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| Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 (1399947) | |
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| (1399947) | |
Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Jun 25 06:56:07 2016 Tuscarora Almanac - June 25, 1946 - The Book of Wrecks A fire in the Saint George Terminal of the Staten Island Rapid Transit Railway Company caused the death of the ticket agent and the destruction of eight ME-1 cars. The lost cars were nos: 307, 313, 316, 322, 333, 351, 377 and 390. Source: 1) "Staten Island Rapid Transit" by Mr. Paul Matus (1965) 2) Passenger Car Roster of the SIRTRyCo. by Mr. Larry Kiss (1966) Tuscarora Almanac - June 25, 1993 - The Book of Last Runs The last train of R-30’s and R-30A’s ran in service today on the “C” Concourse-8th Avenue-Fulton Street Local. The consist was R-30A 8408-8397 R-30 8322-8305 R-30 8298-8295 R-30A 8396-8393 The R-30's and the R-30A's along with the R-27's formed a homogenous group of 550 subway cars that came to dominate the southern Section of the BMT Division in the 1960's. The first units arrived in late 1960 and permitted the retirement of almost all of the un-rebuilt Standards along with the Multis, SIRT cars and the Lo-V's (on the BMT Division. The cars were arranged in "married pairs” . The even numbered car had the motor generator while the odd numbered car had the air compressor. For better or worse the roll-signs introduced BMT riders to subway routes which would now be identified by "letters." The original paint scheme was olive green on the outside with blue and gray interiors. They also featured coral pink fiberglass seats. After the opening of the Chrystie Street Subway in November 1967 they would see operation on much of the IND Division as well. As a group they suffered mightily from the lack of deferred maintenance and the general deterioration in the 1970's and early 1980's. In the mid - eighties 162 R-30's and R-30A's received a limited GOH (General Overhaul) which enabled them to soldier on for another eight years. Credit where it’s due Department: The consist of the last train comes for the NYD Bulletin of September 1993. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 22:08:27 2016, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Jun 25 06:56:07 2016. If photos on the NYC Subway site are of any indication, apparently R27/30/30A class cars began seeing some service on IND Division routes - namely, AA and CC - a few months prior to the first leg of the Chrystie Street connection opening, in summer 1967. Around that same time the R32/32A's also began appearing on the AA. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 26 07:23:45 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by W.B. on Sat Jun 25 22:08:27 2016. I don't remember seeing any R-32s on the AA until right after Chrystie St. I'd become a regular Saturday commuter in the fall of 1967 and used the 8th Ave. line from 42nd to 14th as part of my commute. After that Thanksgiving weekend, the AA and D became virtually all-R-32. I do remember seeing one R-27/30 trainset on the AA about that time. |
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| (1400049) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jun 26 16:32:13 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 26 07:23:45 2016. I lived in Wash Hts at the time and don’t recall seeing any R-27/30s on any IND lines any time prior to Chrystie. I do recall seeing a few trains of R-32s on the D line during the early fall of 1967 about a month or so before Chrystie, however. |
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| (1400077) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 26 20:49:51 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 26 16:32:13 2016. Come to think of it, that R-27/30 AA sighting may have been around 1968 or '69. Definitely not pre-Chrystie. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 26 22:08:49 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 26 07:23:45 2016. I rode the 8th Ave IND a lot back in 1967, when i was going to St John's Univ. never saw an R-32 on the 8th Ave line till Chrystie St. I remember that the R-32 had CHAMBERS STREET, instead of the R-1/9's HUDSON TERMINAL, on their front and side markers |
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| (1400173) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 27 15:20:50 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jun 26 20:49:51 2016. I became a M/M in late 1968 around the time the TA decided to paint most of its fleet in the tartar red paint scheme of the R-29-33s. On the way back home to Wash Hts one Sunday evening probably in early 1969, I observed a train of freshly painted R-27/30s pulling S/B into 59 St on the D which up until that time had only operated R-32s or R-9s. One of the M/M who was in my class told me that he was working CIYd that afternoon and the D Line needed a train and all that was available was that train of red R-27/30s and he was the one who put it in. |
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| (1400179) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jun 27 15:41:46 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 26 22:08:49 2016. The R-27s through 38s had both Chambers St and Hudson Terminal signs but since the crews at 168 St were used to displaying the Chambers St signs that the R-9s has, they simply changed the readings to what they were familiar with. In the iND days, some of the R-9s had Hudson Terminal signs and the readings depended on what the individual cars had. When the R-32s started to show up on the AA/B the crews displayed Chambers St since it was closer on the roll to the Coney Island readings used for the B service. If the R-32s had been used on the AA pre Chrystie, the trains would have probably displayed Hudson Terminal since that would have been closer to the 34/6 reading used on the BB service. On those cars, destination signs were grouped according to the locations used by the service that operated to make it easier for changing signs when the service patterns changed. The Chambers St reading was for use as a terminal for Eastern Div trains in the event the cars were ever used there. |
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| (1400207) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 27 19:11:02 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by randyo on Mon Jun 27 15:41:46 2016. IIRC the R-1s had Chambers St. signs originally. I have front destination curtains with either Chambers St. or Hudson Terminal (but not both in the same curtain. My lower side destination curtain has Hudson Terminal. I currently have it signed as an AA.I remember seeing both Chambers St. and Hudson Terminal side signs on the R-1/9s and R-32s. The side signs on the R-32s said, "Hudson Term'l." A nod, perhaps to the BMT standards, whose curtains probably had more truncations and abbreviations than any other car class. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 27 19:20:44 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 27 19:11:02 2016. I rode the 8th Ave IND quite a bit in 1966-1971. Never saw a "Hudson Term'l" sign. But, I'll take your word for it. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Jun 27 19:32:18 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 27 19:11:02 2016. I remember riding R-10s on the AA back in the mid 70s (and on the E line in 1980-81) and the front rollsign on the R-10s usually read "Hudson Terminal". |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 28 11:27:28 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jun 27 19:11:02 2016. Was it possible that the original section of the IND 8th Ave line had 2 separate markings? CHAMBERS ST, for "A" express trains and HUDSON TERMINAL, for "AA" locals? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jun 28 21:32:47 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 27 19:20:44 2016. Usually the R-32s on the AA sported Chambers St. signs. But once in a while I'd see a side Hudson Term'l sign. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jun 28 21:34:29 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 28 11:27:28 2016. Anything is possible. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jun 29 10:44:16 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 27 19:20:44 2016. Which would make sense:By then they likely knew that eventually was going to be renamed World Trade Center, so Chambers was logical. |
