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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Fri Apr 29 11:53:50 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by Joe V on Thu Apr 28 12:46:09 2016. I like everyone else know's these cars were old then but to still use the elevated structure with lighter cars would have benefited the area more so than the jokingly bus service it now has, and would have been great to have a Q car train for excursions from time to time. Karl |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Apr 29 18:41:59 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Apr 29 01:43:39 2016. I’m not sure about the composite trucks being lower horsepower that the Q’s original trucks, however I do know that maximum traction trucks do not work well with trailers in the consist. The BMT steels had maximum traction trucks and when they were combined into the BX units with the 4000 series trailers in the unit, only one BX unit was permitted in a train and when trains were cut to 3 car consists, single BX units were not to be operated in passenger service. BXs were also banned from the Manny B although a few old timers mentioned that ban was sometimes ignored. Not only were composites not allowed on the 9 Av El, but I was told that only the oldest of the MUDCs, the ones with the lightest frames could be operated there. As for the composites having to use the 9 Av el to access the Polo Grounds shuttle, there was no reason why they couldn’t have operated via the 3 Av el to the one of the Bronx yards like West Farms or E 180 where the appropriate 3rd rail shoes could have been installed for transfer to the Polo Grounds Shuttle. It would have required 2 shoe installations, one for subway shoes to get them to Mosholu Barn where the modified subway shoes for operation through the Anderson Av tunnel which could not clear regular subway shoes could be installed. |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Apr 30 10:26:03 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Apr 29 01:43:39 2016. Whew!:) |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Apr 30 10:28:51 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Apr 28 13:56:57 2016. One word comes to mind: TIMMMM-BERRRRRR!!!!!:) |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Sat Apr 30 12:11:09 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Apr 29 01:43:39 2016. Very interesting. |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Apr 30 14:59:43 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Fri Apr 29 01:43:39 2016. Thanks for posting that!It does dampen my enthusiasm a little for the old els - they even had trouble with el cars of that era. :-S |
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| (1394083) | |
Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 30 21:08:24 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by randyo on Fri Apr 29 18:41:59 2016. Besides their age, the Composites were retired and stripped of their trucks because they required someone to operate the manual end doors, similar to the gate cars. More of an economy measure. Correct?Because the Board of Transportation did not know what ridership would be on the Polo Grounds shuttle, it had the IRT send 5 Three-car trains of Composites down the South Ferry Spur and up the 9th Ave el, to Jerome Ave, on June 10th, 1940. |
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| (1394144) | |
Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun May 1 11:36:45 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by randyo on Fri Apr 29 18:41:59 2016. If there was one subway car that could have benefitted from beefier motors, it was the BMT standards. |
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| (1394170) | |
Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun May 1 16:25:08 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Apr 30 21:08:24 2016. Hello EL KEEPER and Randy-OEL KEEPER -- Yes, that is correct re: the date and the Composites )Around South Ferry" move to the west side.. A railway historian actually witnessed some of that move (name escapes me now) RANDY-O -- while your assumption of that round-about and very cumbersome and labor-movement-intensive Composite cars "transfer move" could have been done, if, lets say, that single connecting track at South Ferry junction, connecting the East & West side Manhattan EL systems had been REMOVED previous to 1940 -- that move would not have been done because it was so cumbersome...as follows: (a)-- From 3rd Ave EL northward to either E.180th St or E.239th St Shops, Yards, of the White Plains Rd. Line EL, to then remove EL type 3rd rail shoes and substitute subway paddle shoes on all cars; (b)-- then run the Composites south (from either of those 2 shops, yards) on the White Plains Rd Line EL to E.149th Street (Grand Concourse) Subway Station and Junction - and up-ramp at the Junction there to the East side IRT and Woodlawn Line .... (c) -- and then south upon same to below the E. 138th Street (or 125th St) interlocking -- and reverse ends there, then head back north up the Woodlawn-Jerome Line to Woodlawn yards-Shops... (d) -- remove the earlier-installed subway paddle 3rd rail shoes and replace them with either the original EL Style Drop sled 3rd rail shoes or install new cut back paddle 3rd rail shoes for the Anderson Ave. Tunnel wall clearances. (e) -- then, after completing all that, run them from the Woodlawn Yard/ Shops southward down the Woodlawn Line EL to the 9th Ave EL connection Jct. ramps located below E.167th St Station, and down to and over on to the 9th Ave. El W.155th St Station. It was far way simpler, easier and much faster, less labor intensive, to just run them "as is" - as was actually done - southward on the 3rd Ave EL, under their own power, and "around the horn" at South Ferry, and northward up the 9th Ave. EL to W.155th Street Station and the Polo Grounds W.159th St. Yards. Running them (Composites) empty on any tracks of the 9th