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Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019 Here's a very, very long but enthralling read on every pitfall encountered when trying to make the world's shittiest busy station less shitty.This Is Why Your Holiday Travel Is Awful. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 1 04:44:03 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. Oh well. Maybe look at "Alternative G" one more time? One can daydream about Acelas running WAS-BOS via Park Avenue instead of Hell Gate and stopping at GCT instead of NYP too . . . |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Dave on Sun Dec 1 04:49:59 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. Fascinating and very well written. Thank you for posting this. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Dec 1 10:55:30 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. There are secret routes to avoid the "Barrel Corridor." The problem is most people do not know the Secrets of Penn , but they know only one way.8th Avenue side From the 8th Avenue side use the Hilton Corridor which is between tracks 11/12 and 13/14.It leads to the South end of the IRT station and has a connection to the LIRR main waiting area , discussed below ,and the NJ Transit Concourse which has exits to 31st Street. From the LIRR main waiting area walk to the South. You will come to the Hilton Corridor . The West end Concourse has exits to the West side of 8th Avenue and to the A/C/E 7th Avenue side From the upper level there are exits to the street at the north and south ends. Walk towards 7th Avenue and there are escalators to the street. 33rd Street ends at Penn. There are stairs and escalators to Penn . From the NJ Transit Concourse there is an entry and exit to the Street . Walk towards Track1 and then East . Upper Level Walk east towards 7th Avenue. About mid way is an exit to the street . Once at the street turn North to continue East to 7th Avenue or turn South and then west to get to 8th Avenue . |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Dec 1 11:58:23 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. Meh. Democracy is messy. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 11:59:36 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. And soon, very few if any places to eat near the main LIRR concourse. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Sun Dec 1 12:59:56 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. While it’s true that we need a construction czar with power and gumption, using Robert Moses as an example is silly. Moses did a lot of good early in his career but later became a textbook example of absolute power corrupting absolutely. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 13:14:50 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Dec 1 12:59:56 2019. The initial sin of tearing down Penn Station was done by the PRR, when there were not that many intercity passengers by today's standards, to a glorified subway station. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Dec 1 16:41:54 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. Interesting article. How do we reconcile the need to prevent the abuses of a Moses, but at the same time, get things done? |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 17:04:45 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Dec 1 16:41:54 2019. Ronan was theoretically supposed to be the public transit Robert Moses, but he got nothing done except shutting down 2 els. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 07:36:29 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. Enh, I think this article is suffering from motivated reasoning. The problem is that the improvements created by development are far less transformational than they used to be. The original Penn Station project replaced a time consuming ferry ride from Jersey City or Long Island City. The new Penn Station project will make the ambiance a bit nicer. Even if moving MSG could be accomplished, where is there another transit accessible location in Manhattan it could be rebuilt?Truth is that the City can build new things. Hudson Yards, the convention centre, new Yankee and Mets stadiums, the Barclays center, second ave subway and East Side Access are all examples. Yes they cost more because it's not cool to kick certain interest groups to the curb, but they are still getting built. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Dec 2 09:49:43 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 07:36:29 2019. Truth is that the City can build new things. Hudson Yards, the convention centre, new Yankee and Mets stadiums, the Barclays center, second ave subway and East Side Access are all examples. Yes they cost more because it's not cool to kick certain interest groups to the curb, but they are still getting built.Some of those are private projects, not government. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by ro_jo on Mon Dec 2 10:30:49 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Dec 2 09:49:43 2019. So was the original Penn station. Doesn't mean the government isn't heavily involved. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Dec 2 11:04:30 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Dec 2 09:49:43 2019. Hudson Yards and the Barclays Center required tremendous government involvement to make them possible. They are far from strictly private projects. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Dec 2 11:10:18 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Sun Dec 1 13:14:50 2019. Yeah, but as I wrote in 2014:To me, it was a "necessary evil:" While I would have loved to see it having been saved, you have to keep in mind had it actually been saved back in the 1960's, by the early '70s that incarnation of Penn Station likely would have become very dangerous as with the way that was built, it would have been an invitation for drug dealers and others to hide out at various points of it This would only have gotten worse as the twin recessions of 1969-'70 and '73-'74-'75 caused New York to teeter on the brink of bankruptcy and it likely would not have been able to be properly secured in many places. Especially by 1986 when we were dealing with a crack cocaine epidemic (that only really hit home to many when Len Bias died two days after he was drafted by the Boston Celtics at #2 overall in the '86 NBA draft from using crack), there would likely have been cries to tear Penn Station down, especially if the old Garden (which was already becoming obsolete by 1968 and if it had not been replaced at that time would have been REALLY obsolete by 1986) had remained on 8th Avenue between 49th and 50th, even if it had been renovated a time or two and possibly expanded to go across 50th Street towards 51st by then there likely would have been cries to move MSG to above Penn Station as of course actually happened (ironically, back in '86 there were talks of building a new MSG where the Javits Center is). Had the old Penn Station survived that, by the 1990s it probably would have