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Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017

In the December 27th, 2017 edition of the New York Times - there is an article entitled: "Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System." It concerns the lack of subway service in many neighborhoods of New York City such as in eastern-most Queens, the North Bronx, and across coastal Brooklyn - "to name a few places."

It is a nice article, but I feel that there is something missing. It's on the tip of my tongue, oh, yeah, now I remember . . .

STATEN ISLAND!

STATEN ISLAND!

The entire island of almost approaches almost 500,000 folks does not have a subway system!

Public Transit buses - yes. Public Transit Express buses - yes. An internal island railroad system - yes.

BUT NO SUBWAY!

I do not understand how that fact could have been missed by the New York Times!

Mike




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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Edwards! on Thu Dec 28 01:27:01 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

Well, as much as I would love to see see a subway or Any type of rail TO Staten Island, Im sure you know the reason why none exist.
Every single proposal was met with objection and disdain from residents who believed the subway would bring with it riff Raff... Conveniently forgetting the riff Raff was already there in the form of Nimbys.

While Queens is guilty of this also, northern Bronx actually wanted more subways, and got more highways instead, thanks to Robert Moses.

Brooklyn had a dense system of rail lines that were destroyed without replacement to this very day. It would take billions of dollars to replac,plus the much needed IND lines that were proposed.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Dec 28 02:06:13 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

Correct, although much of housing growth immediately after the VN bridge opened was the ethic whites of various stripes leaving Brooklyn for a more suburban lifestyle.
The real story is that NYC is 70 years behind in building the needed second System, and must also amp up bus service all over--dedicated lanes, all door boarding, traffic signal priority.

The same holds true for transit all across the US except for the cities which are dying for lack of jobs. Columbus has figured out it needs to make transit into the CBD free to make the economy work.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 28 07:27:34 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

1. re-start (some form of) passenger rail service over the gothals bridge. along with

2. north shore rail service.

3. new north-south rail service over the bayonne bridge.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Thu Dec 28 08:30:19 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 28 07:27:34 2017.

#3- To replace the Limited Bus that currently runs over the bridge?
(S89 LTD)

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Dec 28 09:17:43 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

Given this thread so far, the very nature of a "city" comes into question I think. Yes, NYC has its technical borders with its five boroughs, but the city has always had its people deliberately living on its fringes, and often not wanting a subway there. Maybe some places were promised subways (Whitestone, I believe), but I doubt people in Douglaston or Glen Oaks settled planning to soon be walking to a subway station. At the time I wonder if those people cared whether they were in Queens or Nassau (though now there are clear differences in financial living between the two).

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 28 09:59:51 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Dec 28 09:17:43 2017.

Certainly selected sections of the city don't want a subway. But vast sections that don't have a subway do want one.

Southeastern and eastern Queens, east Bronx, and Brooklyn east of the 4 Coney Island lines, are definitely areas that would be very happy for a subway.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 28 11:00:42 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 28 07:27:34 2017.

Why is a Goethals Bridge rail line needed when the Goethals Bridge is right next to the AK bridge?

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by AlM on Thu Dec 28 11:12:53 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Dec 28 11:00:42 2017.

Because the Alaska Railroad needs the rail bridge for freight? :)



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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Dec 28 14:28:41 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 28 07:27:34 2017.

The North Shore line could take A LOT of ferry-bound traffic off Richmond Terrace, Victory Boulevard, and a lot of pax off the S46 and S48. Probably help the S40 as well.

Alas, a move is afoot to make into some sort of Queensway crap...

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 28 16:17:22 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

Staten Island is problematic because a huge amount of infrastructure is missing ... a way to connect to the other boroughs via New York Harbor or the Narrows.

Other issues: Insufficient capacity in Brooklyn and Manhattan to handle any significant traffic from a Staten Island with a way bigger population than the last time a connection was considered.

It's easy to draw a line on a map to the Fourth Avenue or the Culver and another entirely to fund it and build it ... not to mention the travel time over already congested lines.

The underlying question is: What arrangement can we build that would be actually superior to taking the SIRT to St. George to the ferry and being delivered to South Ferry with its walking connection to both the east and west side IRT and Broadway BMT, not to mention the bus services.

If I had to, I would put my money on an extension of HBLR to PATH or other services from Hoboken as most cost-effective.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Dec 28 18:43:53 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 28 16:17:22 2017.

It pays to prioritize problems by the number of people affected. That way a limited resource (like amount of money to be spent) will have its biggest return.

Here are the numbers for # of people, workers and jobs located more than 0.5 miles from a subway station. The SIRT counts as a subway.

