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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 28 11:29:20 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 10:49:53 2018. Don't know. But some had visible corrosion after they were rebuilt. |
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| (1497689) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 28 11:30:38 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 10:52:31 2018. Oh yes. They tried doing it solo, as they were thinking of running one train to Port Jeff to have some token Empire service to long Island. It was down to 4 MPH in the East River tunnel. That was the end of that. |
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| (1497690) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Dec 28 11:53:25 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 28 11:30:38 2018. there is bit more to that story , some people were pushing for Amtrak service to be extended to Long Island, Amtrak was not sure the Turbo liners could safely run the east river tunnels and get out if a stop was made and with one power car not having third rail mode because of failure. (each power car only has one traction motor coupled to auxiliary input shaft of hydraulic transmission) on test run the train did get out of tunnel despite very low speed, until one person said what about weight of passengers ???? as train was empty for test run. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 28 13:06:37 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Dec 28 08:43:46 2018. New subway cars cost so much money there is no way NYCT will retire the NTT's so soon. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 13:16:05 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Dec 28 13:06:37 2018. But if they can't fix or replace critical electronic gear, they may not have a choice. |
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| (1497704) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Fri Dec 28 13:17:59 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Dec 28 10:15:29 2018. NORAC, you mean.NORAC on Wikipedia |
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| (1497708) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 13:44:17 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Dec 28 11:53:25 2018. My...image of Turboliners...as (somewhat) high performance trains... :-(On a related hypothetical question: If a couple (or more!) of Empire Service trains could be extended to Long Island, where would they go? And which trains? Personally, I would think 1 or 2 Niagara Falls train going to Montauk or Ronkonkoma would be interesting, but an Albany train would probably be the most likely useful choice. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Dec 28 14:39:27 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 13:16:05 2018. I suppose it could go either way. Maybe they'd be a large enough customer for someone to do a custom order.Like maybe I could get an electronic shop on Canal Street to fix my 286 PC....if I paid them enough... |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 28 14:43:57 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Dec 28 14:39:27 2018. a start would be automatic voiding of patents of anything no longer available. |
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| (1497721) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 28 15:09:25 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 13:44:17 2018. They were thinking of one train to Port Jefferson, which lacks reverse peak service. It would run AM west, PM east.Montauk has too many single track issues for 57 miles. Ronkonkoma is too congested and the yard is chock full every night. Amtrak engines are not readily adaptable to LIRR signal system and ASC. Unique speed pulse codes and signal indications on each railroad that each RR's locos would not recognize. |
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| (1497724) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 15:20:34 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 13:44:17 2018. Well, there was that one anecdote about the Turbos hitting, what, over 150 on some test run? |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Dec 28 15:51:11 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Fri Dec 28 13:17:59 2018. he was watching Norad tracking Santa a bit to long :-) |
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| (1497740) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 17:12:23 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Fri Dec 28 13:17:59 2018. NORAD is so much more rad than NORAC. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 20:15:26 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 28 13:44:17 2018. I want some ALB-Jamaica trains so I have a 1 seat ride to/from AirTrain. Transferring from Amtrak to LIRR during either peak hour in either direction (even if travelling reverse-peak) sucks. They would have to be trains from ALB because a train to the airport delayed by nonsense in CSX/Canadian Pacific controlled tracks will not "fly". Headed back west they can go wherever since the delays would not effect flight connections.That said, with the new 2nd track to Ronkonkoma and the soon-to-exist 3rd track to Hicksville, I'd say Ronkonkoma would make the most sense (with an intermediate stop in Mineola or Hicksville). They should try converting the closer parts of that giant lot in Ronkonkoma to a parking garage first, though. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 28 20:49:56 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 20:15:26 2018. Agree about Alb-Jamaica to AirTrain. I,long ago also proposed Stamford-Jamaica over Hell Gate as a convenience for air travelers.The principle is clear; make more transit options available to give everyone more freedom to travel around. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 21:12:45 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 27 21:11:16 2018. At 750 volts they would need an additional 55 substations to pull that off. |
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| (1497759) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 28 21:17:12 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 27 21:11:16 2018. Too bad the tunnel ceilings are too low for catenary. |
