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| WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode (1480464) | |
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| (1480464) | |
WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sat Jul 7 19:58:51 2018 One of the folks at Rail Transit OPS Group posted a pair video clips of a 6 car consist of 7k cars operating in automatic mode, bothcoming and going in the Virginia Square station. This could mean one or two things or both in the near future for WMATA land. Before you start asking, are you sure it was in automatic mode? The folks at Rail Transit OPS Group have tools that can decipher WMATA's API feed and moles within the agency. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1480469) | |
Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Fine, Howard, and Fine on Sat Jul 7 22:19:00 2018, in response to WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Jul 7 19:58:51 2018. Another good check it was in auto: it did a center stop. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Jul 7 22:51:20 2018, in response to WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Sand Box John on Sat Jul 7 19:58:51 2018. I think we'll see ATO before we see 6 car 7000 Series trains on a regular basis. Apparently there are all sorts of potential issues with shunting a disabled 7000 Series train in any configuration other than ABBAABBA.Do you know if Central has the ability to modify the speed limit for a given section of track on the fly and/or permit/disallow ATO on a given section of track? I ask because if so (or if this can be done easily enough), some of the concerns about returning to ATO can be worked out quite easily. As it is, you could also just have a "flagger" like in NYC who ensures trains enter work zones using manual control, but they operate in ATO outside of those areas. Also, I've heard absolutely nothing about a fix that would allow for trains to return to automatic door openings, but I think it would be good policy to allow 6 car trains in ATO to return to center berthing, while having manually operated trains stop at the far end of the platform. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 00:06:21 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat Jul 7 22:51:20 2018. I think we'll see ATO before we see 6 car 7000 Series trains on a regular basis.That's why I stated " one or two things". I happen to believe 7k 6 car consists are inevitable as there will not be enough cars to fill a peak service time sheet with all the available 7k cars running in 8 car consists. Apparently there are all sorts of potential issues with shunting a disabled 7000 Series train in any configuration other than ABBAABBA. As you probably know by now, WMATA has assembled and operated 8 car consisted in all of the possible configuration in revenue service. They have on at least one occasion, I am told, have had to dead head a bad order part of a train to Falls Church Yard from the hostler cab. Do you know if Central has the ability to modify the speed limit for a given section of track on the fly and/or permit/disallow ATO on a given section of track? I ask because if so (or if this can be done easily enough), some of the concerns about returning to ATO can be worked out quite easily. As it is, you could also just have a "flagger" like in NYC who ensures trains enter work zones using manual control, but they operate in ATO outside of those areas. To my knowledge yes. I would hazard a guess WMATA has created a list of procedures and checks that has to be run through before the execute button can be pushed making it somewhat impractical. A work around could be as simple as writing a catalog of pretested script that run through procedures and checks before executing the speed limit changes. Also, I've heard absolutely nothing about a fix that would allow for trains to return to automatic door openings, but I think it would be good policy to allow 6 car trains in ATO to return to center berthing, while having manually operated trains stop at the far end of the platform. There is one poster on redit.com that I believe is a WMATA employee with knowledge on such matters that says all of the fixes have been made related to over shooting, wrong side and or off the platform door openings and hardware upgrades related to the 06 22 2009 Fort Totten wreck. The switch could be thrown tomorrow to restore fully automatic operation, but hasn't because one or more of the suits that need to sign off the OK to thrown said switch is dealing with a severe case of CYA. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1480522) | |
Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 13:59:08 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 00:06:21 2018. I believe there are enough 2000s/3000s/6000s to make 6 car trains. Also, remember that they reduced the rush hour train requirement about 12 months ago.WRT to that second question, has that always been the case or is that a more recent innovation? If what you are saying about ATO and door controls is true, why is the media parroting the line WMATA puts out every so often about maybe we won't ever restore ATO, and isn't postponing the restoration of ATO a more severe case of CYA than pressing the button? I do believe they would need to retrain staff before restoring ATO systemwide, new TOs have absolutely no training in automatic operations, but that seems like a hurdle that can be overcome. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 8 15:05:34 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 13:59:08 2018. With the requirement that all 6 car trains stop at the ends of all platforms instead of being centrally berthed, it looks like the T/Os have no training in manual operations either. I can’t say for sure about other transit systems but it seems that on the NYCTS, the more the employees get paid, the less skill they are required to have. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jul 8 15:58:48 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 8 15:05:34 2018. Someone else on here said it more succinctly, but from my perspective the general trend in transit has been ever more authoritarian mgmt in response to past egregiously bad behavior--the Union Square wreck for instance, or the coat hanger disabling of a tripper on QBlvd.It may be that many personnel are simply untrustworthy but hired anyway. It may be that finding well motivated personnel is dificult--exactly what a street supervisor said to me in a recent chat about my local bus provider (AC Transit). I have no reason to believe this is a one-off. When you hired out M/M were allowed to key by at extremely slow speed on their own judgement, and the system was fluid. The other aspect of this is permanent anger/adversarial feelings between mgmt and the front line workers. Footnote. Years ago someone wrote that in general80 or more % of Americans hated their jobs, but being trapped by family/ mortgages etc.,felt unable to change. I wonder whjat that number might be today as the jobs become more unpleasant but in a few cases the pay rise facilitating the rise of numbing behaviors off hours. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 17:21:42 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 13:59:08 2018. WRT to that second question, has that always been the case or is that a more recent innovation?.They began running random consists almost immediately after they were deployed system wide. The hand full of times I've seen or ridden them after system wide deployment they were mostly random consists. If what you are saying about ATO and door controls is true, why is the media parroting the line WMATA puts out every so often about maybe we won't ever restore ATO, and isn't postponing the restoration of ATO a more severe case of CYA than pressing the button? The media is parroting because that's what the media does when it's to lazy or to disinterested to assemble all of the who, what, where, when and why on a given matter. Me thinks the CYA exists because one or more of those folks doesn't want to get cut off at the knees if something screws up really bad. I do believe they would need to retrain staff before restoring ATO systemwide, new TOs have absolutely no training in automatic operations, but that seems like a hurdle that can be overcome. You will get no argument from me on that. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Sitechboy on Sun Jul 8 17:46:30 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jul 8 15:58:48 2018. What's this story about a coat hanger on queens Blvd? |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sun Jul 8 20:04:22 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jul 8 15:58:48 2018. "The other aspect of this is permanent anger/adversarial feelings between mgmt and the front line workers."This seems to be a society-wide problem. I dunno when it started (forever? 1920s?), but it was deliberately accelerated in the '60s and is so strong now it's institutionalized. It's much harder to build morale than it is to break it. Seems like the people calling themselves "woke" and the most arrogant of little management have the same attitude. Maybe they're the same people*, only in different circumstances. There are exceptions, such as Costco. The founder/CEO takes flack from Wall Street for paying floor staff way more than necessary. They're also giving customers ways more than necessary, I get 3# of top-grade almonds for about the price of ONE pound somewhere else, etc. The guy could sell the biz, retire to an island and live like a celebrity, instead he keeps minding the store. No I don't own the stock nor am I related. * No I do not mean physically the same people. Some on here are very literal minded -- a great thing if you're maintaining high voltage equipment or the like, a bit inconvenient for chitchat. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 20:37:32 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 8 15:05:34 2018. The requirement that 6 car trains stop at the end of the platforms came about as a result of WMATA disabling the safety system that would prevent train doors from opening if any part of the train wasn't berthed properly. They decided to disable that system after a few instances of electromagnetic interference caused the doors to open on the wrong side of the train, requiring the doors to be opened manually. Then, there were a few instances of 8 car trains stopping at the 6 car marker and the T/O would open the doors with the last car off the platform. Fortunately no one got hurt in any of these incidents, but when they went to all manual operation after the Fort Totten crash, they also had 6 car trains pull all the way up to avoid other issues.Basically, this is akin to one day removing all the zebra boards for the C/Rs in New York and then telling everyone to operate the doors safely with no fallbacks if something goes wrong. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 20:38:34 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 17:21:42 2018. What is the random consist question in reference to? I think I was asking something else that got lost in transmission. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 8 21:53:03 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 20:37:32 2018. Any T/O who doesn’t know how many cars are in the consist should be removed from service immediately. Back in the pre Chrystie days, some Jamaica expresses ran with 8 cars and some with 6 and the consists weren’t always the same every day. It was up to the crew to be aware of the number of cars in the consist. When I was a trainmaster assigned to Queens although the official consist of GG trains was 8 (either R-10s or R-32s) we would often make “full service” with a number of 7 car trains and the crews were expected to know what they had. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 22:42:48 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 20:38:34 2018. What is the random consist question in reference to? I think I was asking something else that got lost in transmission.Ah, I believe you were referring to the procedures and checks. As you already know WMATA has their "Safety Rules And Procedures Handbook" that is some times referred to as the brick because of the number of pages (the 2000 addition runs 704 pages) and overly complicated and convoluted content. Your typical common carrier railroad division time table, which is the equivalent to WMATA's handbook runs under 80 pages. Those procedures and checks are likely to also have become overly complicated and convoluted. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1480577) | |
Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 22:44:10 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 8 21:53:03 2018. The WMATA operator's console tells the T/O how many cars he or she has in the consist. I'm not condoning what happened, just giving the narrative of the events that got us to this point. |
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| (1480578) | |
Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 22:44:52 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 22:42:48 2018. No, I was asking if the ability to make changes to speed limits and operational modes from Central on the fly was a new development. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 23:43:23 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 8 22:44:52 2018. No, I was asking if the ability to make changes to speed limits and operational modes from Central on the fly was a new development.To my knowledge the functionality to make speed limit changes on the fly has existed sense day one, but they don't use it because of what I stated previously. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jul 9 01:32:59 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Sitechboy on Sun Jul 8 17:46:30 2018. did some searching on NTSB site--curiously no report on a wreck covered immediately bt NYT. Will do further looking tmrw. Gist was supposedlya coat hanger was used to defeat the tripper are...thus provokinga rear ender. More when I can find it. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jul 9 17:16:41 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Steamdriven on Sun Jul 8 20:04:22 2018. This seems to be a society-wide problem. I dunno when it started (forever? 1920s?), but it was deliberately accelerated in the '60s and is so strong now it's institutionalized.IMHO, it has to do with how your Ultimate Boss thinks. In transit, this would be the voting public (and by association, the politicians who are voted in by that public), and the voting public ultimately does not give a shit about how the workplace is run, only about results. When the results suck, the shit will flow downwards, because of CYA and the chain (politicians->executives->managers) needing to look like they are doing something about it. I was fortunate enough to work for years for good bosses who were more interested in making sure the problem gets solved than pointing fingers. As long as you put in honest effort, it counted. Unfortunately, my luck has run out. |
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Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jul 10 23:34:37 2018, in response to Re: WMATA: Not So Clandestine Run Of 6 Car Consist Of 7k Cars In Automatic Mode, posted by Sand Box John on Sun Jul 8 23:43:23 2018. That's too bad. |
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