been renovated the way Grand Central was, but it would have been at best a VERY rocky road to get to that point. One thing tearing down the old Penn Station did do was spur the development of 1 & 2 Penn Plaza. Without those buildings and the current MSG, I suspect crime in that area would have become MUCH worse than it did become during the 1970s because of all the hiding spots in the old Penn Station. Also, it has to be noted had the still-current MSG not been built when it was in 1967-'68, Sonny Werblin (who while not Robert Moses had a TON of power with the sports teams in New York in the 1960's, '70s and first part of the '80s) would likely have looked to have built what became (when it actually opened in 1981) The Brendan Byrne Arena (later IZOD Center before it closed) with the rest of The Meadowlands Sports complex in 1976 with the likely intent of moving the Knicks and Rangers to such an arena. THAT would have been considered by many to have been a MUCH bigger crime than tearing down the old Penn Station no matter how much people who don't care about sports want to think otherwise. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:07:45 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Dec 2 11:10:18 2019. At the very least, that huge taxi terminal off 7th Ave would have had to be shut down by 9/11 if not sooner. It needed more places to sit. It also had HVAC issues not easily solved. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 2 12:19:06 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 07:36:29 2019. The original Penn Station project replaced a time consuming ferry ride from Jersey City or Long Island CityMore true in the latter case than the former; and the PRR had the H&M connecting to it in several places. (Exchange Place Terminal stayed open for a half century after NYP opened and there was a reason.) |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 2 12:19:40 2019, in response to Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Nov 30 23:10:29 2019. From the article:"The Port Authority, the massive bureaucracy that controls the New York area’s ports, airports and several bridges, demanded that the Long Island Railroad provide a straight-shot route from Farley to Kennedy Airport..." So there could have been a direct rail link to JFK, instead of Airtrain? |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:32:07 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 2 12:19:40 2019. Yes. Either the Rockaway Beach line or a branch off the Atlantic Branch somewhere west of Locust Manor. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:43:19 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 2 07:36:29 2019. "The original Penn Station project replaced a time consuming ferry ride from Jersey City or Long Island City."Only for intercity and LIRR passengers. Jersey commuters were expected to keep going to Jersey City or taking H&M (PATH), which is why their Newark terminal was moved from Park Place (NJPAC) to Newark Penn. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 2 13:02:03 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:32:07 2019. I understand that. What I was getting at the s, the PANYNJ's excuse for building Airtrain instead of extending the LIRR or subway all the way to the terminals, was false. Airport usage fees were clearly not the only source of funding, if a Penn Station quid pro quo included LIRR service to JFK. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 13:04:46 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 2 13:02:03 2019. LIRR service to JFK died with the City's financial crisis 45 years ago.When Aitrain was built, nobody cared about the LIRR plan. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Q4 on Mon Dec 2 13:52:50 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 2 13:02:03 2019. The article does not mention anything about funding such a LIRR connection, only mentions the Port Authority demanded it. There was no funding for such a connection. When construction began on the Air Train to JFK, there was no other readily available funding sources other than the Airport Usage Fee which as mentioned in other threads, could not be utilized for such a connection to existing LIRR or NYCT services.The Port Authority wanted a rail connection to JFK and figured this might be a good way to get it without paying for it. So they like others mentioned in the article, went to the trough to try to feed and get something for nothing or at least for a minimum amount. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Dec 2 14:20:50 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Q4 on Mon Dec 2 13:52:50 2019. At least the Airtrain functions pretty well. It's not as good as direct LIRR service would have been, but it's a decent substitute. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 2 15:34:27 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Q4 on Mon Dec 2 13:52:50 2019. The PANYNJ's end of the deal, as I understood it, was to assist in the Penn Station project. The LIRR funding could have come from MTA Cap Construction. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 16:30:22 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Dec 2 15:34:27 2019. That was all dead and buried by the mid-1970's. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Q4 on Mon Dec 2 16:55:43 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 16:30:22 2019. The MTA's 1968 Program for Action contained for the LIRR link but as Joe V. wrote,was buried by the mid 1970s and that was due by the fiscal crisis.When it resurfaced as part the Port Authority condition to assist in the Penn Station deal was they wanted a direct LIRR link to JFK. They did not plan on funding it and nor was there any money in the MTA Capital Program to do so. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Dec 3 14:50:44 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:43:19 2019. And then direct service came with electrification in 1933. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 3 19:19:29 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Mitch45 on Sun Dec 1 12:59:56 2019. While it’s true that we need a construction czar with power and gumptionNo, it is not true at all. What we need is the government's boot off the neck of the private sector; the days when there was not as big of a boot was what got us NYP in the first place. (That boot was big enough back then to prevent steam-powered railroads from crossing the Hudson and East Rivers, however.) |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 3 19:54:53 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 3 19:19:29 2019. The private sector is what ripped out old Penn Station and nearly Grand Central. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 3 20:47:06 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 3 19:54:53 2019. That was the public sector again. No forced "competition" from the road-based mode on top of excessive taxation and regulation, then the PRR would not have had their arm twisted to sell the air rights to NYP to a pay-to-play developer.To be sure, no public sector entity would ever or could ever produce anything like NYP. Look at what they're spending on things like ESA, FCOL. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 3 20:56:52 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:43:19 2019. Jersey commuters were expected to keep going to Jersey City or taking H&M (PATH), which is why their Newark terminal was moved from Park Place (NJPAC) to Newark PennTook 25 years to come up with the Newark connection, so there's a bit of a hole in that theory. And most "Jersey commuters" were headed downtown anyway back then, so what would have been the point of sending them to midtown? If not for NYC and their steam bans, Penn Station would have been located around Chambers Street instead, with the LIRR possibly going there too from the Atlantic Avenue line. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 3 21:11:01 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 3 20:56:52 2019. There is no “steam ban” and there was not one when Penn Station was built. You are far gone, but other people might read your posts and believe your lies. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 3 21:29:56 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by ro_jo on Mon Dec 2 10:30:49 2019. The original Penn Sta was built with private PRR funds. How was the government involved? |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Dec 3 21:53:33 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 3 21:11:01 2019. Joe Brennan is usually reliable, except on April Fool's Day when he has a photo editor available.http://www.columbia.edu/~brennan/abandoned/steam-laws.html |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 3 22:27:20 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Dec 3 21:53:33 2019. That was my source for dispelling the myth. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 01:10:45 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Dec 3 21:29:56 2019. permits, inspections, right to demap 32nd St, demolitions of existing buildings. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 02:53:12 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 3 21:11:01 2019. Repeating a lie doesn't make it true, other #37. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 02:53:59 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Dec 3 21:53:33 2019. pwn3d. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 02:59:05 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 3 22:27:20 2019. LOL, but no myth was dispelled. Just admit you got pwn3d.There's also this, published by the Transit Museum. Go ahead and try and "correct" them, lol. I doubt the Transit Museum is going to regard you as a reliable source, lol. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 03:09:09 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 01:10:45 2019. That's not government control and funding of the design, construction and ownership thereof. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Dec 4 11:26:23 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Dec 3 21:11:01 2019. Whether there literally was a ban on steam engines or not, surely by 1915 no one would have dared propose a new rail route in midtown or downtown Manhattan, whether underground or above ground, that wasn't electrified? |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 11:36:42 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by AlM on Wed Dec 4 11:26:23 2019. Whether there literally was a ban on steam engines or notThere was. Otherwise GCT would have been a lot further south than its current location, and the CNJ, B&O, RDG LIRR, PRR, NYNH&H DL&W, NYLE&W, NYSW, NYO&W and NYC/WSRR could/would have crossed the Hudson and East Rivers on bridges. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Dec 4 11:39:36 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Joe V on Mon Dec 2 12:07:45 2019. And those would have gotten more difficult over time because of how regulations changed. It's why 1 Times square is basically a giant billboard now and not what it once was. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Dec 4 11:49:01 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Dec 3 20:47:06 2019. And if Penn Station had been kept, it likely becomes a case of "be careful what you wish for" as the Knicks and Rangers likely are wooed by Sonny Werblin to a new building in The Meadowlands that eventually was built for the Nets but opens with the rest of the complex in 1976 instead of '81. Penn Station is likely blamed for that by many if that did happen (as the old MSG was already obsolete by 1968 and even if renovated at the time probably is again by the early '70s). |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 13:31:30 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Dec 4 11:49:01 2019. pardon me for veering off rail, but. professional sports franchises in general operate as extortionists; time and again demanding that the public underwrite their stadia, arenas, under threat of moving to some other town/city more gullible, because they have huge anti-trust loopholes. In my view, the ONLY legitmate pro sports franchise is the socialist Green Bay Packers--peoples' owned through the city of Green Bay.As to PRR being in deep red ink, yes, both because of taxpayer subsidized trucking competition AND internal incompetence. The debacle of railroading in the US was caused by many dumb maneuvers. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 13:59:14 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Dec 4 11:49:01 2019. So what? Maybe that would have been better for NYC anyhow.When MSG has rock concerts, the drunken fans tear out the seats. Judas Priest got banned from there in 1984 because of that. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:02:46 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 02:59:05 2019. I regard Mr. Brennan as a more reliable source.The West Side Line (predecessor to High Line) used steam south of 42nd until the 1930s despite any supposed ban. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Dec 4 14:03:35 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 02:53:59 2019. The well-researched article is in agreement with my claim, and is the source thereof. |
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Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Dec 4 14:05:10 2019, in response to Re: Why NY Penn Station still sucks, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 4 13:31:30 2019. professional sports franchises in general operate as extortionists; time and again demanding that the public underwrite their stadia, arenas, under threat of moving to some other town/city more gullible, because they have huge anti-trust loopholes. In my view, the ONLY legitmate pro sports franchise is the socialist Green Bay Packers--peoples' owned through the city of Green BayLOL, you go after sports franchises for acting socialistic and then praise the Packers for doing the same thing and basically being a pioneer of same. |
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