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| Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people (1400093) | |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 14:45:23 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jun 28 12:34:06 2016. i am still here terrapin station, not killed yet cause, i stopped, looked and listened and than moved da car if no train is coming.chud1. :)..... |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 14:48:59 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Karl M, eX nEW yORKER on Tue Jun 28 13:44:08 2016. IAWTP!chud1. :)..... |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 14:51:45 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 28 13:38:13 2016. I found this information on the NY State website:What vehicles are required to stop at all grade crossings? Section 1171 of the New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law requires certain vehicles to stop at all railroad crossings, including: •any bus carrying passengers •any school bus •any vehicle carrying explosive substances or flammable liquids as cargo •any crawler-type tractor, steam shovel, derrick, roller, or any equipment or structure having a normal operating speed of ten miles per hour or less However, no stop need be made at any such crossing where a police officer or a traffic-control signal or sign directs traffic to proceed. The New York State Vehicle and Traffic Law (Section 1176) also prohibits events obstructing highway-railroad grade crossings. Your point about stopping may have been required at one time is well taken. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jun 28 14:58:04 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Karl M, eX nEW yORKER on Tue Jun 28 13:44:08 2016. I disagree. Someone who has been driving for years around, say, Nassau County, NY who only has to stop for trains when gates and lights are in action may very well, if not taking note of the differing laws and practices, think that without gates and lights, the sign in question is just telling you that you are near a railroad and you can expect the possibility of seeing gates and lights soon.Even if the "book" tells you when you get your license to always yield to trains, people in certain parts of the country will come to think that only means don't go around the gates or passed the blinking lights. They may honestly not expect to end up on tracks after passing only one sign that just says "Railroad. . ." Uniformity across states is something that should be sought. That shouldn't be hard. "Railroad" signs can easily be brought out a few more feet in advance, be made bigger than a first grader's cut-out, and say "Yield to trains" or "Look for trains before crossing." |
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What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 28 14:58:47 2016, in response to Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by OCTD 2039 on Mon Jun 27 00:47:14 2016. The family that had 5 of 6 killed lived right next to the tracks. The driver must have known perfectly well that lots of high speed trains passed through that crossing. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 15:11:36 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jun 28 14:01:27 2016. On a straightaway, yes. BUT suppose there's a curve or an obstruction that limits vision. Taking the SAFE course is always advisable. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 15:13:24 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jun 28 12:34:06 2016. It's never WRONG to take the SAFE course |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 15:32:15 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jun 28 14:58:04 2016. IAWTP!chud1. :).... |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 15:33:05 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 15:11:36 2016. IAWTP!chud1. :)..... |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 15:34:27 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 15:13:24 2016. IAWTP!chud1. :)..... |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Jun 28 17:14:11 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 15:33:05 2016. It's just plane common sense to do so something that's gravely missing in today's society especially when you're with your family. Karl |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Jun 28 17:25:59 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 14:51:45 2016. Years ago my dad and I was riding in a Grey Hound bus and we approached an abandoned railroad ROW but the driver stopped and opened the door, my dad asked why he stopped since the tracks are long gone the driver said " because of the old decaying RR cross bucks that were still there, it's the law ". Karl |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Jun 28 17:30:41 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 15:34:27 2016. Maybe Terrapin Station should take his own advise and report back to us LOL. Karl |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jun 28 17:35:06 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Jun 28 17:30:41 2016. Heh. He never said that he doesn't slow down to a safe speed. :)If your view is good it's safe to cross at 5 mph - you can be sure there's no train barreling down on you. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:38:40 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 15:11:36 2016. I addressed that. I didn't say anything that contradicts what you said. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:40:51 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jun 28 14:58:04 2016. I disagree. Ignorance is not an excuse. Railroad crossings are a basic part of Driver's Ed. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Jun 28 17:42:28 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 27 23:13:58 2016. Same goes for those left turn lanes at intersections now with a flashing yellow arrow after a green arrow even with oncoming traffic some idiots cut right in front of oncoming traffic not wanting to wait to turn when it's safe to do so. I believe this was the insurance companies idea to get more accidents for their business, knowing how stupid plenty of the driving public is becoming. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:44:23 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 14:45:23 2016. Where did I say otherwise? I asked if you were doing it wrong all this time because you were not correct in your understanding of the recommended procedure. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:47:45 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 28 13:38:13 2016. It may have. Or it may not have. Doesn't change what I said. And it doesn't change the fact that his description of current procedure is incorrect. What the rules may or may not have been in the past doesn't affect this discussion. