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| Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? (1397161) | |
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Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 25 20:26:20 2016, in response to Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 20:16:28 2016. You're saying you have a great practical idea that the authors of the F Line Study didn't think of? |
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| (1397189) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed May 25 22:27:41 2016, in response to Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 20:16:28 2016. SI 93 asks:So can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at Church Av when express service begins in the fall 2017 instead of terminating at Kings Highway and going back to Manhattan (except those that are going back to Avenue X Yard would have to terminate at Kings Highway)? My answer: Of course they can. The question is not whether something "can" be done, it is whether something "should" be done. There is a difference between "can" and "should". Right now the F-line terminates F-trains in Brooklyn at the Kings Highway station, and the Coney Island terminal, while also sending trains to and from the Coney Island train yard at Avenue X. This kind of well understood operation has taken place for decades. The Church Avenue station has a lower level 4-track train layup and relay area which is currently used to terminate and relay G-trains. Each of the layup/relay tracks can hold a 600-feet regular train, and every track can be used for the terminate and relay operation to return a train to passenger service. Since current G-trains are 300-feet in length - 2 of such G-trains can "fit" on one layup track Considering the length of the ramps that lead both to and from this layup area and given the lengths of current G-trains, a small number of trains could be held in that storage area, while still allowing the regular terminate and relay operation of the G-line. There is a certain kind of efficiency to the whole operation because of the shorter G-trains. Full length F-trains would change the current operation and practices that storage place. Having both short G-trains, and full-length F-trains terminate and relay at that station would change the mix of layup tracks that have to held completely free versus partially occupied. This could bring about certain kinds of inefficient and time consuming operations at the Church Avenue station. Can F-trains be terminated at Church Avenue? Of course they can - the Church Avenue station was the full-time 24/7/365 terminal of the full-size trains on that route before its connection to the Culver elevated section. Should F-trains be terminated at the Church Avenue station during the rush hours? My answer is probably not. Mike |
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| (1397191) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 22:42:42 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 25 20:26:20 2016. It's a great idea. |
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| (1397193) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 22:46:40 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 22:42:42 2016. My other question is when the station renovations south of 18th Av begins June 7, some trains from Manhattan can't terminate at Kings Highway and so my question is will some of these trains from Manhattan terminate at Church Av since Kings Highway can't be used as a turning point. |
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| (1397194) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 25 23:01:01 2016, in response to Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 20:16:28 2016. No. The G train already terminates there. |
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| (1397196) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Wed May 25 23:03:15 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 22:42:42 2016. Are you sure? |
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| (1397197) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Wed May 25 23:10:31 2016, in response to Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 20:16:28 2016. Technically F locals can terminate at Church but practically wouldn't be a good idea. The G and the F would both terminate and relay at Church on the same track it would easily back up similar to the problems at Continental on the M and R. |
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| (1397201) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 25 23:57:41 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by ftgreeneg on Wed May 25 23:10:31 2016. Worse at Church.A train waiting to come out from the lead into CTL station is clear of all switches so another train leaving CTL can go into the relay. Church is set up differently. The lead coming out to the station only has 300' between the station and the relay/layup tracks. Therefore a 600' train could be across switches preventing the next train from going in. And we have ideas floating here that both G and some F trains can terminate at Church? Not happening! |
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| (1397217) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Thu May 26 07:54:19 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Michael549 on Wed May 25 22:27:41 2016. >> the Church Avenue station was the full-time 24/7/365 terminal of the full-size trains on that route before its connection to the Culver elevated section.Very good point that people ignore. |
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| (1397240) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu May 26 11:03:45 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SI 93 on Wed May 25 22:46:40 2016. Your question:My other question is when the station renovations south of 18th Av begins June 7, some trains from Manhattan can't terminate at Kings Highway and so my question is will some of these trains from Manhattan terminate at Church Av since Kings Highway can't be used as a turning point. My answer: Those trains that would have terminated at Kings Highway but can not, can easily be sent to Avenue X, and then returned to service. Avenue X is the gateway for trains coming to and leaving the Coney Island train yard. Plenty of current trains that go out of service at Kings Highway, or originate at Kings Highway come from or go to the train yard at some point. Mike |
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| (1397265) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu May 26 15:28:27 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Thu May 26 07:54:19 2016. Lou from Brooklyn says:Very good point that people ignore. --------- Thank you. The Church Avenue station of the IND Culver Line opened on October 7, 1933, with four tracks and two island platforms, and a four track yard south of the station which is used for storing and turning trains. In anticipation of a connection to BMT Culver line, a ramp of 4 connecting tracks was built. On October 30, 1954 the tracks on this ramp were connected to the three track elevated line and the Ditmas Avenue station and opened for service. This ramp connection allowed full-length D-trains to travel between the Bronx and Coney Island. Basically the Church Avenue station was the terminal for full length A-trains, E-trains, D-trains and F-trains - through out the early life of the station, from 1933 to 1954. Some train fans would allow us to think that some how the train dispatchers and managers at the Church Avenue terminal can not manage the daily traffic of full-length trains to use the 4 full-length layup tracks between trains entering and leaving the terminal / layup area for 21 straight years of train service 24/7/365. I do not understand that. Mike |
