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| (1536749) | |
Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 27 22:43:30 2020 One more before good night. Answer forthcoming in the morning light! |
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| (1536751) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by andy on Mon Jan 27 22:50:15 2020, in response to Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 27 22:43:30 2020. Astoria Elevated on 31st St. - 39th/Beebe Ave. Station (Dutch Kills today). |
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| (1536755) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 28 00:45:14 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by andy on Mon Jan 27 22:50:15 2020. facing which direction? LOL! |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1536768) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 28 12:04:02 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 28 00:45:14 2020. North. |
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| (1536800) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 17:47:41 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by andy on Mon Jan 27 22:50:15 2020. You're half right. Astoria El is correct, but the location is 30th Ave Sta. |
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| (1536808) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Jan 28 19:51:12 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 17:47:41 2020. Does anyone know whether the el cars seen on the structure are BMT or Manhattan Elevated stock? |
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| (1536810) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 20:19:34 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Jan 28 19:51:12 2020. Good question. I'll make a semi-educated guess here. Since those El-gate cars went down the 2nd Ave El which was IRT territory, I'd say that they were Manhattan Elevated/IRT stock and not BMT cars. |
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| (1536815) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Jan 28 22:16:45 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 20:19:34 2020. You may be right - the photo may predate the completion of the 60th Street tunnel, when the Astoria line was served only by the IRT. |
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| (1536819) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 23:11:36 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by qveensboro_plaza on Tue Jan 28 22:16:45 2020. Those cars are basically wooden, so they wouldn't be allowed in the 60th St tunnel anyway. |
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| (1536826) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 29 01:08:18 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 23:11:36 2020. The wooden BMT el cars never were intended to be used in the 60 St Tunnel. BMT service to both Astoria and Flushing was provided by el car shuttles that passengers rode to Qnsbro Plaza where they changed for steel subway trains for the trip downtown. |
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| (1536836) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Wed Jan 29 09:46:33 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 17:47:41 2020. Wow! Facing south. |
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| (1536838) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 29 10:45:35 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by G1Ravage on Wed Jan 29 09:46:33 2020. Correct! |
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| (1536852) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 29 16:52:10 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jan 28 20:19:34 2020. If this photo predates the 1923 beginning of joint service with the BMT, they are Manhattan el cars. They provided all of the Astoria service from the 1917 opening of the lines to the 1923 joint operation of the BMT. Even if it was after joint service began, I believe only IRT or Manhattan el cars laid up on the center track on the Astoria and Flushing branches. BMT gate and (later) "Q" cars used 4 leased tracks in the IRT Corona yard. |
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| (1536855) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 29 20:55:16 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 29 16:52:10 2020. Hello ElkeeperYou are correct. The BMT did not take the City's offer in 1916 to jointly operate the Flushing & Astoria Lines with the IRT under dual contracts. The BMT had no direct connections nor way to get to those two Queens Elevated lines. Therefore the IRT took full control, management and operation of both the Astoria and Flushing Line route services. That began when the IRT 2nd Avenue EL service via the Queensboro Bridge started on 7-23-1917 to Astoria - and 1-17-1918 to E.104th St-Alburtis Avenue on the Corona line -- and extended 5-14-1927 to 111st St & Willets Point Blvd. Stations. The IRT Flushing-Astoria Subway service from Manhattan started initially from Grand Central Station to Queens Plaza EL Station on 11-5-1916 - and to 103rd St Station and to Astoria terminal, on 4-21-1917 and 111th St Station on 10-13-1925 and Willets Point and Flushing Stations on 1-21-1928 The BMT in conjunction with their new 60th Street