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| (1400414) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jun 29 10:45:26 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 28 11:27:28 2016. That would make sense since they went to two different platforms in the same station. |
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| (1400419) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jun 29 10:59:42 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jun 29 10:45:26 2016. And most people don't know that 'Chambers St' and 'Hudson Terminal/WTC' are actually one station technically. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 29 14:13:55 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jun 29 10:59:42 2016. I know about the Second System proposals, but why didn't they just build it like 7th Ave/53rd St? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 29 14:15:20 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Jun 28 21:32:47 2016. I must have been on a lot of "wrong" trains! |
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| (1400451) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 29 16:25:44 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 29 14:13:55 2016. As I have mentioned before in several posts, one of the proposals for the IND was to reclaim the BMT line between Cortlandt and Whitehall and connect it to Court St via a new tunnel utilizing the bellmouths S/O Whitehall. The tracks at the Hudson Terminal platform of the Chambers St complex were designed to facilitate such a connection which is why the platforms are staggered that way. |
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| (1400454) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jun 29 16:58:04 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jun 29 10:44:16 2016. See my post for the reason Chambers was used rather than Hudson Terminal. While I don’t recall at the moment, I believe that the R-38s in Queens used Hudson terminal since the reading was closer on the roll sign to the Bkln readings that the signs were changed from on Es returning from Euclid and the Rockaways. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jun 29 18:00:41 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 29 16:25:44 2016. IINM if you were to knock out the wall where the local tracks dead end, the BMT Broadway line is right there. |
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| (1400462) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jun 29 18:07:33 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 29 14:15:20 2016. It was the opposite on the R-1/9s. Usually AA trains would have Hudson Terminal signs showing, but once in a while I'd see a Chambers St. sign. |
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| (1400478) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 29 20:47:46 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 29 16:25:44 2016. DUH! I forgot all about the local track alignment with the BMT tracks for a possible connection. |
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| (1400490) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jun 30 02:21:52 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jun 29 20:47:46 2016. Right:The time for that to have happened would have been in 1966, when the World Trade Center was being built as the old buildings were being torn down. That might have forced the Broadway locals to terminate at City Hall (where such local trains actually were originally supposed to terminate) with most likely the (E) in that scenario eventually winding up being the line running today between 95th and Jamaica Center (as an express in Queens and local in Manhattan and Brooklyn). |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Jun 30 06:45:44 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jun 30 02:21:52 2016. Why would that be any better? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Jun 30 09:15:02 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 29 16:25:44 2016. Interestingly, they could theoretically have both the IND and BMT using the BMT line between Cortlandt and Whitehall without exceeding the 30 TPH limit on any track by having a flat junction at the north end of Cortlandt St and having the IND Court St line branch off from the 2 levels of the Montague tunnel slightly north of the merge with the Nassau cut, but all this would depend on precise timing of the trains. |
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| (1400534) | |
Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jun 30 16:09:13 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by VictorM on Thu Jun 30 09:15:02 2016. The problem would be that it would have to be a flat junction and it’s really not a good idea to have any more of those. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Jun 30 23:58:19 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by randyo on Wed Jun 29 16:25:44 2016. re: "one of the proposals for the IND was to reclaim the BMT line..."Thank you Randyo, I did not know about this proposed plan prior to this post. and going for periods from a couple of days to week or much, much longer, without checking Subchat, I did not see your other posts. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jul 1 07:06:01 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Jun 29 18:00:41 2016. Steve- which local tracks are you referring to? Sounds to me like you're talking about where the E train ends- but there's no wall there.... |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jul 1 07:12:48 2016, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 25, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 28 11:27:28 2016. During a renovation in 1998 or so, I saw IND black tiles along the outer passageway (outside of fare control, where you can see the E through the fence to your left if headed towards the WTC) that indicated "H and M" in 3 tile sets- an "H", the word "AND" in tiny capital letters on one tile, and an "M". AFAIK, that's the only time the IND put more than one letter on a tile.I think up till this reno, those tiles had been covered by strategically placed advertisements, I'm guessing at the demand of the Port Authority. Anyway, they were soon covered by new tiles, in renovated IND style indicating "CHAMBERS". Personally, I wish all the IND stations- but especially those name tablets, were restored to their original looks. |
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