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| (1397272) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu May 26 17:15:12 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Michael549 on Thu May 26 15:28:27 2016. Oh, and full-length G-trains!Mike |
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| (1397275) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 26 17:47:03 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Michael549 on Thu May 26 15:28:27 2016. Because today you have the speed restrictions you didn't have then.Relaying an R1/9 was quicker because emergency brakes did not have the be applied when changing directions. With R10 and up there is "penalty time" (waiting time) between when emergency brakes are applied and when the train is recharged and ready to move. Every second counts. |
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| (1397277) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu May 26 18:26:06 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 26 17:47:03 2016. Not only that, but the arnines (if on level ground) would let you leave them in release with handle out, change ends, and go. I always liked that part about them. |
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| (1397278) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 26 19:13:45 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu May 26 18:26:06 2016. I almost always l4eft the brakes in release ant a normal station, but I would never leave them released and leave the cab to change ends. I either placed BIE or made a 20 lb reduction. |
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| (1397279) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 26 19:37:19 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 26 17:47:03 2016. And they were always "double ended" (switchman on end of the train) to expedite the move.Today we don't have switchmen falling all over each other at the terminals. No guarantee you'll have WAA t/o's around. |
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| (1397280) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu May 26 19:43:27 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 26 19:37:19 2016. so, inorder to do this expeditiously, the TA needs to deploy fallback staffing which should give crewsat least a quick visit to the bathrooms. Seems a win-win to me. |
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| (1397297) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu May 26 23:36:38 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by randyo on Thu May 26 19:13:45 2016. Should have been clearer there, electric brake was lit. But that's technically "release." with just the cylinders hanging on. One of Uncle Paul's tricks. :) |
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| (1397308) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by sitechboy on Fri May 27 04:12:27 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu May 26 23:36:38 2016. also not mentioned. church ave has the fumigation factor. |
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| (1397320) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Fri May 27 08:03:56 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu May 26 18:26:06 2016. Top Charge? |
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| (1397359) | |
Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri May 27 15:48:14 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 26 17:47:03 2016. Understand:If you saying that certain models of train models allowed quicker operation through the layup tracks maybe compared to some other models of trains. Or that the scheduling of terminating trains might need a review to reduce conflicts, or that one or two of the four full-length layup tracks would always have to be open to receive and release trains. I'd say fine. If you saying that switch-men or other train operators may be needed to help quickly turn trains around. Or that fallback staffing would help to give train crews at least a quick visit to the bathrooms. I'd still say fine. If you said that the process of discharging of passengers might have to be improved before any trains enter the layup area. Yes, improved methods could help many routes - not just the F-trains or G-trains of whatever length. I'd still say fine. All of that is a very different thing from saying that the physical train station that was designed from the ground up to be a train terminal somehow can no longer perform that function when the characteristics of the train switch/layup area has NOT CHANGED in any substantial way from the day it was designed and built! The above statements where I said "fine" - are what could be called train and personnel management issues - which frankly can be worked on. I believe there are procedures or rules that train dispatchers, train management people, union folk, etc. use and refer to so that train crews have bathroom breaks, etc. That is a people & staff management issue not a physical characteristics of the train station layout issue. It is not about well, "Technically F locals can terminate at Church ..." It is not "technically" - the basic features that allowed that to occur are very much present and used today, and have been present since 1934! Nothing I have said was a suggestion to terminate F-trains there. I simply said it was possible. I never made such a proposal as a remedy for the ridership problems on that line. Others tried to say it was "impossible". Really? It is just that there is a big difference between saying something "might not be a good idea", and saying something is IMPOSSIBLE. Mike -------- PS: The 57th Street-Sixth Avenue station could be an example of a station built as a terminal where NOW it would not be a good idea to regularly terminate trains there. Why? The characteristics AND the physical nature of the station itself has changed in a VERY SUBSTANTIAL WAY! That moves the discussion of terminating trains at 57th Street-Sixth Avenue from a "while it is not impossible" to a "it is not a very good idea" on a regular basis. And I would agree. And just to be clear, am I in no way suggesting trains get turned at that station regularly! PS: At the Freeman Street #2 & #5 station in the Bronx there used to be a set of track switches arranged in a "full-X" across all of the tracks from the days when the Second or Third Avenue elevated train terminated there. Those switches were completely removed making it impossible to terminate trains or to simply switch trains from one track to another in case of problems. The capabilities of the station changed in a substantial way making a prior activity not possible today. PSS: I would shout to the rafters that it is IMPOSSIBLE to route ANY IND trains (or BMT Trains or IRT Trains) along the Third Avenue Transit line in Manhattan!! Whether Wallyhorse or another forum person proposed such a plan, I'd say is IMPOSSIBLE TODAY to do so! Forget, "well "technically" .. nah, today it is impossible! LOL! |
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Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri May 27 16:22:47 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 26 19:37:19 2016. There may not be switchmen falling over each other but in locations where double ending is needed like 205 St, there will be sufficient numbers to double end the moves. |
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Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri May 27 16:59:50 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Fri May 27 08:03:56 2016. Yep. |
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Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017? |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri May 27 22:48:11 2016, in response to Re: Can F local trains from Manhattan terminate at CHurch Av when express service begins in fall 2017?, posted by Michael549 on Fri May 27 15:48:14 2016. Thanks for the Freeman street info. This is one more interesting piece of IRT history. |
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