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Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 11:17:13 2018 I'm not sure if the tracks are still in place since the reconstruction near Bway Jct, but if they are why not make the Z a full time line between Canarsie & Broad Street?That would eliminate the need for all the shuttle buses and williamsburg bridge lane closure issue. is the distance between the Lines that long? There is also the M @ Myrtle Wycoff. WHat do you guys think? |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Aug 10 12:22:17 2018, in response to Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 11:17:13 2018. No it wouldn’t. Canarsie is nowhere near Williamsburg and the part of the L line from Broadway Junction to Canarsie has the lowest ridership. Why would you run an extra service on the section of the line with the least ridership? And why Broad Street? |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Aug 10 12:45:42 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Aug 10 12:22:17 2018. And they used to actually run that route on the old (JJ) between Broad and Canarsie.If you rebuilt Atlantic Avenue to four tracks (and there is enough of the old structure in place to allow for such a rebuild), you could then have the (L) terminate at Atlantic Avenue while a new line replaces it full-time to Canarsie and maybe takes the old (JJ) route at all times for now, perhaps later if the Chrystie connection is connected to the SAS have such a line run via 2nd Avenue to (by then) 125/Lex (or hopefully by then 125/Broadway). |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 12:52:28 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Aug 10 12:22:17 2018. I was basically proposing replacing the L from Canarsie to Bedford with the Z from Canarsie to Broad. maybe even Have a new M from Continental to Canarsie and run the M shuttle to Metropolitan.my proposal closes down the entire L train. I just though it would make more sense to have a canarsie train reach Manhattan directly via the Broadway El and Williamsburg bridge. In Manhattan it can go down to Broad or up to Continental. if it goes to broad you maintain regular M service and a new regular Z service from Canarsie to Broad. Passengers could transfer to other trains @ Essex, Chambers & Fulton. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 10 13:25:18 2018, in response to Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 11:17:13 2018. I'm not sure I see the point. If you're planning on using this as a solution to the L shutdown, it won't work, since the outer end the L between Broadway Junction and Canarsie has fairly low ridership. The people boarding the L further in will end up piling onto the J/M/Z and shuttle buses. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 10 13:30:28 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 12:52:28 2018. I was basically proposing replacing the L from Canarsie to Bedford with the Z from Canarsie to Broad. maybe even Have a new M from Continental to Canarsie and run the M shuttle to Metropolitan.Wait, why would you make the M to Metropolitan a shuttle? I'd be surprised if that had substantially less ridership than the L east of Broadway Junction. my proposal closes down the entire L train. Why would you want to do that? O.o They only need* to close the tubes to Manhattan. There's rather a lot of Brooklyn you'd be cutting off. *OK, technically, with 7 years lead time, they could have dropped a new tunnel and then closed the old tunnels one at a time, but... MTA. I just though it would make more sense to have a canarsie train reach Manhattan directly via the Broadway El and Williamsburg bridge. The trouble is that the Canarsie train via Broadway would miss most of the L's ridership. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 10 13:50:30 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 12:52:28 2018. I was basically proposing replacing the L from Canarsie to Bedford with the Z from Canarsie to Broad.The Z only runs like, ten times a day, period. to provide full time Z to Canarsie service would require a massive cut in J service. as in 40% to 50% loss of TPH east of Broadway junction. maybe even Have a new M from Continental to Canarsie and run the M shuttle to Metropolitan. Sure, make me suffer more. I just got the M back to normal a few months ago. my proposal closes down the entire L train. Do you have a problem with Ridgewood? What did I ever do to you you're cutting off my rail connections to the rest of the city? No M beyond the shuttle, No L at all? How am I supposed to get to work? I just though it would make more sense to have a canarsie train reach Manhattan directly via the Broadway El and Williamsburg bridge. Have you been drinking Wallyhorse's Kool-Aid? How does that solve the problems of passengers who live between Broadway Junction and Bedford? In Manhattan it can go down to Broad or up to Continental. if it goes to broad you maintain regular M service and a new regular Z service from Canarsie to Broad. Passengers could transfer to other trains @ Essex, Chambers & Fulton. Still doesn't make life any easier for folks who can't get a subway train because you've shut the line down for no reason. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Aug 10 14:30:48 2018, in response to Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 11:17:13 2018. Its is still possible to run trains between Atlantic Avenue on the Canarsie Line and Eastern Parkway on the Broadway-Brooklyn Line. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:41:23 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Aug 10 14:30:48 2018. The problem is that it is no longer possible to turn trains at Atlantic so all trains would have to come from Canarsie. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Aug 10 16:05:47 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 12:52:28 2018. Not if it comes at the expense of L riders who board at the busier, closer-in stations who would have no in-system way of getting into Manhattan other than the M at Myrtle-Wyckoff or the G (followed by a transfer to another train).And closing down the entire L line would greatly inconvenience its intra-Brooklyn ridership, which should not be underestimated. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Aug 10 16:20:26 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Aug 10 16:05:47 2018. Yep. The only station east of Broadway on the L that has decent ridership is Canarsie itself. And the ridership west of Broadway, not including Myrtle and Lorimer (which are served by other trains) is way, way more. Those people need the L to get to the M, A/C/J/Z, or G. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Aug 10 16:25:25 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 12:52:28 2018. No.How do you propose dealing with all the displaced L riders between ENY and Bedford? They All cant hop on the J,M and Z . Better to keep it simple. Not to mention,since CBTC runs the show...how are you going to bypass the system,plus keep headways at a decent levels? |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Aug 10 17:33:40 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Nilet on Fri Aug 10 13:30:28 2018. I'm not "missing" Wallyhorse any more!The original poster is just another in a long line of "transit ideas" that discounts the needs of the riders at the local stations of a basic two-track all local line and to only consider how such a line could be track switched with another line. It is as if the past two years (and plenty of months) of discussions about the closure of the upcoming Manhattan L-train tunnel never happened. Did we: - Look at the ridership of the L train stations between Bedford Avenue and Broadway Junction? - Check - Look at the ridership of the L-train stations between Broadway Junction and Canarsie? - Check - Look at the ridership of the L-train Manhattan stations? - Check - Look at bus ridership patterns and nearby bus stops and routes at each of the stations between Bedford Avenue and Broadway Junction? - Check - Did we discuss how the J, M and Z trains would make all local station stops to aid L-train riders and persons transferring from affected bus routes? - Check - Did we discuss how "out of system" transfers would work? - Check - Did we discuss transfer station facility issues - especially the transfer between the L-train and G-train? - Check - Did we discuss the lengthening of the C-train as an aid to the travel experience? - Check - Did we go over, and over again - all manner of how using a single track operation between Manhattan and Brooklyn would not work for the L-train and its huge amount of riders? - Check - Did we go over, and over again about how the "simple ideas" that dis-respect the different needs of the almost 400,000 daily riders of the L-line turn out to be not good workable ideas. - Check and Check again. - Have we as a group looked over the huge variety of concerns over the closing of the 14th Street Tunnel project? Check and Check again. We done our homework. Mike |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 05:10:53 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by The Silence on Fri Aug 10 13:50:30 2018. Um, some of these ideas I would not even consider. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 05:14:43 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by AlM on Fri Aug 10 16:20:26 2018. Which is why as I would do it, I would rebuild Atlantic Avenue to four tracks, which would allow the (L) to use it to terminate there (and focus on the main portion of the Canarsie Line) while a new line (either a revival of the JJ to Broad or via 6th Avenue for now and later on if the SAS were to have a connection from the WIlly B via that) runs to Canarsie (late nights, both lines would run from Canarsie).Any such would have to wait until AFTER the (L) shutdown at the earliest, however. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 05:17:12 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:41:23 2018. Which is why I would have rebuilt Atlantic Avenue to four tracks independent of any ideas. That would allow at least SOME (L) trains to short-turn there (and if you also rebuilt the Snediker Avenue portion, six tracks that could include tracks for storage). There is enough of the old infrastructure still in place there to do it, |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Aug 11 06:03:23 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Aug 10 14:30:48 2018. Yes, the "jug handle" still exists, so occasionally during G.O.'s, they terminate shuttle trains from Canarsie on the J platform at Eastern Parkway and relay on the center track between Eastern Parkway and Chauncey St. Returning to Canarsie they pause briefly at the merge with the Canarsie track to change from manual control to CBTC. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 11 09:54:06 2018, in response to Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 11:17:13 2018. You posted this as if the MTA was doing that. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie? |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Aug 11 10:18:53 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 11 09:54:06 2018. ???why not make the Z a full time line between Canarsie & Broad Street? Nothing in that post suggests that this is the MTA plan. He is wonder why it wouldn't be the MTA plan, and various people explained to him why it would not be the MTA plan. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 11 10:22:31 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 05:17:12 2018. LOL! |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 11 12:09:34 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 05:14:43 2018. The idea of a train from Canarsie on Broadway to either Broad Street or up 6th Ave. would save overcrowding on the J platform at Bway Junction. Maybe every 3rd train during the shutdown. Riders could remain and then change and change for the F at Essex, or wait for a another J at Myrtle or Marcy to avoid the overcrowding at the rear of the J platform. