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| Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. (1521085) | |
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| (1521089) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Aug 13 21:00:11 2019, in response to Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 13 20:27:46 2019. I imagine that somewhere are cinderblock walls with doors. |
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| (1521091) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Aug 13 21:42:55 2019, in response to Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 13 20:27:46 2019. There would need to be some access so the tunnel could be inspected periodically, wouldn't there? |
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(Sponsored) |
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| (1521147) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 14 11:31:20 2019, in response to Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 13 20:27:46 2019. Robert Moses would be spinning in his grave if he knew what happened to the station he used to try to block the westward expansion of the IRT line. |
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| (1521151) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 11:37:24 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 14 11:31:20 2019. Robert Moses? Sounds made up. |
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| (1521170) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 13:52:46 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 14 11:31:20 2019. Robert Moses had nothing at all to do with that.If anyone had a hand in putting that station where it was, it was John Hylan, who was Mayor of NYC from 1918 to 1925. The legend is that when he was a young man, he planned to become an attorney and to put himself through school, he was a motorman on the BRT. Apparently one day he was studying a law book when he took a turn on the Fulton Street elevated too quickly, nearly striking a BRT superintendent. Hylan was chewed out and fired. The legend goes that Hylan was so angry about this that he held a grudge against the BRT and IRT for the rest of his life. It was Hylan who proposed that the City build its own subway system, i.e., a system that the City would operate independently and not lease out to a private company, such as the IRT and the BRT. That system was built and opened in 1932 as the "Independent Subway System", or IND. The legend further states that when Hylan realized that the 8th Avenue branch of the IND system would pass above the end of the IRT Corona line at Times Square, he insisted that the City construct a lower level station at 8th Avenue/42nd Street station. This station would run perpendicularly to the end of the IRT tunnel west of Times Square and would effectively block the IRT's ability to extend the line further west. The plan worked perfectly, as the line remained cut off for over 75 years after that. There are photos of the tunnel extension work on the IRT line in connection with the Hudson Yards project. The 42nd Street lower level platform walls really were right up against the end of the tunnel. |
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| (1521174) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 14:05:54 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 13:52:46 2019. Awful lot of assumptions in that post. |
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| (1521203) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 14 16:56:09 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 11:37:24 2019. I agree. I doubt that Moses would have done anything to even remotely benefit any subway line regardless of the reason. Not only that but if history serves me correctly, the IND was planned before Moses or even his mentor Laguardia came to power. |
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| (1521206) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 17:04:46 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 14:05:54 2019. Such as? |
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| (1521207) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 17:11:01 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 17:04:46 2019. That John Hylan was personally responsible, and pretty much everything relating to Hylan in your post other than your restating of the famous legend (which I think is true, although maybe the details are embellished) and that he spearheaded the formation of the IND.There is no evidence that Hylan was personally involved in the engineering of the 8th Avenue line. Nor is it a certainty that the station was purposely built to block the IRT, although it could have been. According to nycsubway.org, Hylan's personal proposal called for a 3 track subway in the area! And a first avenue subway. It's likely that the professionals took over after that. |
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| (1521213) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 14 18:25:14 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 17:11:01 2019. John Hylan planted the seed and the planners took over from there. |
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| (1521216) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 19:03:49 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by randyo on Wed Aug 14 16:56:09 2019. True. Construction began in 1925. |
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| (1521222) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 19:31:55 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 17:11:01 2019. I said it was a legend. Read the post carefully. |
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| (1521227) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 20:14:20 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 19:31:55 2019. You said the part about Hylan having a grudge against the BRT was a legend. Everything else you said about Hylan having a personal hand in 42 LL sounds made up. |
