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| Re: 2nd ave bus rapid transit (811502) | |
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| (812485) | |
Re: 2nd ave bus rapid transit |
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Posted by Grand Concourse on Fri Jul 24 19:10:12 2009, in response to 2nd ave bus rapid transit, posted by newlots#2 on Fri Jul 24 18:19:37 2009. I don't believe everyone living on 2nd Av or for the most part 3rd Av to 1st av are the 'rich masters of the universe a-holes'.Also how do you explain why Lexington-86th St is such a heavily used station if only the rich lives on the UES? |
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| (812662) | |
Re: 2nd ave bus rapid transit |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Jul 25 13:15:45 2009, in response to 2nd ave bus rapid transit, posted by newlots#2 on Fri Jul 24 18:19:37 2009. Wait, you're serious? Ummm FUCK NO! Go move to Bogota if you want BRT |
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| (1536676) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 26 18:04:49 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Jul 22 15:26:44 2009. LOL! |
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| (1536679) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 26 19:46:17 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 26 18:04:49 2020. Slow Sunday huh? |
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| (1536680) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jan 26 20:35:20 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 26 18:04:49 2020. What are you LOL'ing about? 11 years after I posted that message we still only have a small portion of the line completed to 96th Street. There is no realistic timetable for completion to 125th Street, to say nothing of the two portions stretching to Chatham Square.Who says we will ever have anything more than what we have right now? |
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| (1536684) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Jan 26 22:01:08 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jan 26 20:35:20 2020. My guess is that they will eventually finish the northern end to 125 St. Unless significant advancements in medicine develop over the next few years, most of us probably won't live to see anything south of 63 St. |
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| (1536686) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 26 23:10:28 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Jan 26 20:35:20 2020. Except that you were claiming that not even that would be built. |
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| (1536688) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 01:17:16 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Jan 26 23:10:28 2020. which was a likely outcome back then IMHO. I am glad we got something although the stupid design driven costs and the featherbedding /corruption cheated us of a better product. ANY new subway work should be shallow cut and coveras done on the original IRT. Way cheaper to build, way more rider useful, lower operational costs. US transit projects are the most expensive per mile on the planet; we must fix this or we really won'tsee any new segments. |
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| (1536690) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 27 01:33:47 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 01:17:16 2020. I don’t agree it was a likely outcome in 2009.Cut and cover is no longer cheaper. |
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| (1536702) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 27 11:26:36 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 27 01:33:47 2020. And cut and cover for very deep stations, as is done on 2nd Ave, is particularly expensive. |
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| (1536707) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 12:38:38 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 27 01:33:47 2020. I dispute that opinion. Start with simply the time it costs for each employee involved in the construction to get down to the aactual work site. Add the same wasted time for moving spoils out, getting materials in, the extra cost for the elevators/scaffolding for deep work none of which are needed for the shallow ditches of the cut and cover tunnels. The entire project is smaller and simpler which shouldalsomeans faster. We simply must make these projects more efficient. |
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| (1536711) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 27 14:47:08 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 01:17:16 2020. Cut and cover or not, $750 million stations with 600' long mezzanines are ridiculous. |
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| (1536717) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 27 15:05:47 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 12:38:38 2020. TBMs and the cost of cut and cover related disruptions change all that. |
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| (1536721) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 27 15:39:08 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 27 11:26:36 2020. However, if SAS were built by cut and cover, it wouldn’t be so deep. |
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| (1536723) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Jan 27 15:41:27 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 27 15:39:08 2020. Back in the olden days. Today, anything is possible. |
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| (1536739) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 21:18:37 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 27 14:47:08 2020. agreed. |
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| (1536740) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 21:31:07 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 27 15:05:47 2020. TBMs typpically mean deep stations. Deep stations impose a time penalty on every rider because time is wasted simply getting to/from platforms to sidewalks. The geniuses at WMATA have given us world record depth stations which even with escalators all the way cost over5 minutes between fare control and the platforms.Disruptionsare short term and one time costs--the ridiculous depth stations are a permanent excess cost ofoperation. |
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| (1536747) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Jan 27 22:13:50 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 21:31:07 2020. What we really need are more innovative cut-and cover methods, just as innovative methods are being used to build the third Main Line LIRR track. So far, all the innovation has gone toward deep boring, on the assumption that cut-and-cover is simply too disruptive and will not be accepted by the community. |
