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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Dec 29 23:40:46 2017, in response to Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Dec 29 19:04:26 2017. Long live the "A" (and "B") cars!! :) Seriously, as much as I love them, at 45 years of age, time for them to go. So Bombardier needs to get their "merde" together. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 30 00:57:17 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Dec 29 23:40:46 2017. Why was BART built to such wacky specs (1000VDC, 5'6" gauge)? If they had matched WMATA they could have piggybacked off each other... |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 01:39:29 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 30 00:57:17 2017. well, those are questions freighted w/ ugly subtexts. The following is what we call circumstantial evidence. When BART was in the design stage a consortium was formed to be the managing/engineering agent for the appointed BOD. The consortium included Parsons, Brinckerhoff the lineal corporate descendent of the Parsons firm which designed the IRT, and Bechtel (an SF based very politically connected world wide engineering/construction firm whose pedigree over the years inclueded Casper Weinberger and George Schultz). S D Bechtel SR was Chairman of the BOD of Southern Pacific Co--the holding co for the SP RR, and S D Jr was a director in the period when BART was being planned.Southern Pacific was by then very anti-passenger, having decided there was no profitable future wheher LD or commuter. SP wanted to get rid of what we now call Caltrain and were very clear they did not want BART to take it over. (SP had also paid the Stanford Research Institue to do a study of passenger losses to buttress their position) SP's next step was the notoious downgrading of services on the trains--an automat car as the cafe car on extra fare Golden State and Sunset Ltds, withdrawing diners, cutting back sleepers. SP's behavior got the attention of the ICC who forced them to briefly reinstate some services. (As an historical note, SP made efforts to sabotage Amtrak both by deliberately sending out a drag freight just ahead of the Coast Starlight, and by banning dome cars as too tall for the tunnels in Donner Pass which had easily passed through in the 50s when detouring around the blocked Feather River Canyon.) So, SP had a direct BOD to BOD connection to Bechtel who was part of the design/management consortium, SP did not want any involvement with BART's routes/services, and BART was designed to be physically incompatible. FWIW, I had conversations w/ BART's head PR guy decades ago about the need for the broad guage. He maintained both then and again recently when touring his memoirs, that the winds in the SF Bay Area required broad guage. When I pointed out that CTA had achieved what was then the US rapid transit speed record w/PCC based cars in the "Windy City" he claimed that name for Chicago related to politics, not actual weather. (Having lived there and in the Bay Area, I know better.) BART spent (wasted IMHO) a great deal of time and effort trying to pretend it was not going to be a "subway" (and certainly not like the dirty NYC syustem) Thus we got the "Buck Rogers" wedge front cars, carpets, cars delivered w/o hand grabs because everyone would have a seat as trains would arrive every 90 seconds courtesy of space age computer control. In fact, they have never been able to run trains as frequently as CTA or NYCTA did in the 50s, and after decades, the often sodden and smelly carpets are gone. The new Bombardier cars will have more doors so as to decrease dwell. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 06:53:36 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 01:39:29 2017. So that's the back story.America's old port cities and corruption seem to be inseparable. At least, the broad gauge, while being a PITA in most ways, does mean that there's one less excuse for having the trains crawl around every curve. No doubt, BART has found others ;-) That Indian gauge (or better, 6') would have been much better for freight; double stacks could be on flat cars instead of in well cars. Thus configured, long stack train would have thousands of hp less air drag, and curves could be banked more without risk of toppling inwards. As it is, a road truck has a track width of about 8 ft but is much lower than a stack or auto-rack. Balancing a 16 high train on a 4 1/2 foot base never made sense. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 30 14:12:04 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 06:53:36 2017. At least, the broad gauge, while being a PITA in most ways, does mean that there's one less excuse for having the trains crawl around every curve.Yet Japan's cape gauge (3'6") has very little crawling, with far better performance on hills and curves than its standard gauge compatriots in the same city... and the train cars are only 1 inch narrower than NYCT B division cars. Only drawbacks are a MAS of ~80MPH, which no subway train in the US exceeds anyway, and absolutely nothing resembling a double stack (though double decker passenger cars work). |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 14:55:26 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 06:53:36 2017. I don't buy the need for wider guage. Secondly, as we well know from IRT v BMT v PATH, standardization/compatability have long termvalue. As for creeping around curves,that has little to do w/track guage; its theradius and easing of the curves that set the speeds.CTA ran PCC L cars at 76.xx in the early 60s on the North Side 4 track main express tracks to show it could be done. CNS&M ran tests w/ the Electroliners in excess of 100MPH in the 40s on ROW laid out in the 20s. As to duble stacks, freight in general, the major constraint on decent mainline RR performance is managerial not technical. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 30 15:36:17 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 14:55:26 2017. I don't buy the need for wider gaugeNor do I. Especially since there is so much 200-mph or close to it running on 4' 8˝" tracks. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 18:34:51 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 30 14:12:04 2017. Well, they're Japanese. They work sharp to make their stuff run sharp. Perhaps that system is run by a staff of even more honed people.NYCTA seems to run at less than 30 mph for the most part. