|
|
| Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) (1536749) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
[1 2] |
||
|
Page 2 of 2 |
||
|
| (1537207) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 3 11:47:15 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 16:17:25 2020. Joe, I did try to find out where the BMT gate and Q cars were put onto the (now) Flushing line, before I posted the question. I do appreciate what you have written here, believe me. Thank you for your answers! |
|
|
| (1537215) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Feb 3 14:21:41 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 3 11:47:15 2020. Hello El KeeperIt seems that short lived transfer move may be lost to history. If, and likely there was, written (even photo) moves-documentation of that move were made by either the BMT, IRT and/or the LIRR, it was likely long ago purged during the mid 1960's when a room at the long ago NYCTA HQ 370- Jay Street as well as at the old IRT W.148th St Shop offices - containing EVERYTHING relevant to the OLD BRT, BMT and IRT, and by then demolished BRT & IRT 1880's era EL's, was disgracefully removed from storage there and dumped in flat cars in a work train to be taken to Coney Island yards area to be dumped and burned. ANYTHING relevant to no longer existing old IRT, BMT, NYCTA structures, rolling stock, EL's, etc., was discarded. Some lucky railfans were given inside info via Hugh Dunne of the location and access to get in there quickly and take what we could. A number of ERA members were there -- and yes, I got some goodies...but a one shot deal - all you could grab and carry (in bags, boxes,) quickly -- and out. One thing I got was a stapled set of excellent sharp blueprints of the Manhattan 3rd Ave El structures, tracks, feeders and 3rd rails, from South Ferry to Chatham Sq., along Pearl Street. Pages stretched 2 1/2 feet long containing about 8 pages! And photos. A large set of 5x7 B&W Photos by likely an NYCTS staff photog who walked the abandoned tracks of the Fulton EL shooting photos of the abandoned original Fulton EL Sands St Stub Terminal, and of the mainline as it passed lower on Fulton St to the Ferry. And of the Myrtle EL Upper Level Loop at the main Sands Street terminal. These were likely pre-demolition photos. I still have that stuff and others, today. What the few of us got was like a few grains of sand on the beach of a tremendous volume of even back then historic materials that filled a number of flat (with sides) cars --- all gone and burned. I also have tried extensively over the past many years (via the net) to find visual data on the BMT EL cars moved to IRT issue - and gave up. Found nothing. The 3 options I provided - WHICHEVER one, would be the only logical via-rails way to have done the transfer. Regards - Joe F |
|
|
| (1537229) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 3 16:56:56 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Feb 3 14:21:41 2020. Thank you for your efforts! Guess we'll keep on trying! |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1537244) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Handbrake on Mon Feb 3 20:42:17 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Jan 31 09:30:53 2020. A 1924 Aerial photo map of NYC shows the Flushing Line Elevated structure under construction north of 103rdh Street, with the skeletal steel trackways visible in the vicinity of the 111th Street station. The area where Corona Yard is today is shown as marsh area, with no buildings or other physical work having been done. The LIRR Port Washington line is clearly shown adjacent to the future Corona Yard facility, along with the Junction to the LIRR Whitestone Branch. Link to NYC GIIS Map is below. Drill down using the default street grid, then switch to the aerial photo year of choice. The 1951 photo year is has pretty bad detail, with the 1924 version being much better. http://gis.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/ |
|
|
| (1537245) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Handbrake on Mon Feb 3 20:48:42 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 28 00:45:14 2020. Looking south at the intersection of 31st street & Newtown Road. To the right corner is where The Max Finkelstein Goodyear Tire store is located. Google Map and street view 28-40 31st St, Astoria, NY 11102, looking from the corner of Newtown Road & 31st Street. |
|
|
| (1537252) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Mon Feb 3 22:19:24 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Handbrake on Mon Feb 3 20:42:17 2020. Did the Hunters Point IRT connection to the Sunnyside Yards still exist at the time BMT Queens service started? Could that have been the transfer point from the LIRR? |
|
|