"County";"desert_population";"desert_workers";"desert_jobs"
"Bronx";318134;82468;51818
"Kings";451678;143067;76811
"New York";32519;10076;24670
"Queens";1163635;331391;182384
"Staten Island";348695;95706;46805

As you can see, Staten Island ranks third in population and workers and fourth in jobs that are in a transit desert.

The proposed subway expansion projects don't really expand access to those people/workers/jobs located in transit deserts. This goes for all the usual suspects: the SAS; the Triborough Connection; the Rockaway Beach Branch; the Lower Montauk; and several more proposed by the RPA. It's also ironic that the SBS services also ignore transit deserts. The proposed projects are designed to provide more service to those who already enjoy it.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Dec 28 18:45:52 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

Can't wait for the Victory Boulevard Subway. Connected directly to the eventually-finished Second Avenue Line. (Of course, there would probably be a new subway needed through Brooklyn for it too.)

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe on Thu Dec 28 19:56:01 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

The description of Nazir Zahid's quandary needs geographical exactness. Admittedly, Bronx rapid transit routes resemble the fingers of a hand, and the trick is to get from one line to another. However, the four buses he requires to get from Kingsbridge to West Farms must have some other wrinkle, as the Bx9, the former "Bronx & Van" streetcar route C, connects Kingsbridge with West Farms, and I rode that tedious one-vehicle ride often over six or seven decades.
---
Two months ago, a well-traveled transit fan visited our city and attempted a Bronx tour, first up White Plains Road to East 241st Wakefield, then across town to the #1 train for a view of the 207th Street yard. The adventure consumed far too much time, especially with traffic jams on the Bx12 SBS. On the way south, an assault took place on the train arriving at 110th street, and following trains ran express as the police investigated. Thereby, he learned more of our city's transit.
---
For a year in the 1960's I found myself making the weekly trip from Kingsbridge to Baychester Avenue on the Dyre Avenue line. Neither the crosstown buses nor the train to 96th Street and back up were satisfactory. The Uber estimate at this time is $18 to $25. The MTA estimate is $2.75.
---
Fingers on a hand? The Third Avenue route, a Bronx finger has been amputated, to nobody's advantage.


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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 29 04:22:00 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 28 16:17:22 2017.

HBLR extension would be the most bang for the buck, a two seat ride to midtown.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 29 06:36:40 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Dec 28 18:43:53 2017.

I don't think the word "enjoy" completely describes the situation. What these lines are doing is redistributing people away from already overloaded lines, or increasing access to other areas of the city which could use the attention. Doing either of these things allows for an increase in growth, because you're removing chokepoints and making it easier to create business centers away from already crowded Manhattan. True, it's not necessarily helping the people in the transit deserts, but then again, can the current trunk lines take the extra traffic from new extensions in these areas (assuming these areas want them in the first place. Has eastern Brooklyn been crying out for subway service in their areas?).

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 08:12:39 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 29 06:36:40 2017.

You raised several red herrings. The most important is that subway demand is at the breaking point. It isn't. Demand has spread over the 24 hours and 7 days per week.



Peak period demand has been declining. That's what should answer the question of whether there are sufficient resources.


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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 29 12:49:29 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 08:12:39 2017.

That's for the system as a whole, but I'm talking more about specific lines. Like, what was passenger loading like on the Lex Ave lines before the SAS, above 59th St? What is the passenger loading like now on the lines that you want to extend into eastern Brooklyn?

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 29 13:45:29 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 28 09:59:51 2017.

They would be happy with any sort of rail, which is why investing I'm LRT lines would be worthwhile.

Let's be honest. There are far too many cars on NYC streets...on main roads, there should be an email like service to encourage folks out of their autos.
Trains should have street signal tech that gives them priority,no parking period... And raised right of way.
The city could pull it off if it really wanted to.

Furthermore, am LRT could be build along the Staten Island expressway,across the Bridge to Brooklyn, up Third avenue to the Battery Tunnel to the WTC.
Branch lines could be build to the Bay Ridge line.. Connection to the Uric Avenue line, and others.
If planned right, the city could have a vast network of street level rapid transit with underground sections,that will serve everyone at half the price of building new underground systems.

All we need is someone with the balls to get the ball rolling.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 29 13:47:53 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by AlM on Thu Dec 28 09:59:51 2017.

They would be happy with any sort of rail, which is why investing I'm LRT lines would be worthwhile.

Let's be honest. There are far too many cars on NYC streets...on main roads, there should be an Lightrail like service to encourage folks out of their autos.
Trains should have street signal tech that gives them priority,no parking period... And raised right of way.
The city could pull it off if it really wanted to.