tunnel to bring the BMT Subway trains to Queens, decided to exercise their Dual C9ontracts rights - and started BMT EL Gate Car shuttles from Queensboro Plaza Station to Flushing & Astoria on 4-8-1923 and to 111th Street station on 10-13-1915. The consist were usually 1200 and 1400 series Gate motor and trailer cars with some 6-4-6 trailers mixed in. We all know that the 10' wide BMT Standards (subway cars) would not run past Queens Plaza Station as all stations outbound could only clear up to 9' wide steel IRT or wooden IRT & BMT EL cars. Thus the wooden BMT shuttles and after 1939 thru 1949 October, the Q and QX Type MUDC converted BMT gate car shuttles.. In the PHOTO shown - those are IRT EL Gate cars of the 6-4-6 window design (pre 1900-era built cars) and this photo is sometime before 1923 when MUDC cars were created from the later 1900-1910 built gate cars of the 6 paired (12)window design. The BMT did NOT have any 6-4-6 window gate cars as MOTOR CARS -- ONLY as trailer cars. Most of the BMT originally 1880's built 6-4-6 window steam engine hauled trailer gate cars were converted and electrified, with center doors added, as motor cars around 1899-1900 approx., and had a 6-1-door-1-6 side windows/door configuration. Those few remaining 6-4-6 trailer cars NOT modified & converted to motor cars - thus remained as 6-4-6- trailer cars only for their life span. And some of those trailers ran on the Flushing & Astoria line BMT shuttle services as late as 1946 Regards - Joe F |
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| (1536858) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 29 21:31:54 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 29 20:55:16 2020. How did the BMT El gate cars get access to Corona and Astoria El trackage since tunnel access was prohibited & 2nd Ave El was strictly IRT (under lease from Manhattan El) turf? |
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| (1536863) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 29 22:27:02 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 29 21:31:54 2020. IMPORTANT TYPO CORRECTION -- date correction - see below"The BMT in conjunction with their new 60th Street tunnel to bring the BMT Subway trains to Queens, decided to exercise their Dual Contracts rights - and started BMT EL Gate Car shuttles from Queensboro Plaza Station to Flushing & Astoria on 4-8-1923 and to 111th Street station --- on 10-13-1915. (CORRECTION HERE >>) SHOULD READ "on 10-13-1925" " regards - Joe F |
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| (1536871) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Jan 30 07:34:03 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 29 21:31:54 2020. The BMT might have been allowed to move them through the tunnels as long as they didn't carry passengers. |
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| (1536902) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jan 30 13:30:05 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by 3-9 on Thu Jan 30 07:34:03 2020. The only BMT subway tunnels that could clear the gate cars were on the Centre St subway (as it was called), between Essex/Delancey and Chambers St. After reversing south of Chambers, they could clear the 4th Ave subway, between The Manhattan Bridge and the Sea Beach open cut. Because of a steel car shortage, the BRT/BMT ran gate cars on some rush hour Broadway-Brooklyn and even Myrtle Ave Expresses, until August 8th, 1927. The gate cars could not clear BMT Broadway subway tunnels. My guess is that the wooden BMT cars came via the LIRR, but I'm not 100% sure of this. Maybe Randy or Joe can enlighten us. |
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| (1536904) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Jan 30 13:57:50 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 29 20:55:16 2020. Is there a date for this photo? |
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| (1536918) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Jan 30 18:29:45 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Jan 30 13:57:50 2020. No date or photog credit given. |
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| (1536930) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Jan 30 20:02:40 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jan 30 13:30:05 2020. Hello EL KeeperI was told over 5 or so decades ago the transfer move details. Its all very hazy now but I do remember it involved the direct ON TRACKS connection between the BMT (ex BRT) and the LIRR to the IRT - via the LIRR tracks parallel to the IRT Corona Yards and shops. The route likely was via S. Brooklyn Railway from MacDonald Avenue from CI Yards - with strings of BMT Gate cars towed to LIRR At Parkville Jct and via same out to Queens via interconnecting LIRR Tracks. The LIRR and BRT / BMT / SBK had a long and intermixed cooperative and at earlier times joint operation association. The BMT EL Gate cars were towed to what was a very long single connection track which ran in a corridor-space between an IRT Corona Yard Track lead and the immediately close parallel LIRR Mainline in that area. The BMT EL cars could run into the IRT Corona yards on their own power as the yard had both EL uncovered style & Subway Covered Style 3rd Rails -- for the IRT subway and IRT 2nd Ave EL trains