 168 St with no shuttle bus I could see how a splice would have made sense, but people were used to transferring to the bus at Queens Blvd, so short distance further west to 121 St wasn't that much more of an inconvenience. All the spice would have done would have been to benefit the few people who used the Metropolitan Av and Queens Blvd stations. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Sep 14 09:12:36 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu Sep 10 18:49:40 2020. Oh and BTW during demolition it was impossible to even take a bus to Jamaica to shop. The streets were impassable. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Sep 14 13:17:43 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Sep 10 20:56:41 2020. From what I remember, it was heavily used only in rush hours. As I said, those 4-car trains of R-12's were packed. Mid-day ridership was fairly light. With the South Bronx rapidly declining back then, those night trains must have been pretty scary. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 14 19:53:05 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by VictorM on Mon Sep 14 04:05:27 2020. What I am trying to say is that the trains should have continued ALL THE WAY to 168 St until the exact time the line was cut over! |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 15 12:16:37 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Sep 13 09:59:55 2020. Not to mention the rerouting of some bus services! |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Oct 3 08:57:04 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for September 10, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Sep 11 20:12:00 2020. Until late 1990 when it came down. I actually walked (trespassed) on that structure in 1987. |
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