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| BMT Canarsie Line history question. (1547940) | |
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| (1547940) | |
BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Dan on Tue May 19 14:02:41 2020 Was there ever a Canarsie <--> Park Row service? |
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| (1547949) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 14:33:24 2020, in response to BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Dan on Tue May 19 14:02:41 2020. It's possible, but I believe it always used Broadway-Brooklyn. Good question. |
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| (1547950) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 14:33:29 2020, in response to BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Dan on Tue May 19 14:02:41 2020. It's possible, but I believe it always used Broadway-Brooklyn. Good question. |
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| (1547955) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 14:56:37 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 14:33:24 2020. No. The Canarsie line was always routed on the Broadway-Brooklyn. After the BRT takeover of the B&RB, trains first went to B'way Ferry, then later over the Williamsburg Bridge. The only possible routing to Park Row would have to have been via the Lexington Line, but that line first ran to Cypress Hills, and later to Grant Ave on the Fulton line. So, there was never a Lex-Canarsie line. |
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| (1547957) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 15:00:25 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 14:56:37 2020. I believe you're right that it didn't go to Park Row, but it was certainly possible, both before and after the Dual Contracts, via the Fulton Street Line. |
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| (1547960) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue May 19 15:06:39 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 14:56:37 2020. Couldn't Canarsie trains be routed down the Fulton St line at B'way Jct? (assuming there was enough lightweight equiptment around for enough service that is) |
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| (1547961) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 15:13:31 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 14:33:29 2020. A lot of rigidity with BRT/BMT. There would never be a Culver - Broadway service via Bridge or Tunnel. They didn't rate. |
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| (1547963) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 15:26:39 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue May 19 15:06:39 2020. Well, the BMT did get the Multis in 1936. Despite their inaugural trip over Fulton St to Park Row, and back, they were never again used on the Fulton St el, west of Atlantic Ave. I suppose that earlier gate cars and "C" cars could have made the trip to Canarsie, from Fulton St. This all goes back to its predecessor, the BRT, which established holding companies to operate its early acquisitions. |
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| (1547965) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 15:28:11 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 15:00:25 2020. Or, via the Lexington elevated. |
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| (1547969) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 15:32:02 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue May 19 15:06:39 2020. Canarsie trains originally used el cars. |
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| (1547970) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 15:34:57 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 15:13:31 2020. Culver was a busy elevated line, via 5th Avenue to Park Row. Those who wanted Broadway service transferred to the West End at 9th Avenue and v.v. |
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| (1547971) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 15:35:53 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 15:28:11 2020. Yes, but definitely the slower route. |
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| (1547974) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 15:56:13 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 15:32:02 2020. Yes, but the post-1900 BRT used el cars with "CRRCo" stencils and kept them there for a number of years. Same with their acquisition of the Kings County Elevated, which carried "KCERR' stencils on it. You also saw "TDCo" stenciling, for Transit Development co, on other routes. |
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| (1547975) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 15:59:43 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 15:34:57 2020. When converted to IND, Culver access to lower Manhattan became difficult. Broadway-Nassau station on the IND is not Wall Street. |
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| (1547976) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 16:13:32 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 15:56:13 2020. So what? They were never BRT cars per se, BRT was a holding company. Those roads still existed as leased lines, until they formed the New York Consolidated Railroad in 1912. You can see cars with NYCRR stenciled on them. |
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| (1547977) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 16:15:14 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 15:59:43 2020. Yes, the City's mania to acquire the Culver Line was so the IND could reach Coney Island, not so passengers could go where they want to go. |
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| (1547980) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue May 19 16:28:08 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 16:15:14 2020. That’s the reason why the D was the service sent to CI rather than the F which had previously terminated at Church Ave. The TA wanted a one seat ride to CI for passengers from the Bx and uptown Manhattan which wasn’t possible with the F. After Chrystie, with the B from uptown Manhattan and the D from the Bx going to CI from uptown Manhattan and the Bx, the F was restored to the Smith St Line and extended via the Culver. |