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| (1497761) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 21:51:04 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 28 21:17:12 2018. IINM, the outer tunnels are too low only by about two feet, and the center tunnels by about one foot, and that's only in certain segments. Not insurmountable by excavation. |
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| (1497762) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 21:54:01 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 20:15:26 2018. I want some ALB-Jamaica trains so I have a 1 seat ride to/from AirTrainWell, I want a one-seat ride on both LIRR and the subway to the JFK terminals, how about that. So where are you going to turn Amtrak at Jamaica, for your pipe dream? And are the rooflines of the P32AC-DM okay for Jamaica station's platform shelters? |
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| (1497765) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 22:26:27 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 21:54:01 2018. Re:Genesis roofs: Yes.Amtrak would turn on the Belmont Park spur. Eastbound it is easy to get the Amtrak off the main even during rush hour. Westbound to return, I'd suggest not scheduling any during PM rush. |
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| (1497766) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 22:27:12 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 22:26:27 2018. Well, that's a non-starter. |
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| (1497770) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 23:48:19 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 28 14:43:57 2018. Patents are only for 14 years anyway. |
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| (1497771) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 23:55:54 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Diesel locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 23:48:19 2018. Sorry, 20 years. Not sure where I got 14 from. Still the earliest NTTs will be off that in a few years.The key is to secure manufacturer parts guarantees for anything that's custom. Kawasaki at least has shown willingness to work on the R142s (R188 contract). |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 29 00:36:27 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 21:51:04 2018. Well, if that were true, the ultimately smart thing would be making ALL of the electrification on the mainline RRs compatible, allowing multiple integrating route combionations. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:38:30 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 22:27:12 2018. Still have to modify Amtrak locos with new cab signal equipment to understand all LIRR speed code pulses and signal indications. LIRR and NEC are not identical. It only works between NYPS and Harold because it is a 60 MPH railroad with not many signal indications. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:41:05 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Dec 28 21:51:04 2018. If you are talking about Park Av tunnels, no you can't excavate any further. They have done that twice. Any more would undermine the stability of the walls. The floor is also directly on top of and crosswise over the 63rd Street Tunnel casing. |
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| (1497779) | |
Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 29 06:45:25 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:38:30 2018. How practical would it be to replace or add an LIRR locomotive at Penn? |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:47:43 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 22:26:27 2018. Amtrak Empire sets have some fairly quick equipment turns. You can't just leave them at Belmont Park for hours for LIRR rush hour to clear up. Niagara Falls and Albany equipment cycles do intersect in New York City,. i.e. One of the early southbound trains in the AM from Albany becomes train 281 to NFL. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:51:39 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 29 06:45:25 2018. Zero. Forget it. No time or space for that. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 29 08:56:58 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:41:05 2018. Not even on the tunnel floor? There's always a way. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 29 08:58:50 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 29 00:36:27 2018. That's not necessarily the "smart" thing. For some purposes, it's the most practical, I'll agree, but it leaves the public beholden to certain powers that can wax abusive. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:13:38 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:47:43 2018. I agree it would require schedule reworking and another set or two to accomplish. Also, there's no place to restock the train since it wouldn't be making it to Sunnyside, which would probably nix my initial idea that trains that came in from ALB could go back out to Niagara Falls or Rutland.None of these are insurmountable. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:16:08 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 06:38:30 2018. Since the P32ACDMs (and presumably whatever joint order replaces them) are captive to Empire Corridor operations, this isn't that big a lift either. Mod 18 locos. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Dec 29 10:21:12 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:13:38 2018. None of these are insurmountable.True, but where is the market? Maybe a tenth of the train's load? |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 29 10:23:49 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:16:08 2018. The Empire Service trains are paid for by NYSDOT. Very few obstacles are insurmountable if someone is willing to foot the bill. Would the extensions being discussed serve a large enough group of people, or provide enough of an economic boost to be considered worthwhile? If not, they are fun to talk about, but are non starters. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:39:20 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:16:08 2018. 