Furthermore, an LRT could be built along the Staten Island expressway,across the Bridge to Brooklyn, up Third avenue to the Battery Tunnel to the WTC.
Branch lines could be built to the Bay Ridge line.. Connection to the Utica Avenue line, and others.
If planned right, the city could have a vast network of street level rapid transit with underground sections,that will serve everyone at half the price of building new underground systems.

All we need is someone with the balls to get the ball rolling.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by randyo on Fri Dec 29 15:49:53 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 29 13:45:29 2017.

Either LRT or heavy rapid transit along both the SI Expwy or the Richmond (now Korean Vetsí) Pky and possibly even along the West Shore Expwy would definitely be a good idea, but unfortunately due to Robert Moses, I donít believe the V/N Br can support the weight of even LRVs.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 29 16:09:51 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by randyo on Fri Dec 29 15:49:53 2017.

Not so.
The VN Bridge can support rail car weights and more.

However..its the MTA cash cow status,being one of the most expensive crossings,that keeps rails off the bridge. 2 lanes removed mean millions of dollars in lost revenue for the MTA.
This is precisely why you will Never see rails on any MTA bridge or tunnel.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 16:39:59 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 29 16:09:51 2017.

The VN Bridge can support rail car weights and more.

The VZ live load is 4800 lb/foot. The Williamsburg is 7900 lb/foot and the Manhattan is 10,000 lb/foot.

The way Ammann's bridges came in at significantly lower cost was reduced live load capacity.

The VN Bridge can support rail car weights and more.

It cannot even support gridlock with fully loaded trucks. Another of Ammann's tricks was to trust in the probability that the worst case scenario would never happen.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 29 16:52:31 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Dec 28 18:43:53 2017.

People along the Rockaway Beach Branch 'do not already enjoy it". The service ended in the early 1950's, now a Q53 feeder to the 3 subway lines, but mostly to the 2 IND ones. The purpose of the RBB is to restore the rail service, and not rely on a pokey and labor intensive feeder bus service.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 29 16:54:52 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 08:12:39 2017.

Exactly. A trip on Q52/3 to the Rockaways may encounter a 1 hour delay in traffic headed to the Peninsula on a weekend morning. There are plenty of resources off-peak, today to add routes.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 29 17:35:34 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 16:39:59 2017.

"It cannot even support gridlock with fully loaded trucks. "

Are you saying this scenario has never happened?

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 29 17:44:40 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by italianstallion on Fri Dec 29 17:35:34 2017.

Of course there can be gridlock if lanes are blocked.

I would agree with Stephen that the bridge can't be the source of congestion all by itself, if all lanes are open. There just isn't enough feeder capacity.

There can of course be gridlock on the westbound bridge if the SI Expressway is totally shut - people just can't get off the bridge at the same rate as they can get on.

Similarly there can be gridlock on the eastbound bridge if the Gowanus is shut.


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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 17:54:50 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Joe V on Fri Dec 29 16:52:31 2017.

Here are the numbers for the Rockaway Beach Branch for a 1/2 mile radius around stations from Ozone Park to Rego Park.

tot_pop;tot_workers;tot_jobs;desert_pop;desert_workers;desert_jobs
100751;36410;18617;15884;5724;3057

The desert population, workers and jobs are in areas that are further than 1/2 mile of an existing subway station.

This is a textbook example of duplicating service, when other people have none.

About 85% of those served already are within 1/2 mile of an existing subway station.

The RBB's penetration for Queens residents in transit deserts is about 1.5%.

The BQX and some of the RPA's vital subway expansions are worse.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 29 18:05:36 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 17:54:50 2017.

Right. The Rockaway Beach branch has 3 stations right on the line and 2 nearby: Broad Channel, Howard Beach, Aqueduct, 104th Street, and 104th street (again). It's really only Middle Village that would be served by the line but is not served by a subway.



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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 18:29:35 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 29 18:05:36 2017.

I wasn't including the existing subway stops. Otherwise the percentage of those already served would have probably reached 99%. Only, Ozone Park, Woodhaven Jct, Brooklyn Manor, Parkside and Rego Park were included.

Here's the breakdown by these stops:

stop_name;tot_pop;tot_workers;tot_jobs;desert_pop;desert_workers;desert_jobs
"Brooklyn Manor";25892;9118;4846;;;
"Ozone Park";25840;8858;6081;;;
"Parkside";11872;4402;2517;11779;4372;2517
"RegoPark";37293;14189;8255;4105;1352;540
"Woodhaven Jct";26614;9174;5764;;;

As you can see, only 2 stops (Parkside and Rego Park) provide any relief for desert dwellers.


