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| (1552457) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 00:27:59 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Mitch45 on Mon Jul 6 22:28:09 2020. And that’s why Phase 2 isn’t coming for a while.Of course, the IND was built during the Great Depression. But back then politicians came up with more useful ideas than “defund the police.” |
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Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jul 7 01:34:06 2020, in response to Re: Why, New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jul 6 13:19:31 2020. Yet Communist China has no problem building Subways.Might be more to it than "muh socialism" here... ironically part of the issue is property rights. |
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| (1552485) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Jul 7 10:23:59 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jul 6 11:47:21 2020. due to the quarantine, many people have considered the value of having larger homes with private yards and driveways. This might make the upper SAS less useful, but it might make subways to outlying areas more usefulOr increased commuter rail service. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jul 7 10:53:36 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Jul 7 10:23:59 2020. If people can telecommute forever, they don't have to live near public transit. Living near it also makes its value and property taxes higher. |
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| (1552490) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by rockparklocal on Tue Jul 7 11:23:02 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Joe V on Tue Jul 7 10:53:36 2020. Why not just continue the Q on 2nd ave to 125th only and forget the stations in between. It would save money. |
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| (1552498) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Jul 7 13:33:23 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by rockparklocal on Tue Jul 7 11:23:02 2020. That would be a very long stetch between stations, pretty much unprecedented for Manhattan. |
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| (1552519) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jul 7 17:22:05 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 00:27:59 2020. One of the things you have to remember about the benefits NY received during the depression is that FDR was a NYer and NY voted overwhelmingly for him. As is the case in many Presidential elections, the part of the country that the President comes from often benefits from Federal funds and other projects. That is why many parts of the IND subway during the 1930s were built with WPA or PWA (or whatever alphabet soup agency was responsible for it) funds. In the case of Trump even though he is a native NYer, since NY went solidly for his opponent, there is no way that he is going to help the opposition. |
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| (1552527) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 7 18:15:37 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by randyo on Tue Jul 7 17:22:05 2020. not to mention general GOP disdain for public transit and those who use it. |
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| (1552531) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jul 7 18:30:57 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 00:27:59 2020. I can't believe I'm going to defend Dem politicians here but... they aren't the ones that came up with "defund the police."Activists did (with their express intention of reducing police funding to $0) and some Dems decided to co-opt the message and launder it into something useful to them as city and state budgets get slammed hard. They were panicking about what programs to cut and suddenly a gift horse galloped in. |
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| (1552533) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jul 7 18:35:31 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Jul 7 10:23:59 2020. I think this is much more likely. That LIRR 3rd track will be immensely useful once we're back to normal.Depending on how badly the NYC population and local commuting patterns are hit, we may see revival for that plan to turn the Montague into a LIRR tunnel to create a lower Manhattan terminal. |
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| (1552534) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jul 7 18:37:44 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Jul 7 13:33:23 2020. The 116th station was added in late anyway due to community complaints... which is unfortunate as there is already a cut and cover tunnel section there that could have been reused. They could re-delete it from the plans and just have 106th and 125th. |
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| (1552535) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jul 7 18:47:50 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jul 7 18:30:57 2020. suddenly a gift horse galloped inThey're going to have to cut everything by 20%, not just police. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jul 7 18:49:24 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jul 7 18:37:44 2020. With the grandiose stations they are building on the SAS, the tunneling isn't actually the expensive part. |
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| (1552540) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 7 19:09:40 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by AlM on Tue Jul 7 18:49:24 2020. maybe, just maybe, the money squeeze will force them to do less wasteful stations. I reiterate my view that shallow cut and cover wall platform styleis the easy and cheaper version. |
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| (1552553) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 21:09:00 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 7 19:09:40 2020. I disagree. If it were, they would have built them that way in the first place. Cut and cover is way more disruptive. That’s a cost too. |
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| (1552555) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 21:10:11 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 7 18:15:37 2020. And Trump Party disdain for urban areas and the people who live therein. |
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| (1552556) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 21:10:11 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 7 18:15:37 2020. And Trump Party disdain for urban areas and the people who live therein. |