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:48:10 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 14:51:45 2016. How is it well taken? |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:49:05 2016, in response to What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 28 14:58:47 2016. Isn't it just one guy taking about "the first time"? |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:55:43 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 15:13:24 2016. The course I described is safe in all conditions. Reread what I wrote.Doing something that likely offers no significant increase in safety, because you think you are following a rule that doesn't actually exist, is in fact doing it wrong. The driver's manual prescribes the correct way of doing it. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by chud1 on Tue Jun 28 18:59:07 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Tue Jun 28 17:30:41 2016. agree.chud1. :)..... |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Tue Jun 28 20:29:32 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jun 28 14:02:15 2016. Stop sign that is or should be posted along with the RxR. At least in all the cases I've seen (east coast) there's a stop sign at every active RR crossing, or the whole bell/lights/gate business. I can't think of a crossing I've been over that had trains running and only the dinky RxR sign. If that's not the case in other places, I'd call that an egregious hazard. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 23:14:41 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:48:10 2016. He wrote that the rule to stop may have been in effect at one time even if it's not in the driver's manual today.Drivers don't have to retake the test. Once you pass, that's it. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 23:32:47 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:55:43 2016. I haven't read anybody else agree with you. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:07:33 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 23:32:47 2016. I have. Try rereading the thread. Also, as I said, THE NYSDMV DRIVERS MANUAL agrees with me, which was my entire original point. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jun 29 00:07:51 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 14:51:45 2016. Since this took place in Colorado, and not in NY, our laws and operating rules don't matter. The family was from the town where the accident took place, all of the discussion about people in unfamiliar situations is also not likely to be relevant. People just do not realize how many unguarded rail crossings there are in this country. No matter what the signs or signals say, you are responsible for the safe operation of your vehicle, if the speed limit is 65, and it is foggy or snowing, you can be ticketed for speeding at 60 if the conditions for safe operation at 65 are not present. Procedures for railroad crossings (including a special section on the Denver RTD) are included in Colorado's Driver Handbook, The signs and pavement markings are there for a reason. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:07:54 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 28 17:35:06 2016. I very precisely said what I said and I meant exactly what I said. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:10:55 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Steamdriven on Tue Jun 28 20:29:32 2016. I'd call that an egregious hazard.That's great but what do the traffic engineering standards say? In other words, it doesn't matter as much what you think, but rather it matters what the trained professionals think. If they agree with you then you're golden. Otherwise, you're in trouble. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:13:36 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by nostalgia on Tue Jun 28 23:14:41 2016. I know that. But what was in the manual in the past is irrelevant. Chud1 said "New York State DMV says i must STOP, LOOK AND LISTEN before i cross railroad tracks." That's in the PRESENT TENSE. He said that it SAYS it. Not that it has said it or used to say it. I pointed out that's he's incorrect. He made a claim and it was incorrect. That's all there is to it. If he wasn't absolutely sure he should have checked it before making his statement. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 00:14:16 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jun 28 17:40:51 2016. Of course, but consider how many people took driver's ed in High School. And consider how many remember their high school foreign language. Now remember, high school language class was over 300 minutes a week for at least three years, and driver's ed was maybe 20 hours total, over 3 months.In both cases, ten years later, you remember what you've used regularly and discarded what you didn't. Hell I've encountered idiots who don't know they can pass slow farm equipment by crossing the dotted yellow! Damn city boys! |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 00:18:10 2016, in response to What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 28 14:58:47 2016. Ah. Ok then, he's a lot more an idiot than it would have appeared.I wonder if vehicles transporting underage passengers should be required to stop at all railroad crossings. I mean, we don't trust a trained school bus driver to make that decision, but (for example) any idiot with a minivan full of soccer kids is perfectly allowed to make a judgement call on whether to stop at an unsignaled crossing? |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:20:37 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jun 29 00:07:51 2016. Since this took place in Colorado, and not in NY, our laws and operating rules don't matter.The subthread he was participating in was specifically discussing NY rules and not the rules in effect at the location of the accident. So his reply was not wrong in that specific regard. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:23:40 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 00:14:16 2016. I disagree. If you don't use your high school foreign language, then you may forget it. If you don't drive, then you may forget that too. But I think it's FAR FAR FAR more likely that someone who took driver's ed and got a license at the time will still be driving now (and have been driving this whole time) than someone who took a foreign language will still be speaking it with the same proficiency. So I don't consider you example to be a valid comparison. |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:24:48 2016, in response to Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 00:18:10 2016. No. There are likely one or more reasons why school buses must stop but normal passenger vehicles don't have to. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 29 00:28:06 2016, in response to What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by AlM on Tue Jun 28 14:58:47 2016. So what are you saying? He did a murder/suicide?You reveal yourself to have a morbid imagination. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jun 29 00:31:29 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:20:37 2016. Just trying (seemingly in vain) to nudge this back towards a discussion of issues actually relating to the incident. At various points earlier in the thread some of the things I was commenting about were discussed. |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 00:47:26 2016, in response to Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:24:48 2016. Nah, just a blatant oversight, one of those felt good at the time rules. Haz-mat trucks makes sense, but allowing minivans while disallowing school buses and city buses does not.A new rule to require a full stop by any vehicle transporting minors seems logical. There already laws requiring they sit in the back or have car seats and whatnot, this would simply be another thing on that level. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 01:06:59 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:23:40 2016. Of course. However if you keep mainly to interstates and cities/suburbs, you may never encounter such a crossing, so the rule will float out of your head just as easily as the French word for goat. I've driven through areas around here with more cows than people, and yet even the once-a-week 10MPH train crossings have lights (though not always gates).I realise in this case that is moot since the guy lived right next door to the thing. But in a broader sense, do you really expect an obscure, irrelevant (to many) rule to suddenly spring to mind upon encountering the first unsignaled railroad crossing they've seen in 20 years? There's rules with reminder signs like "slower traffic keep right" and "yield to traffic in circle" that people regularly ignore! |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 29 01:17:18 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 01:06:59 2016. Oui! Mon Chevre-rolet. :)And even on the Amtrak mainline through Albany, this is pretty much as good as it gets for many crossings with high speed trains:  Photo by our own Jersey Mike. :) |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 29 02:03:17 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 01:06:59 2016. But in a broader sense, do you really expect an obscure, irrelevant (to many) rule to suddenly spring to mind upon encountering the first unsignaled railroad crossing they've seen in 20 years?This whole thread seems very hypothetical. Can anyone actually point out a non-private crossing of a track carrying high speed trains that doesn't at least have a stop sign in addition to the cross bars? |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 29 02:05:48 2016, in response to Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jun 29 00:47:26 2016. Why should a full stop be required for selected private vehicles at a crossing that has gates? Far more likelihood of getting rear ended than hit by a train. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 29 02:07:11 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 29 02:03:17 2016. There does seem some argument that a stop sign is relevant, since that would apply to all vehicles. I posted one of Jersey Mike's photos that has a stop sign, but there are quite a few around here that do not - having only rhe RR crossing crossbucks and the "high speed trains" caution. No stop signs though. |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 29 02:09:05 2016, in response to Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 29 02:05:48 2016. For what it's worth, CSX does try to maintain their gates fairly well, but there have been incidents of trains hitting vehicles when they weren't down around here. Most people (including us) will stop unless we have a clear view down the tracks to make sure nothing's coming in either direction. Folks certainly DO slow down though, it's normal around here. |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 29 02:09:11 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 29 00:28:06 2016. So what are you saying? He did a murder/suicide?Absolutely not. My guess is that s/he was fatally distracted. You reveal yourself to have a morbid imagination. Why? I'm just stating facts and obvious conclusions. Do you disagree that the family lived right by the tracks? Do you disagree that a family could live right by the tracks and not know that high speed trains pass along that track? |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 29 02:11:27 2016, in response to Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 29 02:09:05 2016. I understand that gates can malfunction. But I would still contend that if a high speed road crosses a high speed track at a gated crossing, having a law that requires only certain passenger vehicles to stop is a recipe for more deaths than not having such a law. |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 29 02:20:13 2016, in response to Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 29 02:11:27 2016. Absolutely agree there. Having seen my share of train crossing fatalities over the years, I believe that ALL vehicles should stop and yield unless there's a really good view down the track for a distance which is not often the case.When I worked for the state and they killed the NY-SCAN channel, I was laid off for a month and a half in the early 90's and took a temporary gig with Conrail at Selkirk in the signal department. The actual work was replacing old and busted GE radios in locomotive cabs and repairing newer ones to take the place of the old crap and making sure they all worked. As part of the gig, a lot of wayside also uses radios and since I wasn't sure if I was going to want to stay or not, took Conrail education in signalling (at least the radio part at first) and learned that crossing signalling is pretty substantial and reliable. The failure rates are pretty rare. Even if local power goes out, there's battery backup and numerous chances to win there. Chances of a train/vehicle collision are actually pretty rare. But they DO happen. After volunteering for some Operation Lifesaver gigs as well at the time, I learned to be absolutely sure of the wayside even if the gates were up. :) |
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Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by nostalgia on Wed Jun 29 05:17:31 2016, in response to Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jun 29 00:07:33 2016. But then you went further and wrote that Chud had been driving incorrectly for 41 years. He decided to show more caution than required by the manual. You're the ONLY one who chastised him.Considering that there is a simultaneous thread abut Amtrak sticking a minivan, it only reinforces to be SAFE. |
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Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed Jun 29 07:44:24 2016, in response to Re: What everyone is overlooking Re: Amtrak train destroys minivan carrying 6 people, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 29 02:09:05 2016. That has nothing to do with this. |
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