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| (1521228) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Aug 14 20:23:40 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 14 11:31:20 2019. Robert Moses? Nah |
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| (1521229) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Aug 14 20:25:46 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 13:52:46 2019. Link? It would be interesting to see |
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| (1521250) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by gbs on Thu Aug 15 01:34:35 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 13:52:46 2019. There are photos of the tunnel extension work on the IRT I've always wanted to see those photos. Are they available somewhere? I was hoping that when they built the #7 extension through that lower level, they left open the walls where they intersected and put windows there so we could look in as we passed through. |
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| (1521262) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 15 09:56:35 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 20:14:20 2019. Hylan did hold a grudge against the BRT. He was a locomotive engineer on a Ridgewood train coming from the BERR terminal beside the Brooklyn Bridge. He took the curve at Navy Street onto the Myrtle. A superintendent was opening the door of the tower just as Hylan rounded the (sharp) curve and was knocked down. When Hylan arrived at Ridgewood he was summarily fired.Most of this detail comes from Hylan's [ghosted] autobiography. He talked about it because the firing was brought up in the press after the Malbone Street wreck, when Hylan used his position of Mayor to sit as magistrate to pillory the BRT. In the book he jokes that the super was an old man and too slow to avoid the train, and that it was really the "victim's" fault. As to the law book, that's apparently a myth. He was on his way to passing the bar at the time, so that undoubtedly cushioned the blow of his firing, because he soon began work as an attorney |
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| (1521263) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 15 10:08:46 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 15 09:56:35 2019. I took the trouble to look at my notes on Hylan. I have that it was the Towerman that was exiting the Navy Street Tower, that Hylan stopped in time and no was hurt.Still, he was called into the office the next day (not at Ridgewood) and then was summarily fired. Up to that point he had a perfect record with the company, from trackworker to eventually get the prestigious job of engineer. Some accounts say he was a motorman but this predated electric, the date of the accident was apparently February 1897l |
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| (1521264) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Aug 15 10:25:48 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 15 09:56:35 2019. Hylan did hold a grudge against the BRT. He was a locomotive engineer on a Ridgewood train coming from the BERR terminal beside the Brooklyn Bridge. He took the curve at Navy Street onto the Myrtle. A superintendent was opening the door of the tower just as Hylan rounded the (sharp) curve and was knocked down. When Hylan arrived at Ridgewood he was summarily fired.I do not disagree with this as the truth of this is well documented. Thanks, however, for clarifying that the "law book" story was fake because that does sound made up. |
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| (1521268) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Aug 15 10:40:00 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Mitch45 on Wed Aug 14 13:52:46 2019. Of course, the IRT could have prevented that by having the then-Corona line go all the way to 12th Avenue OR perhaps go to say 10th Avenue and go downtown from there on 10th to 14th, turn east and from there connect to say the 7th Avenue line south of say Sheridan Square. |
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| (1521269) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Aug 15 10:43:29 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Aug 15 10:40:00 2019. LOL! |
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| (1521270) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Thu Aug 15 10:44:39 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Aug 15 10:40:00 2019. Of course! |
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| (1521283) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 15 15:30:12 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Aug 14 19:03:49 2019. Sometime 1920-22, a NYT article included a map of the entire modern* IND network (or almost)** as it was constructed at the end of 1936.****modern, as opposed to the numerous versions of subway expansion plans put forth from 1900- forward (for example by the RPA or Rapid Transit Commission) which might have showed some of what became modern IND routes (8th ave, 6th ave, Fulton St. Bklyn, etc.) among many other routes these plans incouded throughout Manhattn, Bkyln, Bnx. & Qns. ** "or almost" - I looked this up in 1990 or 91 (after asking about it at that Subway History Conference), and so don't remember specific exceptions, or details.' ***this map may have included the 6th ave line as well, again, I don't reemember |
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| (1521284) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 15 15:30:59 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 15 15:30:12 2019. This Times article may have been about the Board of Transportation. |