| (1537255) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Feb 3 23:21:11 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Handbrake on Mon Feb 3 20:42:17 2020. Hello HandbrakeVERY INTERESTING & INFORMATIVE !! This has raised some interesting questions - and may provide an obvious answer to disprove ONE of the delivery possibilities !! I have a number of photos dated 1927 to early 1928 showing the IRT Corona Yard and Shops being built and some of the then steel skeleton for the 2 track very long descending ramp to the IRT subway yards and shops under construction. Even a photo of a Composite car that accidentally rolled off the end of one of the uncompleted yard track leads on the skeleton ramp. And fell off the structure to the ground below. Lying on its side wrecked and collapsed. Dated in 1927 ! I just located those photos and checked them out carefully. NOTE: (**) Its long and well documented that were various plans between the PSC and LIRR & IRT between 1914 and 1924 for the IRT to take over the LIRR Port Jefferson Branch and make a connection from the IRT's Corona line (which then terminated at 103rd St Station) to the LIRR to run to Bayside and further. From what I read on this long span and lengthy, involved legal story - the IRT by 1928 finally dropped the whole plan completely. By then the IRT's Main St Flushing terminal from the EL had been completed. From what the 1924 aerial map and views you mentioned related, there now seems to be NO WAY AT ALL the IRT could have had a track connection at their future Corona Yard area -- because that Yard and Facility did NOT yet exist UNTIL 1927-28. Nor did the ramp from the El down to the planned yards. Therefore, NO BMT EL CAR DELIVERIES via that method possible !!!! FIVE YEARS AFTER the BMT Gate cars already were in shuttle service from April 1923 on the IRT Flushing & Astoria Lines lines. !!!! I now wonder if the 1915 created LI City "temporary" one track short connection between the LIRR LI City Sunnyside / Vernon Av. Yards and the IRT continued intact and kept open between 1915 and 1923-24. Perhaps with a removable fence to close the concrete wall opening where the single connective track was. And used for BMT EL Car deliveries as such !! Make more sense ! As we know and Steve (T Rat) mentioned -- there was a small IRT inspection shop on that site for IRT car maintenance for some time. After all, WHERE would the new Steinway subway cars be shopped BEFORE the Corona Yards and Shops opened in 1928 !! Perhaps via the 2nd Ave El (over the Q Boro Bridge) to the 2nd & 3rd Ave EL E.129th Street Shops and/or 3rd Ave El E. 99th Street main shops. As the IRT EL cars were done at that time. >>> THEREFORE - I NOW TEND TO BELIEVE -- in respect to all above - and in more logical sense based on all above - that the BMT EL Gate cars may have possibly been delivered via the LIRR "Long Island City Yards" to IRT at that well known and documented single track connection. And perhaps, more likely, my 1960 source (and his pal) were incorrect and possibly a bit confused in their "time frames" between the 5 year space of 1923 (the actual BMT deliveries) and 1928 (the actual Corona Yard opening parallel along the LIRR line)- they perhaps recalling (**) the 1914 thru 1928 PSC - IRT - LIRR ongoing plans I mentioned above about a planned IRT Corona EL to LIRR "revenue line" track connection and IRT Bayside route extension (NEVER built as facts tell us) This is long enough by now (heh - history some times is never always easy and simple) - and I will close here. And take back the LIRR to IRT Corona Yards track LINK possibility as an unfortunate error of a decades ago source .... for the sake of history accuracy !! THANK YOU for this very useful new info and new insights in"the history chain" .. and we are on our way to possibly solving this historical issue ! Regards - Joe F |
|
|
| (1537265) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 4 03:13:18 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Feb 3 23:21:11 2020. And thank you, as always, for sharing your background and knowledge about these developments! |
|
|
| (1537268) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 05:55:05 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 4 03:13:18 2020. Hello Express Rider (and others)Thanks for the support. I just uncovered more interesting info - history - I will share below; I came across this 1960 quite much more informative written info from the late NY transit historian and author David Rogoff -- I will repeat it exactly - with some of my added notes, comments placed in ( -- ) =================================================================== " ..When the line (IRT Steinway subway) first opened, and the cars (IRT Steinways) were new, only minor inspection repairs were necessary, and this was done on the operating trackage at Jackson Avenue. As the mileage of the cars increased and more thorough maintenance was required, this became impractical. And so, in 1917, a single track inspection shed was put up alongside the ramp beneath 49th Avenue on Pennsylvania Railroad Property. A trailing point crossover was installed on the ramp -- (of the IRT Flushing line as it exited its LIC Tunnel) -- between the two tracks, and a trailing turnout switch from the Queens bound ramp track led into the shed, and beyond into the Long Island Railroad tracks. It is believed that this track was used for the new car deliveries in 1915, 1916 and 1925. For a complete overhaul, the (Steinway) cars were taken over the Queensboro Bridge trackage of the IRT 2nd Avenue Elevated line which reached Queensboro Plaza Station in 1917. And thus to the main shops of the IRT at W. 147th Street Yards - via connecting trackage in Manhattan and the Bronx. In 1928 the temporary inspection shed was closed and the track into it -- (from the IRT main) -- was removed on April 6th (**) in favor of the new permanent type of installation at Corona (Yards & Shops) on the IRT line to Flushing, which was opened. ( NOTE: (**) and at that time the opening which was provided in the concrete side south wall along the Queens bound IRT ramp track was finally closed up and a new concrete wall installed to match the existing concrete earlier built wall on either end of the opening.) In (June) 1942, when the 2nd Ave EL service was discontinued, the major overhaul for the Steinway cars was transferred to the Coney Island Shops of the then newly "BMT Division" -- (of the then new NYC Transit System) -- as they are presently done.........." (as of the 1960 writing time frame) =================================================================== Well, while there is no mention about BMT EL cars delivered in 1923 at that connection, the IRT to LIRR track connection itself existed fully intact and in regular use from 1915 up thru 1928 - still attached to the LIRR (and PRR) yard tracks, and their connected mains. So, it becomes more obvious that the BMT EL cars may in fact have been delivered via same, just as the new Steinways were. Regards - Joe F |