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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Dec 29 19:31:11 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by AlM on Fri Dec 29 17:44:40 2017.

Actually, the Brooklyn side has about six lanes of feeder capacity; most people on the six-lane Belt Parkway are heading for the bridge westbound, and the Gowanus Expressway has the other three lanes. (This doesn't count local entrances.)

The Staten Island side should have had six lanes of feeder capacity, four lanes from the Staten Island Expressway and two from the sabotoged Korean War Veterans Parkway. The expressway should arguably have been six lanes in each direction to the split with the parkway, even if it had to be double-decked. The imbalance between Brooklyn and Staten Island capacity explains why the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on the HOV lane won't put a dent in I-278 traffic woes. Basically six lanes go into four. We need the parkway, regardless of whether it was "demapped" or not. It's time to remap it.

The Verrazano Bridge should also have had some provision for mass transit, but based on my subway experiences with the Williamsburg and Manhattan bridges, I am inclined to say that it may not have been the best solution. A subway tunnel probably would give better performance.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 29 19:39:23 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 17:54:50 2017.

Right. The Rockaway Beach branch has 3 stations right on the line and 2 nearby: Broad Channel, Howard Beach, Aqueduct, 104th Street, and 104th street (again). It's really only Middle Village that would be served by the line but is not served by a subway.



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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 29 20:26:25 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by SLRT on Thu Dec 28 16:17:22 2017.

Why not run the North Shore line into NYP? You get service to the ferry for downtown bound passengers and service to midtown for those folks. On top of that, you're also covering SI residents who work in Newark.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 29 20:33:54 2017, in response to Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Michael549 on Thu Dec 28 00:18:03 2017.

Hook the north shore branch into the NEC and run St George - Newark - Penn. You can get folks to the ferry for downtown service, and then in the opposite direction you can get them into Midtown, along with serving any SI residents who work in Newark.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 29 21:04:56 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Dec 28 18:43:53 2017.

I'm not seeing how these "deserts" could be eliminated. Every location in Paris is within 500 meters of a Metro station, but central Paris is much smaller in area than NYC. I don't know of any other large cities that don't have some unserved areas.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 29 21:05:11 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Dec 29 19:31:11 2017.

For mass transit -
The easiest yet most useful Subway route to build would probably be to connect the SIR to Lower Manhattan via (nonstop) NJ. What could be done is:
1. Reconfigure St George as a through station.
2. Reactivate Ball Park (it's right along the way anyway).
3. Use the abandoned north shore ROW to get to bridge height (or tunnel depth).
4. Curve into the crossing, cross over (or under) to Constable Hook

At this point there are two options, of varying pros and cons:
1. Go full blown FRA, double track the freight line, and share to Liberty State Park. They can single track off peak to allow freight to continue with roughly the same throughput as it has now.
2. Work out a way to Share with HBLR. A dual 600VDC 3rd rail / 750VDC catenary vehicle should not be difficult. Since it's only the Bayonne branch, there's extra capacity. This section has no street running and is a former RR RoW, so 60' cars should clear just fine. Stations would need to have the grade level pedestrian crossings eliminated, and switches might need to be changed to support the longer cars.

Either way, once at the park, use the wooded non-parkland space to duck into a shallow tunnel under the NJ Turnpike. Then, cut and cover under Philip St, gradually descending to eventually become a deep bore. Turn right and cross under the Hudson.

Once in Manhattan, if the FRA route was chosen, the best that can be done is a new station with a lot of transfer options (perhaps under Fulton TC). If the HBLR route was chosen, perhaps it can become the E train at WTC.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 29 21:06:32 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 08:12:39 2017.

More and more people who work in Manhattan are working nonstandard business hours.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 29 21:08:28 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 29 21:05:11 2017.

"Use the abandoned north shore ROW to get to bridge height (or tunnel depth)."

Is the ROW still intact, in other words not encroached upon?

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 29 22:12:02 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 18:29:35 2017.

Of course the Rockaway Beach line covers a lot of stops already covered by another line - that's obvious. Besides serving some areas that don't have easy access to subway service, it also provides cross-Queens service for people in SE Queens to Queens Blvd and Queens Center. To otherwise do it by subway would be an impractical circuitous route, or it would be a long bus trip. On top of that, it would allow an increase in Queens Blvd local train service by providing an alternative terminal.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 29 22:50:24 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 29 21:04:56 2017.