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| (1521285) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 15 15:38:52 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by gbs on Thu Aug 15 01:34:35 2019. there are photos that I remember seeing on nycsubway.org. Also, photos there (IIRC) of a remaining segment of the IND lower level - tracks removed, and looking along the platform a "bulkhead" wall separating it from the new #7 tunnel |
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| (1521289) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 15 16:53:26 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 15 10:08:46 2019. I always read that it was a trainmaster and not a supt or Tw/M. In either case, it was some sort of a supervisor/manager. Another version had it that the trainmaster was riding the train and got thrown off his seat when the train took a curve too fast. |
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| (1521299) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Aug 15 18:03:26 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by randyo on Thu Aug 15 16:53:26 2019. That last is entirely new to me. |
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| (1521417) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Aug 16 21:09:39 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by gbs on Thu Aug 15 01:34:35 2019. One picture is here: https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?95438. The caption suggests that the new #7 line went through the "unused sub-sub basement" of the Port Authority Bus Terminal. I wonder if that is an additional clue to the reason for building the lower level of 8 Ave/42 St; perhaps the Port Authority had plans that never came to fruition (like the freight tunnel it was chartered to build) that the lower level would have helped serve. |
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| (1521418) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Aug 16 21:29:33 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Aug 16 21:09:39 2019. Perhaps a place to stage put-ins in the AM rush, having deadheaded from Queens or upper Manhattan to handle LIRR passengers at 34th onto an empty train. Good way to poach business off the West Side IRT. |
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| (1521471) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 17 16:32:05 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Joe V on Fri Aug 16 21:29:33 2019. Trains from upper Manhattan couldn’t access the lower level. |
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| (1521473) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 17 16:40:07 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by randyo on Sat Aug 17 16:32:05 2019. Well then just Queens. At the time, the only rush hour 8th Avenue local was the CC (A & E went express). CC was coming all the way from Bedford Park. So maybe lower level was a place to stash a gap train. |
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| (1521487) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 17 21:07:04 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 17 16:40:07 2019. The original function of the lower level platform at 42nd/8th was to allow downtown "E" train riders from Queens to transfer to uptown "A, "AA", or "CC" trains. There had been a stairway and passageway from the north end of the lower level platform to the south end of the main northbound platform. |
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| (1521495) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Aug 18 02:09:30 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 17 21:07:04 2019. This explanation makes sense, however I've never read about it, or heard it mentioned before. Was this platform's function ever mentioned in any newspaper articles at the time?Did the downtown E use ever use this lower level platform either exclusively or only during rush hours back in the early days (1933-39)? I've never heard of any kind of E train service to this platform either. Thanks for any info you or others can provide. |
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Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 18 06:18:50 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 17 21:07:04 2019. If they wanted to go uptown, why couldn't they transfer at 53rd/7th to a "D" train, once the 6th Avenue subway was built ? |
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| (1521518) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Aug 18 09:11:04 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Express Rider on Sun Aug 18 02:09:30 2019. Did the downtown E use ever use this lower level platform either exclusively or only during rush hours back in the early days (1933-39)? I've never heard of any kind of E train service to this platform either. Beginning about the time of the opening of the Chrystie Street Line in November 1967 "E" trains would use the lower level platform at 42 Street - 8 Avenue during the rush hours. This practice was discontinued after the PM Rush on April 14, 1975. Route "S" Aqueduct Specials had been using the lower level since about 1959 and continued to do so until 1981 when that service was discontinued. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1521532) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Sun Aug 18 10:34:12 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 18 06:18:50 2019. If they wanted to go uptown, why couldn't they transfer at 53rd/7th to a "D" train, once the 6th Avenue subway was built ?They couldn't very well do that in 1932, could they? |
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| (1521536) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 18 11:01:37 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 17 21:07:04 2019. That explanation doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't it have been easier just to reconfigure the mezzanine above? |