|
|
| (1537270) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Feb 4 08:51:51 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Feb 3 23:21:11 2020. That's what I said... |
|
|
| (1537275) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 4 12:37:08 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Feb 3 23:21:11 2020. joe I,m you mean the port WASHINGTON branch,not port Jefferson. |
|
|
| (1537279) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 4 13:15:04 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 05:55:05 2020. Thank you, Joe! I have always believed that the 1922-23 gate cars had never been towed through the BMT Broadway subway. Maybe this is what Tunnelrat meant when he mentioned Hunterspoint! |
|
|
| (1537281) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 13:34:56 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 4 12:37:08 2020. Hello SteveYEP - you are correct !! -- Port WASHINGTON LIRR branch -- another !@#$%^&*(!@#$ typo -- likely "subliminal" because I at times visited a pal in Port Jefferson back in the late 1980's (he died last year in his late 80's) and I had that on my mind. Well, that's what happens at times when you get over, 30 ! I WISH this S/C site had a format to go back and edit, correct, posts, AFTER they are posted. The lack of such was always a P I T A ! regards - Joe F |
|
|
| (1537283) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 4 14:19:36 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 13:34:56 2020. here`s a question no body thought to ask:how did they get the gate`s-n-Q-cars BACK to the BMT? there has got to be documention[I hope] on this. |
|
|
| (1537288) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 15:40:14 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 4 14:19:36 2020. Hello SteveDo we DARE suggest (again !) that - perhaps -- At THAT time around end of 1949, -- a temporary single short track connection was made (as per my aerial image graphics on my earliest message here) between the IRT Corona Yard long straight Lead Track and the extremely close and south parallel westbound LIRR equally straight track at the location of the LIRR Port Washington Branch at what was the Willets Point LIRR Station ? Otherwise, - who the heck knows for sure. WHY wasn't that 1949 (BMT Q's from Flushing Line over to IRT 3rd Ave EL) move (and the 1923 move) ever actually print and photo documented by whatever rail historians were active back then. Also, how did those NON-1200 & 1400 series BMT EL gate cars (those not converted to Q types in 1939) get off the Flushing line (ie: back to Brooklyn or scrapping, whatever) after the 2nd Ave El closed in 1942 -- and the LI City LIRR/PRR to IRT one track connection was removed by 1928 ??!! Regards - Joe F |
|
|
| (1537289) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 15:47:06 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 4 14:19:36 2020. Hello SteveDo I / we DARE to suggest (again !) that - perhaps - At THAT time around end of 1949, -- a temporary single short (and short lived) track connection was made (as per my aerial image graphics on my earliest message here) between the IRT Corona Yard long straight Lead Track and the extremely very close and south parallel westbound LIRR equally straight track at the location of the LIRR Port Washington Branch at what was the Willets Point LIRR Station ? Otherwise, - who the heck knows for sure. WHY wasn't that 1949 move (BMT Q's from Flushing Line over to IRT 3rd Ave EL) (and earlier, the 1923 move) ever actually print and photo documented by whatever rail historians were active back then. Also, how did those NON-1200 & 1400 series BMT EL gate cars (ANY BMT EL Gate cars not converted to Q types in 1939) get off the Flushing line (ie: back to Brooklyn or scrapping, whatever) after the 2nd Ave El closed in 1942 -- and the LI City LIRR/PRR to IRT one track connection was removed by 1928 ??!! Regards - Joe F |
|
|
| (1537306) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 4 18:37:56 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Feb 4 14:19:36 2020. As I mentioned in another post on this topic, since at the time the BMT Bway and 4 Av subways were designed, wooden el cars had not yet been banned from subways by the PSC so it’s extremely likely that all the BMT subway lines being built at the time would have been able to clear the el cars as well as the subway cars. |
|
|