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| (1536752) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 23:28:38 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Jan 27 22:13:50 2020. agree on need for new methodologies. Long past time adopt "snap track" both single track and turnouts/crossing. Pre assembled stteel frames for street support etc. |
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| (1536761) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 28 07:34:26 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 01:17:16 2020. I agree. The 86th Station is ridiculously deep, with an enormous mezzanine. When they opened Archer, they said they'd learned from the mistake they made overbuilding it, and any future projects would be more sensible. We see how that worked out.Unless you're building under a mini-mountain range (168th, 181st, and 191st on the 1) or going under the river (Lexington Ave on the E/M), build shallow, like Prince and 8th Streets. I also don't see how a deep-bored tunnel was less disruptive topside. I checked out Second Avenue many times during the construction- and it was plenty disrupted!! All going deep did was add unnecessary cost. |
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| (1536765) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jan 28 10:24:25 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 21:31:07 2020. even with escalators all the wayElevators would be faster, would they not? Still, five minutes seems ridiculously long for using escalators. That would be an extra ten minutes per trip if all stations were that deep. Anything that deep needs a bank of elevators. 63rd/Lex used to take seemingly forever to get down to the platforms on the escalators. (What was it really, two minutes? Three?) Now, with the elevators at the Third Ave. end, there is almost no delay. |
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| (1536766) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Jan 28 10:42:59 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jan 28 10:24:25 2020. forget that. Anything that deep needs slides. |
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| (1536777) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 13:15:30 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jan 28 10:24:25 2020. for perspective on WMATA, a couple years ago as many of the escalators around the systemwere OOS (hello deferred/poorly done maintenance) a board member (but clearly not a regular user) opined they should just remove the escalators and set steps. |
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| (1536792) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 28 16:35:39 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 23:28:38 2020. The MTA does use “snap track” methods in certain locations. When I visited the MOW facility in Linden Yd in Bkln, the managers were shown how special work like single and diamond Xovers were assembled in that facility, and then broken down and shipped to the actual work location for easy installation. |
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| (1536793) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 28 16:38:31 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 21:31:07 2020. Deep bore stations are nothing new in the transit industry. London has been using deep bore construction for years ever since the turn of the 20th century and those were done by manual labor long before the invention of TBMs. |
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| (1536795) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 16:50:31 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 28 16:35:39 2020. good! |
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| (1536796) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 16:55:04 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 28 16:38:31 2020. No matter how they are dug, they impose time penalties on riders. someplaces, they may be necessary 53rd & 3rd for instance, but otherwise I maintain the greater utility of shallow stations, Astor Place, 8th St/B'way, the two sides of 14th at 1st etc. whether usingg steps or the ADA required elevator, faster transit platform to sidewalk. |
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| (1536805) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 28 19:42:53 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 16:55:04 2020. Londoners don’t seem to mind. |
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| (1536812) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 28 20:44:36 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Jan 28 10:42:59 2020. I'd give a slide a try going down. Maybe have a cog railway for going up. |
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| (1536820) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 23:30:12 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 28 19:42:53 2020. I became really pissed when staying at my late mother'shome inRockville MD. The shorter route was WMATA Red Line to Whearon then a bus . The 5 minutes from platform to daylight was just another delay--the bus was 30' headway. I grant that many others, not used to the quick convenience of old NY systems, may not care. |
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| (1536822) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 28 23:35:46 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 27 14:47:08 2020. How much do you think a more useful mezzanine added to the cost? |
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| (1536823) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 28 23:39:30 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 21:31:07 2020. SAS stations are not as deep as WMATA stations. At the same time, I think that an escalator (when it works) adds so much convenience to the vertical transportation that, especially when going up, the extra time is worth it. For longer subway trips, the excess time is negligible.Also, cut and cover stations would still require elevators due to ADA. |
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| (1536824) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 29 01:04:45 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 23:30:12 2020. If I recall, the Red Line to Wheaton was supposed to be above ground but the NIMBYS in the area insisted that the line be placed underground to preserve the quiet of the neighborhood. Many times the needs of the many are eclipsed by the selfishness of the few. |