18 is the bar minimum needed to run existing service. Start extending trains to LI, and they will not have enough. They are also spending a lot of money on locos they plan to junk in a few years. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:41:58 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:13:38 2018. Other than the Belmont wye, where else could the consist be turned ? I can't think of anywhere. Then you have limited your market to just Jamaica Station. With several hundred LIRR trains per day from NYPS, no one is going to sweat out Amtrak's token train. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:44:36 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 29 08:56:58 2018. The tunnel floor at 63rd is directly on top of the 63rd Street tunnel. There is nothing more to give there, unelss you want to bulge the ROW toward the the street, and raise it, along with all the building entrances and sidewalks. That is a show stopper right there, in addition to destabilizing the tunnel walls all along PArk Ave. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:45:09 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:39:20 2018. They are also NOT spending ... |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:56:00 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:39:20 2018. Definitely not the bare minimum, as they are (1) allowing them to go past Albany to Niagara Falls when an engine change will do, and (2) were able to maintain service while one was out for painting *and* three were never converted to the overrunning 3rd rail / nose hatch for the past summer (I believe those were 700, 711, 713, plus the one out for painting). |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:57:31 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 29 10:23:49 2018. Considering there's nothing resembling a decent international airport in the rest of the state, I'd say that this extension is more useful than even the light rail to LGA, and can be had at a fraction of the cost. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:59:37 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:56:00 2018. An engine change means more time, and another P42 to lease from Amtrak.They killed the Lake SHore Ltd south of Albany while messing around with nose doors and MARC cab cars. They are not going to be made any more available as they age and can't get parts. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Dec 29 11:03:52 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:57:31 2018. I'm not a big fan of the Airtrain to LGA and have long believed (despite neighborhood opposition) the Astoria line extension was the right idea. How many people would actually use the service, that won't use the service that already exists? |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 29 11:13:02 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:44:36 2018. Not impossible, i.e. presuming that the clearance at that segment is not sufficient; but isn't that area cut and cover rather than tunnel where the height restrictions are? And it wouldn't take a bulging, if really needed. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 11:14:12 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:41:58 2018. Spoken like someone who has never had to transfer in Penn with an international vacation's worth of luggage, which is what the majority of people using this service would be doing (domestic flying is easier from the local airports). Also, imagine how many people are transferring from Amtrak to LIRR to begin with, they will stay on just to avoid the mess of Penn Station and change at Jamaica, or even just to get to the eastern end of Queens and backtrack on the E or J. Penn Station is crowded with people, this provides a nice outlet to reduce the number of people in Penn. There's also a market for sketchy airport shuttles charging $50-100 to go from Albany to JFK; Amtrak will have no trouble getting people aboard their trains.A bit tongue in cheek here, but during summer racing season, Belmont Park would draw passengers as well :). Racing is enough that Amtrak adjusts the Ethan Allen schedule for summer Saturdays to run 6 hours later to insure that there's a train to take people back to NYC from Saratoga after the last race. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 29 11:14:45 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 29 10:41:58 2018. Maybe they ought to talk Amtrak into taking over service to Greenport and Montauk then. It's a further distance than Chicago to Milwaukee by several miles in each case. (Of course, the fare structure of LIRR would have to be adhered to.) |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 29 11:17:56 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 11:14:12 2018. Amtrak never served Albany directly, and going to the Airtrain is not serving JFK directly. Not a competitive advantage over the shuttles, which do. Besides, Amtrak can check baggage through to EWR at NYP. |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 29 11:28:19 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 28 20:15:26 2018. Airport?Are you out of your tree! FLY from albany and the heck with the train. GRRRrrr |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 29 11:30:17 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 28 20:49:56 2018. Nah... Stoopit.You cannot run enough trains to meet every plane. Not even one train an hour. Just take the train that is there and transfer in Manhattan and again in Queens. Best we can do. ROAR |
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Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 29 11:36:11 2018, in response to Re: Amtrak orders 75 new Siemens Charger locomotives for LD trains, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 29 10:57:31 2018. Rome Airport is certainly big enough... Just convince all international flights to operate out of Rome. It has been considered before. It is already an international airport, and with a little work it could be a hub. Most peeps going on international flights certainly do not need JFK.Try Minneapolis.. you can get anywhere in the world from there, except of course, Jamaica. ROAR |
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