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| (1552557) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 21:11:17 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jul 7 18:30:57 2020. My point stands. It’s still an “idea” that politicians are parroting. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 01:42:26 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 7 21:09:00 2020. We will just disagree, then. I don't buy the claim of greater cost when the total work is vastly less. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 8 06:44:46 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jul 7 18:15:37 2020. Trump threatened to shut down the government if Congress funded Gateway. They instead buried $550 million into Amtrak's account so that Elaine Chao couldn't touch it. That's why Amtrak's "subsidy" became about $2 billion, not the usual $1.4 Billion. |
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| (1552579) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 8 06:58:27 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 01:42:26 2020. Because the street isn’t ripped up and closed to pedestrians and cars with the associated disruptions to residents and businesses. |
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| (1552580) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 8 07:45:50 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 8 06:58:27 2020. TBM's are not cheap. |
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| (1552594) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 8 09:58:27 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 8 07:45:50 2020. Cut and cover is not cheap. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 14:19:56 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 8 09:58:27 2020. Think about the time from arriving at the time clock ar street level to arriving several stories below street level for every worker, every delivery of material, inspector, tools, not to mention managers. Then add the time wasted returning to surface, hoisting out spoils, etc. Then compare to essentially a single story walk down to a "basement" because that is how the IRT is below Park Ave. Then add up the extra costs both labor and materials for multiple escalators to the deep stations. Even if somehow it were cheaper to hard rock drill tunnels hundreds of feet below the surface, the electricity alone to run ventilation, sump pumps, lighting, escalators, elevators lighting for a massively larger cubic space for decades. How is that cheaper? |
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| (1552617) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 8 16:20:15 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 14:19:56 2020. Because you’re ignoring the costs of the disruption caused by the cut and cover construction itself. |
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| (1552619) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 16:44:28 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 8 16:20:15 2020. so if you do 2-3 blocks at a time, that is far worse than a several block entry, excavation extraction supplies delivery,etc artea. Seems to me it is still less net pain because the job should go faster.My cynical view is that "excluding" as many costs as possible from any calculation is SOP in the US. |
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| (1552622) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jul 8 17:02:40 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 14:19:56 2020. Utilities (gas water steam teldata)that may require support or relocation, underground streams, geology soil type or rock type) structure of buildings along a route, sewers, and other transit routes all influence what method is used. Lots of stuff in play |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 18:23:51 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jul 8 17:02:40 2020. indeed so. I still maintain that shallowtrenches are faster and cheaper thandeep bored tunnels, and the huge expense of deep stations exacerbates not only the initial costs but the annual operational costs. Finally, a single flight down station 9First Subway, Dual Contracts in many segments give the ridera quicker trips sidewalk to sidewalk. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jul 8 18:44:13 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 18:23:51 2020. Shallow cut and cover, where available and practical is generally less expensive, particularly when done in an era when less was in the way, and less consideration was necessary for closing major sections of road, or dealing with huge building foundations. |
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| (1552706) | |
Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 9 20:29:18 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jul 8 17:02:40 2020. The "deep bore" was only a way to drive up cost.Honestly, the SAS did not have to cost so much,if tried and true methods were retained. The MTA knew that, the 10 year construction of just 3 stations, rebuilding a 4th..5 billion dollars? The Entire 1970s SAS was a third of that,with the Queens Bypass tossed in,With the Archer subway to South Jamaica! Deliberate cost overruns,over design, Done to impress, not improve. The 106th St. Station SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUILT, THERE WAS MORE THAN ENOUGH MONEY TO DO IT. YET...Well, it is what it is. The problem here is the MTA is the Only game in town, which is unfair and unfortunate to the rest of the city. We need another agency capable of Subway building, Apart from the MTA network. We need a LIGHT RAIL DIVISION,instead of SBS Bullshit. We need a system that is not connected to pulling every penny from our pockets at every turn without giving anything in return. SERVICE cuts..after cuts...and We are supposed to be grateful that they don't cut more? 😑? |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 9 20:33:23 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 8 16:20:15 2020. Crap.The SAS did MoRE damage with LESS CuT and COVER. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by pragmatist on Thu Jul 9 20:34:54 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 9 20:29:18 2020. 106th yes, but to me the biggest mistake was omitting 42nd and 10th on the 7 line extension. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 9 20:45:48 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 14:19:56 2020. NOTHING about the SAS program was done CHEAP.It was PURPOSELY designed to extract the Maximum amount of money from the City/State and Federal government. It was a disgusting experience to watch, as the MTA witted down a wonderful masterpiece of underground art,and turn it into the Washington Metro Part 2. They forgot the Metro actually went somewhere, not 3 stations further Uptown. Honestly, New York took a Royal Asskicking behind the SAS. To think, We paid for this line SEVERAL TIMES ALREADY, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS BLOWING IN THE EITHER..for Three OVER BUILT stations, ONE Finally FINISHED station...and a little more than a mile of New Track? Who feeling ripped off by MTA and the City? |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Jul 9 20:54:36 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 9 20:45:48 2020. Metropolitan Transportation Authorities suck! Both of them (NY and LA) (AFAIK, all the other MTAs, the T is for Transit) |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jul 9 21:08:20 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by pragmatist on Thu Jul 9 20:34:54 2020. In my twistedview, ever since huge Federal grants (which were necessary because the private sector had learned not to invest--think CRT, CSL, IRT, BMT,and every other US transit outfit) became involved, the project morphed into massive patronage prizes for connected contractors/vendors. BART was the pioneer. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jul 9 21:11:44 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Jul 9 20:54:36 2020. The whole business is patternedafter DoD contracts. Insiders get the bids, huge cost overruns are incurred, and the public gets crap. Please support the kickstarting fund for more rosin for the violinists. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Jul 9 21:25:31 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by pragmatist on Thu Jul 9 20:34:54 2020. Absolutely.That "extension" was the hinge. 2.5 PLUS BILLION DOLLARS for a One stop extension. A designed As Is STANDARD station program, that was cut out because they RAN Out Of MONEY? Who bought that excuse? Oh,and if You want that station,Today it's gonna cost about 500 million. You hear Me? 500 million MORE dollars to place something that SHOULD have been built already. Maybe if they used One TBM instead of Two,(you know like they did with the SAS),you Might have a station at 10th. However, what these guys did is the same thing the city did before with the SAS...bait and swith,to get more funding. Except, THIS TIME, there was no Federal money. All Bonds paid for the 7 line. Nobody to fleece Again, so No 10th Avenue Subway station.. Unless the city builds it's out of it own pocket. You Don't hear of them talking about it now, do you? |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Thu Jul 9 23:04:25 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 8 18:23:51 2020. D-m straight. And in the event of, oh, a flood or a bomb, I'd rather be a flight of stairs down than a 60-foot elevator ride up. In even a mild disaster,the elevators would become death chambers.However I'd make one small change: 3-6 feet of ground cover over the subway roof. That provides a little bit of insulation and leaves room to run utilities without jamming stuff tight. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Thu Jul 9 23:12:56 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jul 9 21:08:20 2020. There's nothing twisted about your observation. Distant money (Feds) is considered free money and free money gets wasted. Give your kids an allowance for nothing - no homework checkup, no stay outta trouble, no be home on time, just give it to them. After one year check what they have to show for that allowance. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 01:07:06 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Steamdriven on Thu Jul 9 23:04:25 2020. Ican live w/ 3-6 ft. Your point about escape is welltaken. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 01:09:09 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Steamdriven on Thu Jul 9 23:12:56 2020. shows you didn't train them well. My allowancewas mine to spend, and my newspaper route the same. model trains,and later photography. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 10 03:50:36 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 01:09:09 2020. What kind of model trains? |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 05:00:48 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 10 03:50:36 2020. funny you ask,as I have been puttering withthem this very evening. As a toddler windup,by age 7 or so Lionel, around 13, changed to HO. Still there. Among current projects, I am going to build a 6x10 setup for two neighbor kids. Simple ovals, w/ crossovers and a couple of sidings. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 10 05:34:11 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 05:00:48 2020. Sounds exciting.My grandfather loved putting together the TYCO model sets. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Fri Jul 10 17:56:21 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 01:09:09 2020. Hm. Eye gots no kids, I just used lazy parenting as an example. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jul 10 22:15:25 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by pragmatist on Thu Jul 9 20:34:54 2020. Here, here. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jul 10 22:16:29 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 05:00:48 2020. I'm an American Flyer S gauger myself. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 22:23:27 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jul 10 22:16:29 2020. room for all in the hobby. There is some crazy 1/4 inch NG that runs on HO standard guage track. takes all kinds. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Jul 10 23:37:06 2020, in response to Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jul 10 05:00:48 2020. I planning on model railroading as a hobby once I retire in a few years. Already have a shitload of cars and track (had to put most in storage for now). Using Bachmann EZ-Track. |
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Re: Why New York City will never build another subway station |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Jul 11 00:49:19 2020, in response to Why New York City will never build another subway station, posted by ROCKAWAYNY2016 on Sun Jul 5 12:46:22 2020. The MTA should wait a year or so to see if ridership levels return to what they were pre Covid-19 before committing themselves to any future expansion. If, for example, only 50% of riders return, it would hardly justify any new construction. |
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