uses. BELOW is an aerial photo of the present area. On the photo I drew a RED LINE showing the location of the long parallel connecting track location; YELLOW LINE is where I expect the IRT to LIRR track into yard and switches connection were...logically: A LOWER WHITE CIRCLE shows where what appears to be a small LIRR team track yard area - long out of use and with what appears to be the ties or remnants of one of the 2 or 3 yard tracks that were there long ago: The UPPER WHITE CIRCLE shows where in a Google area view you can see the remnants of that transfer track and where it once had a switch connection to the W/B LIRR main track at that easterly end point: Here is the photo below:  BELOW is the GOOGLE AERIAL interactive view LINK -- I have it set at at the east end of the yards area -- NOTE the abandoned piece of LIRR track in center between the IRT yards and LIRR Tracks -- that is where the east end of the long connection track was. You can MOVE the image eastward (slowly scroll to the right on screen image) and you will see that long corridor where a single connection track once existed and heads into the now abandoned trackless team track yards at the west end of the IRT Yard track leads. INTERACTIVE AERIAL view along location of IRT to LIRR Connecting transfer track ================================================================= TWO ALTERNATE & POSSIBLE TRANSFER SCENARIOS BACK THEN - but not used BELOW is a Google interactive AERIAL view showing where the 1914-1915 installed single LIRR track connection to the outbound Flushing Subway track after it exits its tunnel portal. The location is about direct center of the image where the 2 IRT tracks are - about where the 7th & 8th car (from rear car of that train at right) - the south concrete wall was built with an opening for delivery of the brand new 1915 IRT Steinway cars to operate the initial Grand Central Station to Queens Plaza Station shuttle service until the Flushing & Astoria lines were completed by 1917. That wall could have been opened again for BMT Gate cars to be delivered that way by the LIRR -- but would have to be TOWED by, and on, the IRT track out to Queens Plaza Station where the "EL" Style uncovered 3rd rail territory tracks began. Then they could run on their own power. However - THIS WAS NOT the way I recall the transfer was made. LI City AERIAl - LIRR closely parallel to IRT Flushing Line The other possibility was via LIRR Car Floats to the New Haven RR E.132nd St Harlem River Bronx Freight yards (and float docks) -- to connect with the NHRR and NYW&B Railway "in yard" connective tracks -- and via the NYW&B Railway to IRT 3rd Ave El connective ramp track at Willis Ave. At that point the BMT EL trains could have run on their own power (*) over the Harlem River Bridge -- down south on the 2nd Ave EL to E. 50th Street interlocking -- changed (reversed) direction back north on N/B local track to the switch to the Queensboro bridge line -- and over into Queens Plaza Station on the IRT Flushing Line side tracks and platform. (*) If those BMT motor gate cars still had their El style Drop Sled 3rd Rail shoes) But this WAS NOT USED and would have relied on a lot of Special Moves and orders from the IRT Manhattan Railway Division Well, hopefully, this will explain it all -- regards - Joe F |
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| (1536936) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 30 23:32:44 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jan 30 13:30:05 2020. I hadn’t heard about BMT el cars not being able to clear the Bway subway tunnels and it’s highly unlikely that was the case since the BMT Bway Subway was designed before the PSC banned wooden cars from the subway and it was anticipated that subway service would likely be provided by wooden el cars. |
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| (1536943) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 31 00:15:31 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 29 22:27:02 2020. I expect it still shouldn't say "to Flushing & Astoria on 4-8-1923".Great info anyway. |
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| (1536944) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 31 00:32:00 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Jan 29 20:55:16 2020. The BMT had no direct connections nor way to get to those two Queens Elevated lines.Just the opposite of today, where it's the IRT that has no direct connection, and any transfers of cars between the Flushing line and the rest of the IRT must go via the BMT 60th Street tunnel. |
