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| Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground (1430997) | |
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| (1431141) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 18:58:20 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 15:24:12 2017. A better question might be why the station is going to cost $35 million when it's basically two slabs of concrete and two elevators. |
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| (1431142) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:03:10 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 18:54:57 2017. 7 minutes ? That's never my experience for 45 years. 9 is my personal best, and seems to be 1 to 2 minutes better inbound than outbound. Coming out, never less than 10 anymore, usually 11 -12. Track conditions in Line 3 & 4 tunnels are poor. |
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| (1431143) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 19:04:13 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 23 18:54:55 2017. Yes, I think your recollection is correct. It's one obstacle or the other, not both. I use it to go from points east to Greenpoint on occasion, and it's safe to say it would be a more popular transfer if it was safer and smelled better. |
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| (1431144) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:06:00 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 18:58:20 2017. You also have a pair of steel I-beams supporting the cylindrical bases, going for 10- to 12 cars lengths. Steel is expensive. Railings are fancier than what they used in the 1970's and 1980's.That's about ballpark as to what NJT spent on Ridgewood, NJ |
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| (1431145) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 19:13:28 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:03:10 2017. The only limiting factor is whether another train gets in the way either in Harold or Penn. If you have a clear shot it is indeed 7 minutes.The other thing is that eastbounds cannot leave Woodside early, so trains will sometimes creep in to the station to eat up the time, rather than sitting for 2-3 minutes with the doors open. While the crossovers in Harold are a bit bouncy, track conditions do not play a part in how long it takes. |
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| (1431147) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 19:15:37 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:27:25 2017. That might be the eventual endgame. Sever the line completely, get an FRA waiver, and give it to transit. |
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| (1431148) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:19:47 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 19:13:28 2017. The track in the tunnels suck. |
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| (1431149) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 19:21:16 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 17:30:26 2017. Rumors off subchat. As you said, no concrete plans have not been produced. Hence the rumor mill going wild, even from people at LIRR |
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| (1431150) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:22:19 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 19:15:37 2017. Running a westbound train and crossing over would be quite a disruptive mess between Nevins and Atlantic. To shoehorn them in, do you cut New Lots of Flatbush service ? |
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| (1431151) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 19:25:25 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 17:28:09 2017. I mean it's not going to be independent as in it's not like it's going to be its own transit system with no connections to anything else. It's still going to be fed by connections off the LIRR at Jamaica. Those are serious intervals though if that's the real plan (again, no concrete plans AFAIK), and I agree, a new fare should be set up. As it is, LIRR is getting ready to do a pilot program of a combined LIRR/NYCT monthly pass from SE Queens to FBA that includes free transfers to NYCT. But I'd say a little more needs to be done. Zone 3 to FBA should be at a full time city ticket price with the free transfer. Staying within the same zone should be subway price. |
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| (1431152) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 19:27:24 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 18:32:50 2017. The plan at the time, from what I was told, was it was going to be a package deal. FBA, OB, and Greenport all go to the same private operator. Last I heard, that plan is dead. |
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| (1431153) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 19:30:15 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:27:25 2017. Hell no. Fulton has the A express already. Once ESA and NYP are maxed out, they're going to regret not having FBA. Plus, as was mentioned before, Brooklyn continues to grow as a destination. Getting LIRR out of there is one of the worst ideas I could think of in terms of future planning. Use LIRR to operate some more frequent city zone service with a restructured fare. |
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| (1431154) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 19:37:06 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 18:53:54 2017. A service like this should use subway fares. |
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| (1431156) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 19:43:15 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 15:24:12 2017. "Add 15 minutes average waiting time to your trip."Such waiting time is pretty irrelevant to a commuter train rider. Passengers time their arrival at the station to arrive just a few minutes before scheduled train departure. |
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| (1431158) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:51:04 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 19:43:15 2017. Well then they sit at home and watch TV until train time, while they are thinking they could have been halfway there on the R or M train. |