| (1537311) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 19:06:32 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 15:47:06 2020. DON'T KNOW WHY my previous message posted 2 times -- I only hit the POST Button ONCE !!For those few still interested -- here is the Feb. 1960 drawn track map and details for the Long Island City, IRT Flushing Line - to - LIRR / PRR, single track connection that lasted from 1915 thru 1928 -- and some other details such as the close by two IRT Subway stations on the line. CLICK THUMBNAIL IMAGE for LARGER image  BELOW is a 1915 photo looking outbound (easterly) during the construction of the IRT 2 track ramps up from the twin tunnel portals in L.I. City, towards the still under construction start of the EL trestle. Also seen is the north side concrete wall opening at left (*) along the LIRR Yard tracks where perhaps a temporary connection track was located also to deliver the first Steinway cars in 1915. Looks like that wall opening is being closed up. At right is the south side wall opening where the PRR Yard tracks are. The track to the immediate right is what was, by a short track and switches to the IRT outbound track, connected to the IRT Inspection Shed built, and located, to the west just off the right edge of the photo. The 2nd "descending" track at right is one of the PRR tracks to the then new PENN STATION Tunnels under the East River. At further right is a LIRR Commuter train stopping at the Hunters Point Station ! (*) Although not shown on the Rogoff 1960 map - perhaps a 2nd connection track existed from the LIRR yards at left (north side) onto the tunnel-bound westbound IRT track, for a short time, solely to deliver the first Steinway cars to the line. Another mystery. CLICK THUMBNAIL IMAGE for LARGER image  Regards - Joe F |
|
|
| (1537315) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 4 19:50:04 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 19:06:32 2020. Also: nycitymaps website- Advanced search- Intersection- Jackson Ave & Davis St-1924 map. |
|
|
| (1537316) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 4 20:01:15 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by randyo on Tue Feb 4 18:37:56 2020. After the 1924 cut at Fulton/Franklin, all Eastern and Southern gate car moves were done via the Williamsburg Bridge to the reverse track, just south of Chambers St. From there it was via the tracks from Chambers to the Manhattan Bridge, down 4th Ave, to Coney Island. I have never seen any pics or descriptions of gate cars being moved under the Broadway subway, to/from Queens. |
|
|
| (1537317) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 4 20:01:16 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by randyo on Tue Feb 4 18:37:56 2020. After the 1924 cut at Fulton/Franklin, all Eastern and Southern gate car moves were done via the Williamsburg Bridge to the reverse track, just south of Chambers St. From there it was via the tracks from Chambers to the Manhattan Bridge, down 4th Ave, to Coney Island. I have never seen any pics or descriptions of gate cars being moved under the Broadway subway, to/from Queens. |
|
|
| (1537319) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 4 20:46:16 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 4 20:01:16 2020. Have you ever seen any pictures of gate cars being moved from the Eastern to CI either? |
|
|
| (1537345) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by K. Trout on Wed Feb 5 08:35:14 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue Feb 4 19:06:32 2020. Between these images and your description in the other thread I became curious if any of this infrastructure still exists. I've highlighted the Flushing line in purple, IRT shop track in cyan, PRR connector in red, and another PRR track, which I believe is what the connector branched from, which appears to have connected the Sunnyside Yard exit with tunnel line 2.The track schematic:  The 1915 view, note the PRR connectors:  The city 1924 aerial:  Modern Google Maps aerial. I'm not sure if the red track is the same or not - it looks like it's in about the same place but it seems to disappear and reappear in different aerial maps. If so, it's quite neat that this piece of "temporary" infrastructure which was so critical to the Flushing line might not have been totally erased. 
|
|
|
| (1537366) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 5 13:27:41 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by randyo on Tue Feb 4 20:46:16 2020. No. But, during WWII, the Brooklyn Eagle had an article about a set of "C" cars being reversed at Chambers St, to go over the Manhattan Bridge for service at the Coney Island Shops. On the other hand, I have never seen any gate cars being drilled on the Broadway subway to/from Queens. Have you? |
|
|
| (1537386) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 5 16:25:27 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 5 13:27:41 2020. I’m too young to have ever seen gate cars drilled through the Bway Subway and you have to be in the right place at the right time to even see the current moves of Flushing Line cars being transferred thorough the BMT. Qs were transferred from the Eastern to CIY during my lifetime but I very seldom saw those moves either. I only recall once when I was a Plat C/R at Broad St seeing a train of Qs passing through Broad St enroute to Met and that was unusual since it passed through in the early afternoon rather than late at night when such a move would normally have taken place. |
|
|
| (1537411) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 5 20:32:19 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by randyo on Wed Feb 5 16:25:27 2020. Obviously, that Broad St move was done after the Q's had their clerestory roofs lowered for subway clearances. |
|
|
| (1537483) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:12:00 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 5 20:32:19 2020. It was (1966), although I think that prior to the opening of the new DeKalb tower and associated signal work and cable installation, they probably could have made it through with the original roofs. |
|
|
[1 2] |
||
|
Page 2 of 2 |
||