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| (1536959) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Jan 31 09:24:05 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 31 00:32:00 2020. Dyre DanYes ! In 1915-17 when the IRT-System-Only Queens Plaza EL Station, and the Flushing & Astoria El's, started operation by the IRT ONLY --- there WAS NO BMT direct track connection to that area yet -- the E. 60th Street tunnels were not even built yet. A bit more history: The E. 60th Street BMT 2 track tunnels opened to revenue service on Sunday, August 1, 1920, at 2 a.m. using a holiday schedule, along with the lower Manhattan BMT Montague Street Tunnel and the rest of the BMT Broadway Line. Regular service began to Queens the following day. Trains of steel 10 foot wide, 67 foot long BMT Standards had to terminate at Queens Plaza on their BMT North half 2 level Station of the of the huge station complex structure--- and reverse ends and go back to Manhattan thru the tunnels. The original designed construction plan provided for the IRT 2nd Ave. EL to use the two tracks ways on steelwork provided on the SOUTH side of the upper level. The BMT to Manhattan from Queens Plaza was provided for 2 trackways over the NORTH side half of the upper level of the Queensboro Bridge, which is why the original steel work on the west end of the BMT north half 2 level Queens Plaza station heads directly straight west to the north side of the bridge upper level. But, its upper level part of the EL structure ends before - and does not enter directly westward upon - the bridge approach area. That was because of the uncertainty of if, or when, the BMT would ever get any subway tunnels constructed to the E. 60th Street Manhattan end of the Queensboro Bridge -- and how to connect those tunnels to the bridge upper level. However, an investigation also determined that the Q-Boro bridge would not be able to handle the additional weight of steel and larger BMT subway trains; Thus, the E. 60th St. tunnel and its Queens portal was planned, designed and constructed for the BMT Queens entry, parallel to the Q Boro bridge along its north side. The chief engineer for the tunnel was a man named Clifford Milburn Holland. Therefore, as the IRT had solely taken over the Bridge's upper level, it had it's own 2 tracks newly installed in 1916-17, to be located at the direct center of the Bridge upper level, with a pedestrian walkway on either side of the 2 tracks, each built abd supported upon the originally provided single track steel-work under them on those outer sides. Some years later the outer two pedestrian walkways were removed, and the 2 IRT tracks were shifted to the north side half of the upper level, so as to facilitate installation of the new 2 lane auto upper roadway along the south side of the upper level. Regards - Joe F |
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| (1536960) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Jan 31 09:30:53 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jan 31 00:15:31 2020. Dyre DanYou are technically correct -- but I was just using those 2 terminal designations to text-simplify the final planned terminals and the lines to them. In particular, the "Flushing" meaning the Flushing line to whatever terminal in fact only then existed in 1923-25 regards - Joe F |
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| (1536989) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Jan 31 14:25:49 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Jan 30 20:02:40 2020. Thanks for the detailed info!Weren't the remains in the upper white circle supposed to be the remains of the Whitestone branch? The same one where the LIRR would temporarily store wrecked cars. |
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| (1536995) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 31 16:06:13 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by 3-9 on Fri Jan 31 14:25:49 2020. Thats what I thought too. I never knew or heard of a switch connection netween the LIRR & the Corona Yds., although I've heard of one just east of the Hunterspoint Ave Sta. |
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| (1536998) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 16:40:30 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Jan 30 20:02:40 2020. JOE F.AFAIK THERE NEVER WAS A TRACK CONNECTION BETWEEN THE IRT& THE LIRR AT CORONA.I,VE SEEN DETAILED HAND DRAWN TRACKS MAPS DRAWN BY ROBERT EMORY AT STONEY BROOK UNIVERSITY OF THIS AREA AND THEY SHOW NO SUCH CONNECTION.THIS IS THE SAME ROBERT EMORY WHO,IN MY MIND THRU HIS RESEARCH AND HAND DRAWN BLUEPRINTS PROVED THAT THE MINEOLA DID GO TO VARIOUS RACE TRACKS ON LONG ISLAND[JAMAICA-N- AQUADUCT] BESIDES BELMONT RACETRACK. |
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| (1536999) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 31 16:44:09 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 16:40:30 2020. Steve, if there was not connection at the Corona Yards from the LIRR, was it done by Hunters Point, as previously mentioned here? |
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| (1537013) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Jan 31 18:02:50 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 16:40:30 2020. Hello SteveThat means then that likely the IND 76th Street Station never existed on the IND and the LIRR-IRT Track that connected the both systems at Atlantic Avenue never existed and that Mineola never ran thru that one trackway connection to get to an from Belmont Racetrack. Those seem to be the "official" conclusions for both. (I myself personally DO "believe" that for a short time the single IRT-LIRR Atlntic Avenue Station track WAS installed and Mineola did do a few trips to Belmont Track. It just makes common sense as the connection was planned for, designed, and its path was constructed ) Anyway - I will stand on what I was told back in very early 1960's by a very notable historian and ERA member and former officer of the ERA (long deceased now) -- the Queens