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| MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system (1529234) | |
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MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 6 07:05:13 2019 Written by Bill Wilson, Editor-in-Chief The feelings were electric. The Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority’s (MBTA) Fiscal and Management Control Board used one unanimous vote to clear the way for the electrification of the state’s commuter rail system. The move will create better service to many communities in the state. In a second unanimous vote the board decided the Newburyport/Rockport line is best suited for the change and will be worked on first. The Newburyport/Rockport line connects Lynn, Revere, Chelsea and Everett to the city of Boston. The Fairmont line in Boston and the Providence/Stoughton line also will be top priorities. The cost of upgrading the system is yet to be determined, but according to the MBTA’s 2040 Commuter Rail Vision, two alternatives for electrification would cost between $10.6 billion and $28.9 billion. Three pilot programs would cost $1.5 billion. MBTA has not identified funding sources for the project. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Nov 7 15:23:58 2019, in response to MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 6 07:05:13 2019. That's great. I am 100% in favor of electrification. I wish the MTA would electrify the entire Hudson and Harlem lines as well.But without even IDENTIFYING a funding source, this "project" will go nowhere. Literally. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Nov 7 17:03:45 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Nov 7 15:23:58 2019. It seems that these days the state of the art for electrifying commuter RRs is hi voltage overhead catenary wire rather than 3rd rail so if the entire Harlem and Hudson lines within M/N territory were to be electrified it would probably have to be done with the existing type of 3rd rail. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 7 18:00:39 2019, in response to MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Nov 6 07:05:13 2019. Yeah . . . the Attleborough/Providence Line has been electrified for how long and no electric MBTA trains on it?And why as high as $725 million per mile, eh? That's what, eighteen times more per mile than it costs to build an average (brand-new!) high-speed railroad, isn't it? |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Nov 7 18:11:41 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Nov 7 15:23:58 2019. I wish the MTA would electrify the entire Hudson and Harlem lines as wellNice pipe dream. Just how can you justify electrification to Wassaic, though? Chatham perhaps, but the MTA's not going that far north nor are they rebuilding the dug-up railroad that's now a rail trail AFAIK. You were aware (I hope) that the MTA did electrify to Southeast from White Plains? They're all pooped out with building new third rail after that and Ronkonkoma. Forget about the MTA even electrifying to Poughkeepsie. Three trains per hour during rush (and four at most), plus one train per hour off-peak, does not justify that. But without even IDENTIFYING a funding source, this "project" will go nowhere. Literally Now that is true. Especially with their ridiculously-high cost estimates. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Nov 8 03:25:22 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Thu Nov 7 17:03:45 2019. *It seems that these days the state of the art for electrifying commuter RRs is hi voltage overhead catenary wire*It's been state of the art since the 1930s. :-) |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Nov 8 07:14:44 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Thu Nov 7 17:03:45 2019. Yes, considering that the greatest portion of the Harlem Line and maybe ~50% of the Hudson Line are already electrified with 3rd rail, it would make the most sense to continue with it, even if that's not how it would be done today if starting from scratch.But back to Main's main point- MBTA seems to have no idea whatsoever where they'll get the money to electrify their commuter lines. Without locked-in funding, nothing can happen. So all their "approvals" at this point mean bupkus. It's not so much approval as pleading "we really want to do this". And again, I agree- commuter lines SHOULD be electrified. It's just that MBTA has no way to do it right now. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 8 07:17:09 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Nov 8 07:14:44 2019. commuter lines SHOULD be electrifiedIt's a mistake to think in terms of "commuter lines". And not all passenger lines ought to be electrified. Remember that the first electrification schemes included freight operations, too, making them viable beyond peak passenger service. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 8 07:18:44 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Thu Nov 7 17:03:45 2019. Third rail requires far more infrastructure than overhead catenary wire. Three to four trains per hour during rush and one train per hour off-peak won't justify any kind of electrification. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Nov 8 12:16:56 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 8 07:17:09 2019. given that the Class 1s have abandonned many "alternate routes" to concentrate tonnage on the favored mainlines the volume should in many cases justify electrification. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Nov 8 22:16:41 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Thu Nov 7 17:03:45 2019. The Hudson Line would benefit from catenary, particularly if NYS decides to electrify the entire line from Penn to Albany (so Amtrak can use ACS64s rather than some new not-yet-invented dual mode). 22 miles of double electrification is nothing compared to the other 120 miles.Metro North could buy some green striped M8s for the Hudson line if they want to replace dual mode service with EMUs. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by DutchRailnut on Fri Nov 8 22:20:25 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Nov 8 22:16:41 2019. post is to fucking stupid to respond too. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Nov 8 23:32:50 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by DutchRailnut on Fri Nov 8 22:20:25 2019. Only someone too fucking stupid to come up with a counterargument would say that. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 8 23:47:06 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Nov 8 22:16:41 2019. The Hudson Line would benefit from catenary, particularly if NYS decides to electrify the entire line from Penn to AlbanyHilarious. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 8 23:48:10 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Nov 8 12:16:56 2019. Given that the state of Class 1 railroads is due to re-regulation by leftist politicians in both parties, that is an artifice of the federal government. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Nov 8 23:53:47 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 8 23:47:06 2019. It's been studied. Might not happen for 20 years, or Cuomo on his 5th term gets a bug up his butt about it and pushes it through like he did LIRR 3rd track and LGA airtrain. He'll tout how he's being green. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 00:28:22 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by DutchRailnut on Fri Nov 8 22:20:25 2019. However, you DID respond.Negatively,but a response is a response. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 00:41:50 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Nov 8 23:48:10 2019. Please with the bullshit,ok?You keep singing the SAME fucking song...yet the Evidence of it is lacking w hook. Bring the Proof, not the propaganda..or You are just blowing noxious gas out of your ass. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Nov 9 17:15:38 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Nov 8 22:16:41 2019. Even if MTA and/or Amtrak did opt for catenary, I doubt it would replace the existing 3rd rail but rather just install catenary where no electrification presently exists. That would mean that all future rolling stock would have to be both 3rd rail and catenary capable like the M-8s. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Nov 9 17:25:23 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Sat Nov 9 17:15:38 2019. still an improvement over the diesels. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 9 19:27:02 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Sat Nov 9 17:15:38 2019. So you're saying that Amtrak will refit ACS-64s for third rail if they ever electrified to |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 9 19:27:32 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Nov 9 17:25:23 2019. LOL! By what measure? |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 10 19:00:15 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Sat Nov 9 17:15:38 2019. I don't think they'd replace, I think they'd double-electrify. It's only 22 miles of overlap, and even then only 3 of the 4 tracks are electrified right now. Metro-North will always have 3rd rail only equipment for the Harlem line, and Amtrak is exclusively overhead except for the tiny portion of 3rd rail running through Penn for Empire Corridor service. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Nov 10 19:22:12 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 10 19:00:15 2019. Agreed. MNRR New Haven equipment has a significant cost premium over Harlem equipment. Cheaper to double electrify Spuyten Duyvil to Croton. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 10 19:23:57 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 10 19:00:15 2019. I think they'd double-electrifyYou have a very, very overactive imagination. Never mind no consideration for justification of double infrastructure, nor the expense of maintaining it. What makes you think that clearances on the Hudson Line are compatible with high-voltage overhead wires anyhow? |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 10 19:25:24 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Nov 8 23:53:47 2019. Sure it's been "studied", but not by those that would be funding it.Cuomo does not care about such things. If you think that lefties are serious about being so-called "green", look at Obama and what he funded for eight years and it wasn't rail, but lots of highways. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Nov 10 19:40:40 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 10 19:23:57 2019. What makes you think that clearances on the Hudson Line are compatible with high-voltage overhead wires anyhow?Of course this whole thing is absurdly speculative, like many threads here. But why shouldn't the clearances suffice? No reason for ultra-low bridges. Maybe the Breakneck Ridge Tunnel might be a problem. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 10 19:54:09 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 10 19:23:57 2019. So there's a few tunnels that will need enlarging (or the tops popped off). If NYS High Speed rail is ever going to happen, solving a handful of clearance issues is peanuts compared to the alternative (an entirely new ROW through the most affluent and built up parts of the state).The biggest issue I thought of was freight clearance with wire through some of these areas. But, the high platforms, presence of third rail, and existing tunnels already limit the size and type of freight cars that can go through. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Nov 10 20:04:21 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 10 19:54:09 2019. But, the high platforms, presence of third rail, and existing tunnels already limit the size and type of freight cars that can go through.The Hudson Line ROW is wide. Sooner or later it really ought to be made usable for fast freight service from LI and Queens to the rest of the country, and the space is there to do it. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 11 00:53:57 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 9 19:27:02 2019. If they don’t choose to operate all diesel, they may have no choice. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Nov 11 05:04:09 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by randyo on Mon Nov 11 00:53:57 2019. Why would they choose against diesel?NY State sure will never electrify in any form past Croton-Harmon; they already de-electrified to Croton North and one of the express tracks partway south. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 11 12:01:25 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 10 19:00:15 2019. PS. Google flow batteries.I think by 2030 there will be battery operated locomotives with the modern equivalent of a coal car carrying the electrolyte. Flow batteries would work a lot better for a locomotive than for a truck or a passenger car, because space is not at such a premium - the electrolyte can't store anywhere near the energy per unit volume that diesel fuel or gasoline can. |
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Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Nov 11 14:59:02 2019, in response to Re: MBTA approves massive electrification project that will improve regional rail system, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Nov 10 19:25:24 2019. When are you going to stop lying?Is this for Your benefit,or the other right Wingers who actually believe your Russian backed Propaganda? |
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