Tokyo City has no transit deserts, but that was due to the cycle of: Area has no transit -> no one wants to live there -> cheap to buy up land and build a transit line -> now there's transit. Japan has no concept of NIMBY, little resembling zoning, etc - anyone can put almost anything they want on their land. Buy up plots to make a 5KM strip of contiguous land and you can put tracks on it / run trains. They also chose to block up the navigable waterways that cut through the city with low fixed bridges for rail lines and roads, figuring the benefit outweighed the costs (imagine if the East river could be traversed by bridges 40' above the water).

That said, I can't think of any other large city with such omnipresent rail transit. Washington DC (the district itself) should be an easy one yet there are huge sections at the edges with no Metro.
Singapore is massively building out their subway but even after they finish, there will still be places that are a 10 minute bus ride from a station (annoyingly, one of those places is the Zoo).

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 23:04:56 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 29 21:06:32 2017.

More and more people who work in Manhattan are working nonstandard business hours.

It's a 30 year trend. The MTA and most transportation planners are not aware of it. Their excuse for crowded trains is that the system is running at capacity.

They want to spend $16B to $20B to implement CBTC to increase peak hour capacity. It's another example of their not knowing what's happening.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 29 23:16:45 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Dec 29 19:31:11 2017.

I thought I was the only person who was sad watching them take down the ramps at the phantom interchange with the Richmond Parkway.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 23:19:53 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Dec 29 21:04:56 2017.

I'm not seeing how these "deserts" could be eliminated...Every location in Paris is within 500 meters of a Metro station

It requires a plan. Paris wasn't an accident. They formulated that goal in the early 1900's and stuck to it. After the 20 arrondisements were covered, they headed towards the proche banlieu.

About 77% of the NYC's transit desert population lives within 2.0 miles of a subway stop. Start building out to these areas and that will remove 84% of the desert population from the desert and make the remainder 2 miles closer to the subway.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 29 23:20:06 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 29 22:50:24 2017.

Japan has no concept of NIMBY

FALSE! Look up the history of Narita Airport.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Dec 30 00:07:46 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by 3-9 on Fri Dec 29 22:12:02 2017.

Besides serving some areas that don't have easy access to subway service, it also provides cross-Queens service for people in SE Queens to Queens Blvd and Queens Center.

First off, the RBB does not cover SE Queens.

Second, the number of potential people who live and work more than 1 mile apart with both within walking distance of the Woodhaven Blv/Bway corridor (Q52/53 SBS routes) is very small.

The population, workers and jobs within walking distance of the Q52 are: 212026;81254;32276 respectively. However, the number of people who live and work more than 1 mile apart and whose jobs and homes are within walking distance of the Q52 is only 1670. That's a population capture rate of less than 1% of the population.

The same numbers for the Q53 are: 337107;128894;50879;3048. Again, the capture rate is less than 1% of the population.

The "need" for north-south Queens SBS routes was proposed by a Pratt Institute report about 4 years ago. The report methodology was faulty. It started with the number of people and jobs by zip code. The authors just assumed that people who lived along the corridor tended to work along it, without any corroboration.

My numbers were derived from the Longidudinal Employmeer-Household Dynamics (LEHD) census data. It gives the home-employment data for every worker down to the census block level. It gives a fairly unbiased estimate of commuting travel needs.

it would allow an increase in Queens Blvd local train service by providing an alternative terminal.

There are many ways to increase Queens Blv local train service without building a new terminal. This is an artificial limit. It's based on work rules not infrastructure.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Dec 30 00:22:01 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 29 23:20:06 2017.

I've read about it - I meant legal means for NIMBYs to actually stop things. Since the government was building the airport, they had to humor the NIMBYs (there were elections after all, and the primary opposition to the airport were socialists). The roadblocks were either illegal (as in literally blocking the roads, murdering police) or easily resolved (farmer builds tower on his land to make runway useless, government takes land and demolishes tower). There were similar tense situations regarding the construction of the Musashino freight line and the Tohoku Shinkansen - in both cases a passenger (/ local) service was added to quell unrest. At the time those, too, were government initiatives.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 30 07:11:37 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Dec 29 23:04:56 2017.

I agree 100% that CBTC is a boondoggle.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Dec 30 12:33:06 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Dec 29 21:05:11 2017.

If you did it as the (E), it would be one very long line.

I suspect you would have to add stops in New Jersey if you went through there.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Dec 30 14:08:48 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Dec 29 23:16:45 2017.

"Sad" doesn't begin to describe it. "Angry" and "disgusted" capture it lots better. The thing could still be finished, though, it will just be unnecessarily more difficult.

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Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System

Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sat Dec 30 18:52:53 2017, in response to Re: Left Behind by the Nationís Largest Subway System, posted by Joe V on Sat Dec 30 07:11:37 2017.

So I take it that you would be happier with more slow timers and less reliable signals.

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