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| (1547984) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue May 19 16:55:38 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Tue May 19 16:28:08 2020. That’s the reason why the D was the service sent to CI rather than the F which had previously terminated at Church Ave. The TA wanted a one seat ride to CI for passengers from the Bx and uptown Manhattan which wasn’t possible with the F.The F was operating 660 ft 11-car trains at the time. The Culver Platforms were extended to only 600 feet. |
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| (1547985) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue May 19 16:56:45 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 15:59:43 2020. Joe V on Tue May 19 15:59:43 2020 said:When converted to IND, Culver access to lower Manhattan became difficult. Broadway-Nassau station on the IND is not Wall Street. ------------ I realize that you're talking about the period BEFORE the subways became consolidated with transfer stations. Was it a "planned happy accident" for the Delancey Street and Essex Street subway stations - and the creation of the "then possible future transfer station." On one hand this station provides the direct access to Wall Street, but on the other hand the IND Second Avenue was supposed to "do away" with as much of the BRT/BMT as possible - especially the elevated segments. Just wondering. Mike |
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| (1547986) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 19 17:59:59 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Michael549 on Tue May 19 16:56:45 2020. Few perceived Delancey/Essex as a valid transfer point for accessing Wall Street from the D/F. |
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| (1547988) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 18:08:24 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 19 17:59:59 2020. They left the Culver Shuttle in place. I forgot as to whether any of its trains ran beyond 9th Avenue once the IND took over McDonald Ave. Otherwise, a transfer to the TT required. Double transfer from McDonald Av to Nassau Street or Trinity Place routing.The IND/BMT Montague tunnel transfer at Boro Hall was 50+ years in the future, and then no Nassau Street service. |
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| (1547999) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 19:50:30 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 18:08:24 2020. They continued to run Culver-Nassau service for 4-1/2 years to 5/28/59, Expresses rush hour via Nassau Loop southward. Locals midday via tunnel to Chambers Street. 36th-Dimas other times. |
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| (1548005) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by zac on Tue May 19 22:36:55 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Joe V on Tue May 19 18:08:24 2020. Plus you had to go down, under and back up to make the transfer going towards Manhattan at Ditmas. Nope, no thanks. |
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| (1548019) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 20 02:34:42 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue May 19 16:55:38 2020. It wouldn’t have made any difference since at that time trains operated with 2 C/Rs so the rear guard could have merely kept the last car closed when operating on the Culver. |
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| (1548020) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 20 02:37:23 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 19:50:30 2020. After the Culver was made a full time Ditmas to 9 Av shuttle, the TA changed the service pattern so that middays, Southern Div Nassau service was provided by the West End Lcls. |
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| (1548027) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed May 20 08:48:29 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Tue May 19 19:50:30 2020. Thanks; I didn't realize that not all 9th Ave - Ditmas Ave trains were shuttles after 1954. |
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| (1548028) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 20 09:45:00 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Wed May 20 02:37:23 2020. After the Culver was made a full time Ditmas to 9 Av shuttle, the TA changed the service pattern so that middays, Southern Div Nassau service was provided by the West End Lcls.Well, yes, but in case anyone thinks that was a replacement, you have to realize that they ended the midday Broadway-West End at the same time. IOW, they re-routed the midday service on West End, they didn't ADD a West End Local to a West End Express midday. |
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| (1548032) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by zac on Wed May 20 10:14:15 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 20 09:45:00 2020. Mid day passenger traffic is pretty light, back then and even now. I'm always surprised about how light it is now that I've retired. The mid day West End express was probably considered superfluous. But then, midday ridership to Nassau St was almost nonexistent. It was just an easy way to short turn the West End service. |
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| (1548033) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by zac on Wed May 20 10:18:51 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed May 20 08:48:29 2020. If you go to NYCSubway.org and look at the 1959 maps, you can see that the Culver was still shown as going through to Manhattan. But if you look at the route information all it says for Culver under the BMT service is "All Times" and "Ditmas Av" with no north terminal specified. Even the mapmakers didn't know what the TA was doing there. |
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| (1548040) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 13:46:46 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Michael549 on Tue May 19 16:56:45 2020. When was the Delancey/Essex transfer opened? |
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| (1548065) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 20 18:13:31 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 13:46:46 2020. When was the Delancey/Essex transfer opened? July 1, 1948 Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1548085) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 23:03:52 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 20 18:13:31 2020. Thanks, cousin!!! |