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| (1431159) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:53:12 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 19:27:24 2017. That was during the financial crisis. That's dead. |
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| (1431165) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 20:52:01 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:51:04 2017. As a frequent MNRR user, I can assure you that's not what we do. |
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| (1431166) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 21:23:46 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:22:19 2017. Should have been more clear on that. Meant transit operating a completely disconnected Jamaica to Atlantic shuttle. Fleet maintainence would be a problem. Maybe transit gets Morris Park in the deal. Pure idle speculation at this point, because the known facts don't make a hell of a lot of sense. |
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| (1431168) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Ftgreeneg on Thu Mar 23 22:20:05 2017, in response to re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 06:22:57 2017. Think it would be a very good idea which might be sabatoged by the fact that this platform f business at Jamaica imo is going to decimate brooklyn lirr service. The shuttlization isn't the problem but taking away the cross platform transfer will be a huge problem and deterent for the scoot. I guesd woodhaven would be useful for thise traveling to downtown BK. |
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| (1431169) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Ftgreeneg on Thu Mar 23 22:29:05 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 11:16:06 2017. I don't think yhe shuttlization itself is terrible. However the plan to build that seperate platform and eliminate the transfer imo is going to destroy the service. Once Long Island riders start missing their connections trying to run up and down steps customers will stop using it which will of course give lirr justification to severely reduce service. I don't understand why they couldn't reconfigure the interlocking to keep the cross platform transfer from brooklyn and allow the shuttle trains to relay and pick up eastbound riders and go back to Atlantic Term. Maybe a flyover to not interfere too much with the Penn/GCT service. |
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| (1431170) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 22:57:07 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 21:23:46 2017. "Fleet maintainence would be a problem."Send them to Lavonia?? |
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| (1431171) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 23 23:02:23 2017, in response to re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 06:22:57 2017. I'll get right on it. |
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| (1431177) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Fri Mar 24 01:01:52 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Ftgreeneg on Thu Mar 23 22:20:05 2017. just seems ridiculous to abandon an almost functional railroad station in the middle of a dense urban area. |
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| (1431178) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Fri Mar 24 01:07:31 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 23 23:02:23 2017. thanks. |
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| (1431179) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Ftgreeneg on Fri Mar 24 02:17:55 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Fri Mar 24 01:01:52 2017. Agreed. I think the fact it's an underground station (more $$$ to maintain) for what probably will be a low usage station prevents that station from opening back up. |
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| (1431180) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Mar 24 03:40:08 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 20:52:01 2017. IAWTP. Even an hourly service can be very useful, though of course half hourly is nicer. |
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| (1431183) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Mar 24 07:07:09 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:27:25 2017. I actually like that idea!! |
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| (1431187) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 24 07:17:12 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:27:25 2017. Cut their losses & give the line to the IRT. Re-connect tracks at Atlantic Ave, open up Woodhaven, install signals, have a dedicated platform & turnstiles at Jamaica so you have direct, quick one seat ride to downtown Manhattan. This too will free up some LIRR equiptment for increased service needs demanded by the opening of the ESA & 3d track of the main line & double track to Ronkonkoma.One problem with that is that communities along the ROW especially on the el will clamor for added stations and will not stand for a bus to train option. Building a station or two on the el is not a problem, but the Atlantic Ave subway would be very costly. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 24 10:12:48 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by AlM on Fri Mar 24 03:40:08 2017. Even an hourly service can be very useful, though of course half hourly is nicer.Agreed that rail service is useful. However, it's more useful to those who don't currently have it than to those who currently have it. The point is the cost of adding new rail service to areas that currently enjoy it, diverts funds from providing rail service to areas that don't. |