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| (1536828) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 29 01:15:34 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 28 23:39:30 2020. I certainly favor escalators. As to elevators, my family includes wheelchair users That said, the cost of single flight escalators or elevators is certainly less both to buy/install, and to operate than multi flight units. IIRC both the CPW IND and a segment of the IRT in Brooklyn were built two flights down to the inbound trains, one flight up coming home, again a very rider friendly design. These should be easy to add elebvators as a single shaft can serve both directions. |
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| (1536830) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 29 01:16:45 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 29 01:04:45 2020. likely correct. WMATA caved in many neighborrhoods. |
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| (1536831) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 29 01:19:26 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 28 23:35:46 2020. It may be possible that the full length mezzanines may have been necessitated by the placement of the elevators since it may not have been possible to place the elevators to the platform in exact proximity to the fare controls and street elevators. |
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| (1536833) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 29 02:55:29 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 29 01:19:26 2020. likely the case when a 2 track island platform is under a wide street/avenue. Precisely why I prefer the layout of for instance 1st Ave at 14th street. Shallow, wall platforms fare control at platforms level IIRC (it has been maybe 40 years). |
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| (1536839) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jan 29 11:01:54 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 28 23:35:46 2020. At 86/2 and 72/2, I would guess hugely. 3 blocks of 100 foot deep cut and cover. Much fancier (and almost certainly much more expensive) than the design used for Lex/63, which is equally deep. |
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| (1536840) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 29 11:51:00 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by AlM on Wed Jan 29 11:01:54 2020. Assuming cut and cover was actually used instead of mining, a full length mezzanine can't add that much to the cost: Since the entire length of the station has to be excavated, a higher ceiling only decreases the amount of backfill, and probably the weight of the backfill that needs to be supported is even less. Moreover, The stations lack platform columns, It's possible that the ceiling has to be a certain height anyway for structural integrity (IIRC, they're all barrel vaults). If that's the case, a partial mezzanine only means a useless but pretty high ceiling over the rest of the station (like in DC) and the "Stations should all be built like it's still 1904" crowd would complain anyway. |
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| (1536841) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jan 29 12:13:08 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 29 11:51:00 2020. Since the entire length of the station has to be excavatedI'm questioning whether the entire length of 72/2 and 86/2 would have needed to be excavated if there had only been a minimal mezzanine a la Lex/63. |
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| (1536889) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Jan 30 10:31:01 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 28 20:44:36 2020. Due to budget constraints, the cog railway has been replaced with a platform attached to a rope. |
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| (1536890) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by ro_jo on Thu Jan 30 10:45:55 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 16:55:04 2020. I think shallow stations provide the opportunity to do better than elevators for ADA compliance: Ramps from street levelI'm thinking of stations like 125th/Lenox on the 2/3. Wide sidewalks nearby, and a very shallow station. When I calculated this a few years ago, I found that to comply with ADA slope, the ramp would need to be about 2/3 of a block long. Less long-term maintenance complexity, easier to deal with a surge of people, and no enclosed space to turn in to a defacto bathroom. |
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| (1536907) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 30 14:25:44 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by ro_jo on Thu Jan 30 10:45:55 2020. bravo |
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| (1536914) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Jan 30 16:42:27 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 28 16:55:04 2020. Leave room for a crossover/small mezzanine. 68th or 96th on the Lex seem like good models. |
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| (1536916) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 30 17:40:06 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by ro_jo on Thu Jan 30 10:45:55 2020. Yes, but that is a massive loss of sidewalk compared to an elevator. Also, long ramps are annoying, stairs are more convenient if you can use them, so it would be irritating if the ramp replaced the stairs. |
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| (1536924) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Jan 30 19:44:25 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 28 07:34:26 2020. LOL!! |
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| (1536925) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Jan 30 19:45:27 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 27 01:17:16 2020. No it was not a likely outcome in 2009. |
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| (1536933) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Jan 30 20:15:28 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by ro_jo on Thu Jan 30 10:45:55 2020. Businesses that are on the 2/3rds of the block where a ramp is located will complain. |
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| (1536942) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 30 23:57:19 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by ro_jo on Thu Jan 30 10:45:55 2020. They could do a multiple ramp like at 42/8. |
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| (1537089) | |
Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Feb 1 17:41:26 2020, in response to Re: 2nd Ave Subway Setback, posted by ro_jo on Thu Jan 30 10:45:55 2020. Make it 1/3 of a block long (ramp entrance to cross street) with a switchback in the middle so the full length is 2/3. |
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