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| (1548103) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu May 21 01:36:24 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 15:26:39 2020. re: This all goes back to its predecessor, the BRT, which established holding companies to operate its early acquisitions.I don't have a background in finance/ corporation management. I didn't realize what you wrote above; that BRT holding companies would operate its early acquisitions. I always thought that these holding companies were just smaller private ones that the BRT swallowed up/ absorbed during the late 19th, early 20th centuries. Any further explanation is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. |
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| (1548131) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 12:21:28 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Thu May 21 01:36:24 2020. The BRT was a holding company that held the leases to the actual companies that it absorbed. Although the BRT was the public face of its system, the actual operation was down by subsidiary companies like Brooklyn Union Elevated, Brooklyn Heights Railroad, Nassau Electric, Brooklyn City Railroad, etc., etc.Likewise the BMT, which formed the New York Rapid Transit Corporation to actually run its rapid transit lines and Brooklyn & Queens Transit to run its buses. It's very tangled and leaseholds and such changed at different times but, for the public, it was the BRT and BMT (most of the time). |
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| (1548139) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 21 13:55:46 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 12:21:28 2020. There have been references to the NY Municipal Railway Corp as the holding company for the BRT and at one time there were station signs along the Flushing and Astoria lines indicating trains of the NY Municipal Railway. |
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| (1548140) | |
Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 14:04:10 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Thu May 21 13:55:46 2020. In the 1950s, my aunt & uncle moved to the Seaview Houses on Rockaway Pkwy. I have vague recollections of a trolly terminal across the street from the Carnarsie BMT terminal. Can anyone confirm this, with a possible photograph? |
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| (1548141) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 14:15:23 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Thu May 21 13:55:46 2020. New York Municipal Railway was the BRT subsidiary formed to execute the terms of Contract 4. It was the subway equivalent of the New York Consolidated Railroad, which oversaw the elevated operations. |
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| (1548142) | |
Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 14:16:47 2020, in response to Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 14:04:10 2020. The trolley terminal adjacent to the station is still there as a bus terminal for the B42, but looks somewhat different. |
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| (1548148) | |
[PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 14:50:13 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Thu May 21 13:55:46 2020. 
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| (1548149) | |
Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 14:56:49 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 14:16:47 2020. What I was referring to was a structure on the opposite side of Rockaway Parkway where the tracks went into the building. |
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| (1548150) | |
[PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 14:58:54 2020, in response to Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 14:04:10 2020. This is the Canarsie trolley terminal, long before your time. If you look through the structure, you'll see the "L" car platform. 
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| (1548156) | |
Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 15:36:25 2020, in response to [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 14:58:54 2020. thank you |
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| (1548158) | |
Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 21 15:42:47 2020, in response to [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 14:58:54 2020. Where was this exactly? |
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| (1548160) | |
Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Thu May 21 15:56:51 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTO] Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 21 15:42:47 2020. where the belt p`way is today |
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| (1548166) | |
Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 16:05:47 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 14:56:49 2020. The opposite side of Rockaway Parkway? Across from the station? |
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| (1548167) | |
Re: [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 16:09:31 2020, in response to [PHOTO] Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 14:50:13 2020. Culver had similar; |
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| (1548168) | |
Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 16:21:41 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Thu May 21 16:05:47 2020. The opposite side of Rockaway Parkway? Across from the station?I would guess any trolley terminal would be next to the 14th St subway terminal. Was there a trolley station across Rockaway Pkwy that we don't know of ? Bill Newkirk |
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| (1548169) | |
Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu May 21 16:23:05 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 21 16:21:41 2020. Maybe it was a maintenance building? |
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| (1548170) | |
Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu May 21 16:44:12 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Train Dude on Thu May 21 14:56:49 2020. The old New Lots car barn, maybe? |
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| (1548171) | |
Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu May 21 17:10:35 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 19 15:28:11 2020. Transit was much more comprehensive in those days. |
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