IRT to LIRR track connection was very temporary and did not last long at what I believe he stated was Corona. Perhaps it WAS at L.I. City (LIRR to IRT there) . . Was BOB EMORY even physically there in Corona - or anywhere - in 1923 to document ANY transfer location for the BMT EL cars to the IRT ?? You yourself likewise provide no information other than Emory's personal hand drawn maps - and you do not provide the possible alternate location for the BMT EL Car transfers - either by your own info or from EMORY. And EMORY doesn't seem to have ever documented how (ie; Delivery Location) the BMT EL Gate cars got transferred to the IRT Corona Yards and the Flushing - Astoria lines -- As I myself (heh) was also not there in 1923 to personally document those BMT Car transfers - I will stick with what I stated from my long ago sources. Its the best I can provide -- including the 2 alternate "usable" transfer routes I provided. After all - come on Steve - heh - its nearly 100 years ago so who really give a darn at this point except perhaps a handful of historian dinosaurs like us. Regards - Joe F PS: Lastly - LOSE the ALL CAPS in your posted messages, Steve!! - |
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Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 18:15:27 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 31 16:44:09 2020. yes,i,ve posted on it several times over the years.where the queens plaza bound track heads up the trestle there was a switchback into lirr trackage.there was a 2- car IRT inspection shed with a run thru into lirr trackage according to the ERA there is evidence that the Steinway cars were delivered via there own wheels to the irt via this. |
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| (1537016) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 18:15:54 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Fri Jan 31 16:44:09 2020. yes,i,ve posted on it several times over the years.where the queens plaza bound track heads up the trestle there was a switchback into lirr trackage.there was a 2- car IRT inspection shed with a run thru into lirr trackage according to the ERA there is evidence that the Steinway cars were delivered via there own wheels to the irt via this. |
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| (1537018) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 18:26:18 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Jan 31 18:02:50 2020. caps?not gonna happen. I was just to involved to switch over please name the ERA member who stated this.please read up on bob emory,he was the #1 lirr historian and a friend of Vincent seyfried I asked vinny one day why he never asked bob about the llrr/irt connection.his reply" I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT" talk about opportunity lost!about the brt gates being delivered to the IRT,iirc they were delivered via the 60th st tunnel. |
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| (1537023) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 31 19:02:28 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 18:26:18 2020. I don't think that there was a physical switch between BMT trains coming out of the 60th St tunnel and the IRT Flushing & Astoria line at QBP. It was two seperate operations since BMT trains were 10 ft wide & would not fit on the IRT platforms, thus no need for a switch prior to 1942. Up until then, when smaller IRT cars went to/from the mainline, the equiptment came over the Queensboro Bridge. |
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| (1537080) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 1 13:58:29 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jan 31 18:15:27 2020. Thanks! Someone sent me an private email saying that the 1200-1400 series gate cars were brought up on the BMT Broadway Subway. I replied, saying that these gate car roofs were 7 inches higher than the Standards, which might not clear the tunnels there. |
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| (1537084) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Feb 1 14:46:01 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 1 13:58:29 2020. iirc,I read this in an old ERA bulletin many,many years ago.if I,m wrong somebody please provide evidence to correct this. |
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| (1537085) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 1 15:25:12 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by TUNNELRAT on Sat Feb 1 14:46:01 2020. I am curious to find out how the Q cars in 1938, as well as the gate cars, in 1923, reached the Flushing/Astoria lines. |
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| (1537091) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Feb 1 17:48:23 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Jan 31 09:24:05 2020. Was the north half of the Queensboro Plaza station there from the beginning, sitting unused until 1923? |