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 11 12:19:14 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:41:23 2018. No the switch (I believe is still there) south of Atlantic Ave. While it used to allow a train on the inside of the S/B platform to switch to the Canarsie line, it now allows a train (Manhattan bound to terminate at Atlantic Ave. and the reverse direction and switch to the S/B track, or a S/B rain to terminate at Atlantic, fumigate, then proceed toward Sutter and switch back to the uptown track.As I previously had mentioned, the Canarsie reconstruction should only have been done south of Atlantic, the switching could have been left as is on the north side. N/B L trains could have used the outside of the now half destroyed center platforms allowing trains to terminate/start on the 2 tracks as they did previously, still withnthe Sneidiker trestle removed. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 11 12:45:54 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 11 12:09:34 2018. I think people from Canarsie will be more apt to take the A train to midtown than the J. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Aug 11 13:34:00 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 11 12:09:34 2018. L riders from Canarsie can change directly to the M at Myrtle. There's no way everyone can have a 1-seat ride to midtown, and it makes more sense to deny it to people getting on at Canarsie than to deny it to other groups. I would think 3 tph from Canarsie to 6 Ave makes sense, but that's probably too complicated. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 14:37:34 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by AlM on Sat Aug 11 13:34:00 2018. Well, my original idea for this was to transfer the (C) to Canarsie, but capacities make such impossible. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 11 15:06:24 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 11 12:19:14 2018. Even though the switch is still there, since there are only 2 tracks at Atlantic, it would require trains to turn on the mainline which is not operationally a good idea, even though it is done occasionally at 57/6. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Aug 11 16:47:20 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Aug 10 12:45:42 2018. IINM that connection was used only during rush hours in later years. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 15:33:53 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Aug 10 12:45:42 2018. The KK also used that connection. There were 3 KKs that departed The Canarsie Yd in the AM rush and went to 57 St. I never paid attention to the PM service but I imagine there were 3 KKs that returned to Canarsie in the PM rush to balance service. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 12 18:24:08 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 15:33:53 2018. AM and PM were never in symmetry on the Eastern Division.In the days of 14/15, QJ/JJ, and QJ/KK, there was skip-stop out of Jamaica with the Bway Brklyn Local in the AM, but only for a brief period in the PM with the QJ/KK. The concept didn't work. Throw in 6 months of the oddball RJ, which nobody knew when the hell it ran, there were no public timetables, and it was a mess. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 13 01:13:19 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 12 18:24:08 2018. Pre Chrystie, there was no PM skip stop service at all to Jamaica, but I do recall seeing PM Bway Bkln lcls going to Canarsie. The only reason I though there might have been some KKs going to Canarsie in the PM is because those trains would have to get there somehow in order to be in place for the next day’s rush hour and it would be easier to have the last 3 of them go directly to Canarsie rather than be transferred from Jamaica or rum light from Atlantic. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by alantrain on Mon Aug 13 09:53:38 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 10 14:41:23 2018. If there is enough equipment, how about a "K' from Chambers to Broadway Junction ( Middle track). Run it mornings and evenings That would help with the loads at Marcy and other stops ( for the displaced L train riders).Crazy, but maybe it could run express and stop only at Myrtle and Marcy. the object is to clear Marcy ( with its tight platform) of extra passengers.Passengers from Jamaica could change at BJ if they wanted a faster ride as the J would be a local from there. There were three services on Broadway back in the 40's and 50's and they ran okay so this should not be a problem. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Aug 13 09:58:32 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by alantrain on Mon Aug 13 09:53:38 2018. But remember that only 11% of Canarsie line riders head to lower Manhattan. And some of those will take the A/C, which could use an extra train or two. So most added service should go to midtown, not downtown. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by pelham Exp on Mon Aug 13 10:01:34 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by alantrain on Mon Aug 13 09:53:38 2018. B/c now you have Union Rules...Managers who are afraid to rock the boat and try things outside the box. Political Interference and the MTA's let the public be damned attitude. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Mon Aug 13 11:37:57 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by pelham Exp on Mon Aug 13 10:01:34 2018. What does union rules have to do with service changes? |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Aug 13 12:19:51 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by alantrain on Mon Aug 13 09:53:38 2018. Why create a subway line that only stops at Chambers Street, Canal Street, Bowery Street, Delancey Street, Marcy Avenue, Myrtle Avenue, and the lastly at Broadway Junction? That route will not be packed with riders, and could easily cause delays due to the track switch of trains.Mike |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by sloth on Mon Aug 13 12:48:11 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by FtGreeneG on Mon Aug 13 11:37:57 2018. Exactly!! On the big bad LIRR the affected crews would just get trimming rights, no big deal. I'm sure it would be about the same on the subway. The union hate here is pathetically funny. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 13 13:11:17 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by alantrain on Mon Aug 13 09:53:38 2018. What good is more trains from Chambers and Essex to ENY if most L train passengers go from midtown to a place west of ENY ? |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by alantrain on Mon Aug 13 18:48:58 2018, in response to Z to Canarsie, posted by rbseabeach on Fri Aug 10 11:17:13 2018. Go to Marcy Ave station in the morning and see why. With the additional riders from the L and good uptown transfers at Essex, Canal and Chambers, it makes a lot of sense.The old Broadway Brooklyn local did it but continued to Canarsie, which according to loads after BJ is not necessary beyond BJ. The M turrned at BJ for months and did fine. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Aug 13 19:31:38 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 12 15:33:53 2018. I'm willing to bet those JJ trains that ran to Rockaway Parkway were part of a similar arrangement. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 13 19:58:00 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by alantrain on Mon Aug 13 18:48:58 2018. Since the Bway Bklyn locals came off 42 years ago, lower Manhattan has lost half its jobs. The workforce has shifted uptown. That's why the Orange M is so successful and nobody misses the Brown M, whether off the Eastern or Southern Division. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 13 20:48:13 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Aug 13 19:31:38 2018. Most likely since the rush hour JJs were nothing but rebadged Bway Bkln Lcls. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Aug 13 23:17:19 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 13 19:58:00 2018. Excellent post. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 14 00:10:15 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 13 01:13:19 2018. I personally rode a KK to Canarsie during the pm rush from Myrtle Avenue.I remember this particular journey due to the fact my mom was heading to meet her sister out there for some fancy dinner arrangement I definitely did not want to attend. My aunt was the close talker..touchy feely huggy pinch your face type who over dramatized everything. 😧 That evening went about as expected 😣. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie? |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Tue Aug 14 14:47:49 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Aug 11 09:54:06 2018. I just basically choose the Z since it is a part time service. Then I looked at a map and saw that the L & JMZ were not too far away at certain locations.I then thought about another service close by going into Manhattan and not using the Canarsie Line tunnel. This how I came up with the idea. it has been already reported that the Willie B is going to be a big traffic nightmare since other private services will naturally start up. I posted it for the really knowledgeable rail fans to look at it and tell me what the drawbacks would be. THankyou to all, I learned a lot as usual. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie? |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Aug 14 21:14:27 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie?, posted by rbseabeach on Tue Aug 14 14:47:49 2018. The Z is half of the J service. Before it came to be in the late 1980s, there was a skip-stop "A/B" service on the J. it was confusing and generated lots of complaints from passengers who wound up on the wrong train. If the Z were turned into a different service, how would service to Jamaica be covered WITHOUT adding more TPH?Before MTA announced the final plan for the 14th St closure, they had said that Bedford would be closed as well to accommodate construction equipment and material. The likely scenario in that case would have been the L truncated to a shuttle between Canarsie & Myrtle. Then, AND ONLY THEN would a thru service between Canarsie & Manhattan be viable. I speculated such a service would be either extra M service to Forest Hills, or a separate line entirely going to 2nd Ave. Shutting down the whole line to play Phomer Phantasy Subway makes no sense. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie? |
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Posted by rbseabeach on Wed Aug 15 14:17:36 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie?, posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Aug 14 21:14:27 2018. ok Thank you for the information.I did not know of the A/B service on the J back then. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie? |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Aug 15 18:32:22 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Aug 15 14:17:36 2018. It was in the 1960's and early 1970's. Completely different skip-stop pattern than today. One train was the a Bway Bklyn Express (15, then QJ), the other the Bway Bklyn Local (14 then KK). There were severe load imbalance issues too. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 15 21:07:26 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie?, posted by rbseabeach on Wed Aug 15 14:17:36 2018. Look...You do what everyone else has done. You had fun with it...and thats it. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Aug 16 18:41:25 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 14:37:34 2018. Not to mention the C having to switch from the lower level to the upper level to get to the 8th Avenue Line. |
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Re: Z to Canarsie |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Thu Aug 16 18:47:09 2018, in response to Re: Z to Canarsie, posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 11 12:09:34 2018. It might not. Except for Rockaway Parkway, the stations south of Broadway Junction have significantly lower riders than the rest of the L line. You’ll have delays on both J and L service, with these trains slowly merging in and out at Broadway Junction. It’s not worth doing. |
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