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| (1521538) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 18 11:35:29 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 18 11:01:37 2019. Bear in mind that the main station at 42nd/8th has offset platforms. The mezzanine, as built, goes from 40th to 44th Streets. Only southbound "E" trains from Queens could use the lower level. There were also no crossovers at 50th St for southbound "E" train riders, wishing to head north on the "AA" or "CC". The IND was overbuilt, for sure! |
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| (1521540) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 18 11:38:13 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 18 06:18:50 2019. The 6th Ave subway opened 8 years after the 8th Ave lines were built! |
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| (1521548) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by R30A on Sun Aug 18 12:20:25 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 18 11:38:13 2019. Yes, but 42/8 lower opened after 6th ave did. |
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| (1521587) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 18 19:51:49 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 18 11:38:13 2019. So ? You don't got through the huge expense of building a uni-directional station on a lower level just to get them by 8 years. |
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| (1521588) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 18 19:52:01 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 18 11:38:13 2019. So ? You don't got through the huge expense of building a uni-directional station on a lower level just to get them by 8 years. |
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| (1521590) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Sun Aug 18 20:18:40 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 18 19:52:01 2019. Before the fare control at 42/8Av was reconfigured, there was no free transfer at the mezzanine level between the uptown and downtown platforms.Because the two platforms are offset, the only point at which they overlapped was at the extreme north end of the downtown and the extreme south end of the uptown platforms. The sole in-fare connection between them was the stairs to the lower level platform from either one. And it was a hassle to use. The platforms at 42 Street are notably wide. It would seem planners expected very high volume ridership there. The idea of a separate lower level platform for downtown E trains might have made sense if they were anticipating a lot of Queens riders getting off there. In the 1920s when this line was planned, the West 30s and low 40s were the heart of the garment district, one of the biggest industries in the city. It turned out to have been another example of the IND's overbuilding, as I do not think the platform was ever in regular rush-hour service except for a few years in the late 60s and early 70s. |
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| (1521596) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 18 21:25:15 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 18 11:35:29 2019. I know about the offset platforms, but the offset wasn't so great that the mezzanines for each side were completely separate. Reconfiguring the fare control areas so that people could transfer between uptown and downtown should have been done decades before it actually happened, if not designed that way in the beginning. |
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| (1521603) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 18 21:51:45 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by randyo on Sat Aug 17 16:32:05 2019. They could back in the 1940s and 1950s. I remember there were full scissors crossovers between both the S/B local and express tracks and the ramp track used by the E. |
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| (1521606) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by ro_jo on Sun Aug 18 22:29:45 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 17 21:07:04 2019. I always thought that when they extended the 7 west, they should have created an additional east-west passage from the "lower level" of the 8av station straight east to the west end of the 7 platform. It could stay at roughly the same depth as the 7 tunnels for its entire length.Not only would it help alleviate the crowds in the current passage, but it would allow for wheelchair access to the rest of the station complex if they added a ramp from the lower level to the upper at 8av. The current tunnel is too steep for ADA. Even if it only connected to the "Downtown" platform it would be mighty helpful! -Rob |
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| (1521607) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Aug 18 22:30:03 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by qveensboro_plaza on Sun Aug 18 20:18:40 2019. When that underpass was in use to transfer between uptown and downtown trains, it was fenced off from the rest of the lower-level platform. Maybe that wasn't the original plan, as the fence looked very improvised, not being anchored at the top in any way. Probably the fence went up when the lower platform opened for the premium-fare Aqueduct Specials. They could certainly have built just an underpass without a lower platform if they had wanted to. |
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| (1521623) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 19 06:51:25 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by qveensboro_plaza on Sun Aug 18 20:18:40 2019. Since this was a uni-directional platform, how was one supposed to to the the reverse trip - from CPW to Queens ? |
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| (1521624) | |
Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave. |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 19 06:52:52 2019, in response to Re: Lower Level platform 42nd & 8th Ave., posted by ro_jo on Sun Aug 18 22:29:45 2019. Which #7 platform ? Times Square ? |
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