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| (1431202) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Mar 24 11:51:36 2017, in response to re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 06:22:57 2017. It was closed in 1976 for low usage and to speed service to Jamaica. While I agree that this seems like a good idea, I doubt it will ever come to fruition. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Fri Mar 24 12:20:34 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Ftgreeneg on Thu Mar 23 22:29:05 2017. The problem as I understand it is the Hempstead trains in both directions crossing over.The easiest fix would have been to send the Hempsteads to Penn and the Long Beach trains to Brooklyn. No reconfigure necessary. Just earplugs to drown out the screaming from Long Beach. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Fri Mar 24 12:26:25 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Mar 24 11:51:36 2017. the speed service to jamaica idea doesn't seem like much of a reason. adds what, three minutes to the trip?low ridership seems a more valid reason. although, there's been a lot of changes since 1976. downtown brooklyn sure has gotten busier. after forty years...might be a viable idea again. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 24 15:09:01 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 18:55:45 2017. They can't isolate it from the rest of the LIRR tracks? The line follows the southern edge of the interlocking west of Jamaica, after all. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 24 15:10:34 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 22:57:07 2017. Why not? The track connection could be used for maintenance purposes, like the Grand Central shuttle. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 24 15:12:29 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 19:30:15 2017. Totally agree, but I think they were pressured to give up facilities at the Atlantic Ave terminal, which makes the branch less useful. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Mar 24 17:54:41 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Mar 24 10:12:48 2017. A lot depends on the relative cost of each scenario. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 24 19:44:43 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by 3-9 on Fri Mar 24 15:09:01 2017. No, they really can't if you like at the track map. There are LIRR sidings on either side of it. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Mar 27 06:56:22 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 19:30:15 2017. That's what I think. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 28 11:59:06 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:12:57 2017. Also would have to be made ADA Accessible. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 28 12:02:31 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:53:47 2017. Right, and many of them live near that station I'm sure.If that station can be re-opened, it would likely be very useful, especially as even that area starts to get built up. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 28 12:14:13 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri Mar 24 07:17:12 2017. And how would you connect the LIRR ROW to the IRT?Perhaps if you make it subway, you connect it to either the (B) / (Q) or (D) / (N) / (R) tracks somehow. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Tue Mar 28 12:27:07 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 19:19:47 2017. I had three chances recently to test this-- clear shot from Woodside to Penn westbound-- it's 8 minutes, 0 seconds from doors close in Woodside to doors open in Penn, operating normally. If I wanted to run the wheels off to back up my claim, I could have brought it in 7 and change.That relieved some of the tedium of running really off-peak westbounds. Thanks, I think. |
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| (1431525) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 28 14:24:44 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Fri Mar 24 12:26:25 2017. Exactly:1976 was a completely different time from now. Now, I would look at re-opening it and doing the necessary work, especially since as others have suggested what is supposed to become the "Scoot" could then be connected to subway lines for subway service. |
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| (1431527) | |
Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 28 14:52:59 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 28 14:24:44 2017. In my prior post, If the line was connected to the IRT at Atlantic Av. it would improve flexibility for LIRR passengers heading to downtown Manhattan. Cross platform transfers at Jamaica can be built, similar to the PATH/Amtrak set up that exists in Newark.A trackway w/o tracks exists between the Subway & LIRR at Atlantic Ave so connections can be made. Re-opening Woodhaven would be icing on the cake inasmuch the area would have another subway line, stratigicly, along Atlantic Ave. between the A & J/Z. In addition, Woodhaven Blvd does not need any more busses. Its a win-win for all around IMO. More subway service for the locals. Direct & Quicker service to lower Manhattan for the Long Island folks |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 28 15:35:35 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 07:43:20 2017. They would have to put in elevators to comply with ADA. Stations that don't have ADA access are grandfathered in, but this would be considered a "new" station or major improvement to one, where ADA is required. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 17:03:07 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Mar 28 12:14:13 2017. No way to connect, unless you abandon the terminal and spend $1-2 billion building a new station and working around all the existing tunnels to make the connection. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 17:08:21 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 28 14:52:59 2017. By trackway, you mean the LIRR circulation area, staircases, LIRR ticketing area, and rooms off the IRT platform.Once your plow through all that, you now have access to the IRT local northbound track. To get to other tracks, you need at grade crossings. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 28 17:29:07 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Mar 28 15:35:35 2017. Elevators mean new excavations. I don't think this station had elevators for baggage/express service, nor did the RBB station above. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Tue Mar 28 18:14:47 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:12:57 2017. I believe the neighborhood has gotten safer over the years. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 28 18:33:43 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by LA Scott on Tue Mar 28 17:08:21 2017. Nevins St lower level could possibly be modified to connect to the LIRR depending on the situation with the IND subway in the area. |
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