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| (1537092) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 1 17:51:01 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 31 19:02:28 2020. There were always physical switches between the IRT and BMT at Qnsbro Plz since it was always the BMT’s intention to operate through service with steel trains as soon as the 2 companies could agree as to who would pay for the installation of either gap fillers or gantlet tk to allow for trains of both sizes to operate to both Astoria and Flushing. Of course no agreement was ever reached so until 1949 when the BMT and IRT got the Astoria and Flushing Lines respectively, BMT service continued to be supplied by el car shuttles. Don’t forget too, that since trains of both companies operated to both Astoria and Flushing, both lines had to have direct access to both parts of the Qnsbro Plz station complex. |
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| (1537097) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 1 18:38:37 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by randyo on Sat Feb 1 17:51:01 2020. "There were always physical switches between the IRT and BMT at Qnsbro Plz"...that since trains of both companies operated to both Astoria and Flushing, both lines had to have direct access to both parts of the Qnsbro Plz station complex."But NOT to the 60th St Tunnel. All Astoria & Flushing trains(prior to 1949) came from Times Sq. I was thinking of switches connecting trackage from the 60th st tunnel to either the Astoria or Flushing lines prior to 1942 when the 2nd Ave El connection was severed. IIRC those trains when ending their runs at QBP went on to be turned on a tail track adjacent to the Flushing Line along Queens Blvd to right before the Rawson St Sta. That tail track had no physical connection to the Flushing line. Structural eveidence of this maneuver is still there today. |
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| (1537155) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 14:41:47 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 1 18:38:37 2020. Hello Jim and any here interestedHere is a fairly simple but accurate track Map created with my notations and arrows for indicating upper and lower level tracks for both the BMT and IRT sides of the massive Queens Plaza Station - as it existed PRIOR to October 1949 BELOW is an embedded image  --- but it may be better viewed in much larger full detail with the CLICK ON Thumbnail image below - click it for the much large detailed image CLICK THIS IMAGE  Note that the BMT Shuttles from the Flushing Line could go to their terminating upper and lower level (on NORTH side of BMT Station complex Half) tracks and platforms -- and go back Flushing El from either track on either level. However, to come from the Flushing El and terminate, and head out instead to the Astoria El, the shuttles had to use double "X" crossing as noted and go to the track to the UPPER Level BMT platform, which ends at a bumper at its west end. On leaving it would switch to the directly parallel to its north upper level track that took it to the proper outbound direction to enter the Astoria Line outbound local track. Those multiple routes, separate-company trains, and various interlocking junctions must have been nightmares for the the various towers and Towermen operating them - heh Note that the October-Nov. 1949 newly installed steelwork and short connection tracks on both levels to shift the BMT Tracks form their 60th St Tunnel, over to the ex-2nd Avenue EL tracks on the north side of the IRT Upper & Lower Level island platforms, is indicated also on the map -- is indicated on the map plan. Hopefully this map will be of use to show how complicated but yet functional this massing complex was. Regards - Joe F |
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| (1537157) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Feb 2 15:08:35 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 14:41:47 2020. Hello Joe,I'm at work right now, on my lunch hour, due to different systems I'm not able to view the images. I am looking forward to viewing them when I get home tonight. I have an old Headlights from 1949 which showed the original trackways and the revised trackways, after QP was split between each division. I also have another diagram of the same QP changes, but can't remember now where it's from. I remember from one of the diagrams, when it was still split between IRT and BMT, that there was a single layup/tail (correct terminology here?) track from the BMT side, used by steel trains when reversing. Thank you as always for your sharing of history and historic images and maps. Best, Express Rider |
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| (1537159) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 2 15:25:32 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Express Rider on Sun Feb 2 15:08:35 2020. Will someone PLEASE give me a direct answer!!! How did the BMT get its 1923 gate cars and 1939 "Q" and "QX" cars onto the Fushing/Astoria lines??? |
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| (1537166) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 16:07:46 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Express Rider on Sun Feb 2 15:08:35 2020. Express RiderI went thru great length and already gave a direct answer containing 3 options - The One being (Corona)- IIRC - which was the one I was told of back in 1960. All 3 versions would have been by direct on-rail (basic) BMT to IRT delivery ! I doubt if all those BMT EL cars were delivered by trailer-truck one at a time, heh ! What more do you need ? OR - simply, YOU do all the research and see if you can find out for yourself ! |