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 18:53:23 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 14:55:26 2017. Yes, there's no real point in building at wider gauge now, the value of standardization is greater.BUT, I'll betcha MNR at Spuyten Dyvil would have made it around the turn witch a 6' gauge (if the rails were tied down well), same for Frankford. Also, they wouldn't need well cars + their air drag for double stacks, that's a technical issue. I don't know how significant that is, freights move rather slowly and fuel is cheap. ------------- "CNS&M ran tests w/ the Electroliners in excess of 100MPH in the 40s on ROW laid out in the 20s." Back then we were a country that was proud of itself. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 19:28:07 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 18:53:23 2017. not only proud but actually interested in quality and performance. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 19:29:52 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 18:53:23 2017. I am not an engineer so I have no expertise with guage v curvaturte, but I have also no reason to believe it is a valid issue. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 20:33:51 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 19:29:52 2017. Yeah, it's a moot issue, no point in changing it now.It just seems like "something kinda broken" - look at an engine end-on, it looks like it wants to fall over. Trains do have a habit of dumping on their sides any time they get off the rails or trip over something. Even hitting a pickup truck on the tracks (Amtrak in CA) can do it. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 21:06:42 2017, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Dec 30 20:33:51 2017. when you consider the dimensions of the flanges, the whole enterprise is somewhat amazing. And of course as one learns in model railroading the cube law means you need larger than scale flanges. As to curves, the last large layout I was involved with (in HO) used eased 48" radius curves. The "easing" was done using the formulae in a manual from the railway engineers assn. Long strings of full length (85') passenger cars, or autoracks and hi-cube auto parts boxes were operated flawlessly. This was a significant improvement over the un eased 36' curves of the previous setup. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Jan 2 08:22:24 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 01:39:29 2017. BART isn't a Subway, it's a 1960's vision Long Island Railroad. It was always meant to bring people to downtown SF and Oakland from car friendly suburbs. Regarding the gauge I've never had any reason to believe it wasn't chosen for capacity and performance reasons. BART's whole ethos was to re-define rail transportation. Broad gauge would be right in line with that. I wouldn't doubt SP had their own machinations, but BART didn't need much convincing. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 2 08:27:55 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Dec 30 01:39:29 2017. He was right about the Windy City nickname. You were not. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 2 09:07:55 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Jan 2 08:22:24 2018. When BART was built, many thought the Espee commuter service would vanish. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:42:27 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 2 09:07:55 2018. Certainly that was the dream at #65 Market St (later #1)--the SP HQ.Yes JM and Mike Healy the BART flack think it is the LIRR--but if you look at ridership patterns, the SF CBD commute is only part of the story, and the Berkeley station is in the top use ##s because of the University which means students/faculty/staff/ who live all over. Further, there is large intra SF ridership where BART clearly is a subway. So, a completely isolated, fenced, system w/ATO,OPTO, barrier fare control, is rapid transit in my book. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:43:20 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 2 08:27:55 2018. Have you lived there and experienced the winds? I have. |
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| (1460905) | |
Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 2 14:49:24 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:43:20 2018. Facts are facts. Chicago is actually less windy than other cities. You probably succumbed to confirmation bias thinking of any windiness as living up to the city's nickname. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:52:11 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 2 14:49:24 2018. when your confirmation bias blows you down the street, give me a call. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 2 15:06:16 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:52:11 2018. I've lived through high winds in New York, which is not known as the Windy City and whose average wind speed is only about 1 MPH less than in Chicago. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 2 15:17:33 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:42:27 2018. Like PATH here, which is rapid transit to its customers, but a commuter RR that is lucky to run off-peak at all to PA management. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 2 15:18:24 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:43:20 2018. It's also called the 2nd City. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 15:47:38 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 2 15:06:16 2018. well, I have lived in NYC, CHi, and the last 47 years Oakland CA. In my non scientific--merely personal experience--Chicago has more wind than Manhattan or the SF Bay Area. But if you have "official" NOAA stats, I can't argue w/that. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 15:48:48 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 2 15:18:24 2018. and there is a Third Coast audio festival. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 15:50:14 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 2 15:18:24 2018. and there is a Third Coast audio festival.All other complaints and plaudits notwithstanding, CTA at least runs two major subway routes 24/7 which in my book is First Class. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 2 17:07:31 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 15:50:14 2018. True. I remember several years ago CTA ran all routes 24/7 with the exceptions of Skokie Swift and Ravenswood, and if I recall, Ravenswood only shut down between 200AM and 400AM. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 17:45:14 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 2 17:07:31 2018. Actually the Ravenswood is an interesting case. When I lived there in the 50s and 60s, Ravenswood was a shuttle only noweekends so no service on the L S of Fullerton to the Loop, and no service late nights. Back then it merited4 car trains in base day service, 6 in rush.Fast forward to this century, the entire branch was rebuilt to accommodate 8 car trains and service hours are longer. Midday trains can be SRO. I would add that if CTA had not demolished the Humboldt Branch, that line, also would be busy today. The problem at the time was CTA was saddled with paying off bondswhich never should have been issued in the first place. The new "municipal" (tax free interest)bonds were created to pay off the bodholders of the previous bankrupt CRT, CSL. Imagine if Conrail had been required to pay off the entire indebtedness of the former RRs. And, one should add that in the CTA case, the bonds had mostly been bought up by speculators as they had been worthless for years. In any event, like unto the L, which was a ghost subway when I lived on 11the betwn B andC in 66-67, and is now jammed, things change. Wisdom would indicate that onekeeps the weak lines in service to foster the rebirth rather than gut them thus delaying rebirth. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Alan Follett on Tue Jan 2 19:38:26 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 2 08:27:55 2018. “Windy City” does appear to have originated as a New York newspaper’s gibe against Chicago’s civic boasting in the run-up to the 1893 Columbian Exposition. But, oh, those literal, meteorological winds! I spent the first 40 year of my life in Chicago. It was on Christmas Eve 1983, crossing what was then the IBM Plaza with the wind chill at a bracing 81 below zero (air temperature merely minus 26) that California started to sound real good.Alan Follett Hercules, CA (with still some Chicago connections) |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jan 3 06:56:55 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jan 2 14:42:27 2018. Back in the 60's, ATO, OPTO and automated fare collections were seen as the future for commuter systems like the LIRR. PATCO, BART and WMATA were all built as commuter rail rapid transit that was not meant to cater to the traditional rapid transit base of urban residents without cars. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 3 12:16:18 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jan 3 06:56:55 2018. You left off your list the Illinois Central Electric which piloted EFC before PATCO or the 2 subway systems (BART, WMATA). |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jan 3 14:58:29 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jan 3 06:56:55 2018. FWIW, we ended up with our version of commuter rail rapid transit because the revolutionary advances of the new S-Bahn systems in Germany are pretty much illegal here and no railway union would support it. Hell, look at how the PATCO stock and M-1s are nearly the same damn train, but PATCO riders get an efficient railway with near European headways, while I get told 2 tph with multiple man crews is "good enough". Everything that BART and WMATA did could have been achieved with European mainline stock and practices (and yes overhead catenary), but as I noted above, those practices are de facto illegal and contrary to railway union labour desires. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jan 3 21:36:59 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 3 12:16:18 2018. Yup. And then because METRA didn't know what to do with it (they had conductors inspecting tickets *in addition* to the turnstiles, which understandably annoyed riders), and South Shore was never integrated, they got rid of their EFC system in 2003. Fortunately the stations are still laid out for it and they could put turnstiles back in with little fuss. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jan 3 21:47:26 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed Jan 3 14:58:29 2018. I support 2 man crews for RR trains, engineer and conductor (with the conductor having nothing to do with fare collection).SEPTA is trying with Key (validators and turnstiles). A half measure compared to fully gating the system, but it's certainly a start. Melbourne Metro is a good example of a traditional-style commuter RR that was turned into a gated system. There are grade level stations right next to railroad crossings - they simply didn't bother going through much effort to wall them off. You can walk 2 feet down the track and hop onto the platform, bypassing the turnstiles, and the crossing gates make for good warning devices in case the train is coming making it rather safe to do so. Despite this, the trains still run Victoria. Example: Batman station. Yes, I got off there primarily because of the name (who could resist?), then walked a few blocks and grabbed the tram on Sydney road. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 3 21:54:16 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jan 3 21:36:59 2018. Better yet they could emulate Caltrain which uses the clipper card, no turnstiles but random POPchalleges. supposedly all of Metra is going to ventra (clipper in Chicago) so they could easily take the next steps. Asto NICTD, thy could easily buy in to ventra; its just a matter of political will. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jan 3 22:04:42 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 3 21:54:16 2018. Random PoP challenges on the LA Metro with the TAP card, too. Toronto also does "random" PoP challenges with their Presto card, except by random I mean seemingly on every single train. Though very curiously, they have a feature where if you don't tap out, it automatically assumes the station you designated as your "home" station pair. So I don't know what keeps people from setting their home pair as one station away from the CBD, and getting a discounted outbound trip every day... |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 4 08:58:27 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 3 21:54:16 2018. Besides the troublesome turnstiles, it got into racial discrimination issues, i.e. why do Metra ELECTRIC get treated different than "regular" Metra riders. |
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Re: Bombardier BART cars |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Jan 4 14:36:40 2018, in response to Re: Bombardier BART cars, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 4 08:58:27 2018. so the best solution is card readers for self scanning as one enters/leaves the stations and occasional POP challenges. The "fare inspectors" do not ned to be "qualified conductors" just persons carrying a card reader and a ticket pad. |
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