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| (1537167) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 16:17:25 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 2 15:25:32 2020. CORRECTION >>> TO >> EL KEEPER( And NOT to Express Rider - Sorry - I mixed the names up !! --------------------------------------------------------------- I went thru great length and already gave a direct answer containing 3 options - The One being (Corona)- IIRC - which was the one I was told of back in 1960. All 3 versions would have been by direct on-rail (basic) BMT to IRT delivery ! I doubt if all those BMT EL cars were delivered by trailer-truck one at a time, heh ! What more do you need ? OR - simply, YOU do all the research and see if you can find out for yourself ! |
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| (1537185) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 2 19:51:46 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 14:41:47 2020. Thanks Joe for taking the time & trouble to post that.I've seen diagrams of the old QBP Sta before but not with the color & division breakdown like this. Very interesting! |
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| (1537186) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Feb 2 20:08:18 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 16:17:25 2020. you didn`t answer who was the ERA member that told you this?,m asking out of pure curiousity. |
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| (1537192) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Feb 2 22:16:15 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Feb 2 16:07:46 2020. Hello Joe,I'm only seeing this post of yours right now (Sunday evening) after having read that you mixed up folks and meant to send this content to Elkeeper. It's all OK. :) Even if I had seen this post prior to seeing the post about the mixup, I would have understood that maybe/ probably this was meant for another poster here. And many thank you's for taking the time to assemble the track diagram with colors (!!) of QBP! I have seen other track diagrams of QBP, (mentioned this in my other post), but I'll always find something of interest and detail to examine, whenever someone composes their own track diagram of this area. I like the track diagrams which superimpose the upper and lower levels, rather than two diagrams, one for upper and one for lower, with A's or B's at the end of each diagram, that you have to "eyeball" to put together yourself - unless of course you photo copy them (yes, I'm still old school, no photoshop --- yet anyhow) and tape them together. Of course, the best would be getting that old time machine into reality and journeying back, once prior to 1940, and a second time, during the mid to late forties. Roger Arcara's assembly of films in his 2nd ave el tape, has a few brief views of the former full QPB. There's once scene where its a RFW view outbound, and for a second you can see a train of Q's entering one of the lower level trackways. Best, Express Rider |
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| (1537197) | |
Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:) |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Feb 3 00:08:48 2020, in response to Re: Guess the Location??...Not so easy!:), posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Feb 2 20:08:18 2020. Hello Steve !NO, I did not answer your question - nor will I do so here. You summarily dismissed what I, in good faith, wrote here - as to what I was told back in 1960 in a conversation between myself and a person (with a second then noted historian pal of his also present in the conversation) on this subject. Therefore, you summarily dismissed that person (my then source) and his companion fellow historian, and thus, myself. But, without your additionally presenting any alternate proof or documentation to refute what I was told and I thus related here. But Steve, that's not an issue with me whatsoever ! You and I are both old historians. However, as BOTH persons (whose names you likely have heard of anyway) are long deceased, and cannot now describe here themselves, their side and whatever facts or data they had back in 1960, I see NO logical or practical purpose, reason, for their names to be bandied about here - perhaps only for them to be possibly dismissed or sullied. As far as Bob Emery - as extremely very well respected as he was, and I knew of him for many decades, he is still listed as THE "UNOFFICIAL" LIRR HISTORIAN on many records. Even if he was one of, if probably the most, prolific LIRR historian we have known - along with Vince (Seyfried). And yet Emery has no location-track-maps drawn of any LIRR to IRT deliveries for, specifically, the "1922-23 delivery of BMT EL cars" to Queens for those BMT EL shuttles ??? If he did, we likely would not be having this discussion at all! Lastly, I only relayed what I was told as far as I can best remember after nearly 60 years -- but I will gladly accept and very much value any physical proof -- ie: maps, photos, transfer special-moves-records etc., -- provided of such transfer, that refutes what I, as only a "messenger", have provided. Best Regards ! - Joe F |
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