Ave. EL at that point, a one time move special, was not going to have any permanent or any detrimental stress levels whatsoever to that EL line structure -- especially that EL Line which was to be permanently closed within days anyway and later demolished ! NOTE: you already know that the Woodlawn EL had DUAL 3rd Rails on all tracks from Woodlawn Yards-Shops as far south as to the Junction of the 9th Ave. EL two connection down-ramps -- the two 9th Ave El down-Ramps which themselves had ONLY the single Manhattan "EL" type 3rd rail. The Woodlawn Line EL local tracks after passing the connective-tracks interlocking north of -- and heading southward along the sides those 2 EL down ramp tracks, had solely Subway Style covered 3rd rail, and ONLY the Woodlawn line center express track continued past that interlocking had dual 3rd rails south to, with the EL STYLE 3rd Rail ending, one block below the E. 161st Street Station, for EL gate car train night and mid-day rush layups for S/B 9th Ave El evening rush hour Gate Car trains. (YES, I have a photo of EL trains stored at E.161St Station !) regards - Joe F |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 1 18:19:15 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun May 1 16:25:08 2016. Actually, it wouldn’t have been a round about move at all since the composites were maintained, inspected and laid up at one of the Bronx yards anyhow so they could have had the subway shoes installed there for the transfer move. Then rather than go south on the 3 Av El they could merely go south via the Westchester Av structure to 138/Gr Conc the way the Lex Expresses do, change ends at 138 middle and proceed straight up the Jerome line on either the N/B lcl tk or the middle tk to Mosholu Yd where the modified subway shoes could be installed. It really wouldn’t have been any more labor intensive that going through So/Fy and would actually taken less time since they probably would have had to go to Mosholu Barn anyhow for final outfitting and inspection. |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun May 1 20:17:47 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by randyo on Sun May 1 18:19:15 2016. Randy O-- Anyone HERE in transit (we all know YOU were a long time employee) reading what you just stated likely would not agree with that at all --- per the IMPRACTICAL time and labor needed and taken to perform all that manual work for changeover of shoes (4 shoes a car) work and do those back and forth between yards and subway tunnel moves would be most time consuming and labor intensive. The IRT was extremely cheap, thrifty and cost-labor sensitive, even operating in Bankruptcy in June 1940 ! The time to run a a few separate trains of composites from, lets say, even the Harlem River Yards, shops, at E. 129th Street (still in full use in June 1940) down the Manhattan 3rd Ave EL, (or 2nd Ave.EL ) and around the South Ferry Horn, and up to West 155th street, non-revenue-non stop on express tracks under special order moves....would be around 1 hour or less each train -- as the general running time speed from Harlem River to South Ferry non stop would be about 1/2 hour or less...and same from there to W. 155th Street. Also, as you SHOULD know -- during that June 1940 transfer move, Composites were variously shopped, maintained, at the E.99th Street, E.129th Street, and E.179th Street Yards and Shops -- all being immediately along the 3rd Ave EL Line. Only MAJOR HEAVY OVERHAUL was done at E.239th St Shops and Yards, and then mainly for the steel subway fleet. East 99th Street also carried out heavy overhaul and major repairs. History: -- The E.129th St Yards were diminished in use by 1941, and abandoned and removed 1942. The E. 99th Street yards and shops, along with the E. 179th St Yard and shops, were closed variously between late 1949 and early 1950. By early 1950 the Composites were out of service, and ALL remaining 3rd Ave EL fleet CARS WERE shopped and repaired and maintained mostly at E. 239th St Yards. Sorry, but I must disagree with you...AND - the IRT did chose the transfer route and method as being practical, as I related. Even tho your route and plan would have been possible and likely necessary HAD the South Ferry single "east to west" connection track been not existing at the time. As it was, that track was removed and catwalk-planked-over sometime in late 1940, as not needed, which the removal of the 9th (and 6th) Ave. El connection at South Ferry regards - Joe F |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon May 2 13:54:55 2016, in response to VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by Dj Hammers on Tue Apr 26 20:13:08 2016. I was only up there a few times 50-some years ago. We were in NY for the '64 World's Fair. Went out to Jamaica with the Ridgewood relatives. For some reason we couldn't change to the 14th St line coming back. We had to stay on to Myrtle and change to get to Knickerbocker and hoof it back to Harman St. Being from California, I was rather nervous from how it shook when trains came through. |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 2 17:38:28 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun May 1 20:17:47 2016. The cheapness of the IRT was of little consequence since the time of the move was after unification so it would have been on the city[’s dime (or nickel). Although the move described via 9 Av would have been logistically possible, I was told that even the MUDCs used on 9 Av were the older and lighter weight cars due to the weakness of the structure. It seems interesting that the city would attempt such a move even with restricted speed and extreme caution since even a very slightly overweight train could have damaged the structure and possibly cause a serious accident. |
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| (1394309) | |
Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon May 2 21:09:11 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by randyo on Mon May 2 17:38:28 2016. Hello again Randy-O !!What you obviously and understandably forgot about was the fact that a 5 or 6 car train of even Wooden framed (not withstanding the later 1908-10 steel framed IRT EL cars) IRT EL Gate Cars or MUDC EL Cars, loaded with non rush hour passengers and even more so with rush hour crowd passengers, is FAR HEAVIER than EACH of a few very short, and time-spaced very far apart, trains of EMPTY composites running in a convoy of one-time transfer moves on the 9th Avenue EL on the center track...in off peak hours. I can't remember exactly now, but I seem to remember the witness (a noted railway historian of the time) of these few moves back then, stating the few consists were 4 cars in length...but don't quote me. The use of the Composites operating EMPTY on the center track thus spread out the weight factor evenly across the structure and supporting pairs of EL columns. And specifically, it was the certain portions of the EL structure BELOW W. 60th Street which had some of the very oldest and weaker EL Columns and structural sections and strict weight restrictions. The 9th Ave. EL structure from 61st Street north, thru the West 80's, was equivalent to the 3rd Avenue EL Line's "reinforced tops" TRENTON style columns-supported structure -- and more specifically, in the high West 90's Harlem section thru to the W.155th Street Station, the 9th Ave. EL structure was built to 2nd Ave EL stronger Standards and appearance using heavier lattice spans and the heavier solid round "Phoenix" EL Columns. So the few far spaced apart "transfer consists" of 3 or 4 composite cars running empty would not have adversely affected the 9th Ave Structures --- however the Composites could NOT operate on ANY tracks on that line WITH ANY NORMAL or ANY Rush Hour PASSENGER LOADS for any reason - mainly because of the below W. 60th Street 1875-77 built and added-on--to piece-meal segments of unimproved structures. As especially not in any daily regular express service. The same held true for the 3rd Ave EL South ferry Branch (structures over Pearl Street and Front Street) So that is the reason that route was chosen to transfer those relatively few Composites to the Polo Grounds Line -- and done only within a few days before the 9th Ave. EL line shut down permanently. PS: Always enjoy conversing and swapping history with you ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue May 3 13:12:32 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon May 2 21:09:11 2016. joe,I believe your witness was bernie linder. |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 3 15:27:52 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon May 2 21:09:11 2016. As I wrote before, on 06/10/40, five 3-car sets of Composites were sent down the South Ferry Spur and up the 9th Ave El to Jerome Ave. At the time, the City had no idea of what the shuttle ridership would be. The cars would become the original service for the Burnside Ave- Polo Grounds Shuttle. The South Ferry spur was then inspected for any problems due to the Composites' weight. No problems were found. The 9th Ave el was not inspected because it was to be shut down at 12:01AM, the next day- 06/11/40. The 3-car Composites ran for about a year, until shuttle ridership declined to the point where only 2-car trains were needed. Service was also cut back to 167th St, at the same time. |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue May 3 15:57:10 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 3 15:27:52 2016. Hello EL KeeperTHANKS for that info (again) -- I knew it was likely LESS than 4 car consists --- 3 cars seemed more logical that 2 car trains -- and I knew it was a day or so before the 9th Ave El closed permanently. I just remembered that I saved your text on that subject -- (just as I do to any other reliable NY Transit historical tidbits in print that i come across) and just found it it and read it again. Again, appreciated that you provided that specific "Composites transfer" info to go with my lengthy posted info on the subject ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue May 3 16:01:22 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue May 3 13:12:32 2016. Hello Steve ! T-Rat)YES !! That IS whom it was -- and thanks also for providing that infro here. Bernie should get the witness credit for being there. I think it was by pure chance that he was where he was that day and caught that VERY UNUSUAL transfer move, if I recall correctly ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 3 16:02:26 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue May 3 15:57:10 2016. You are welcome, Joe. However, i can't find the date that the shuttle went from 3 to 2 cars, but I believe it may have been in June, 1941. Anyone know? |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by randyo on Tue May 3 16:04:51 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue May 3 16:01:22 2016. Bernie usually was able to catch things many of us wish we had. |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue May 3 16:25:47 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by randyo on Tue May 3 16:04:51 2016. Hello again Randy OYes, he was -- and I wish he had his CAMERA with him that particular day --- usually the way it happens with a one time chance event like that...and the camera is home !!. Not like today's ever present CELL PHONE CAMERAS and TABLET cameras ! And lucky Bernie was around back in 1940 as an adult, traveling around, taking notes, photos, and continually history-recording things ...just like we did in our times in the 1950's era to present -- to relate and share them in places like over here. regards - Joe F |
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Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed May 4 10:09:11 2016, in response to Re: VIDEO: SPECIAL - Scenes from the Abandoned Upper Level of Myrtle Avenue Station, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Tue May 3 16:01:22 2016. joe,it was by choisr,not chance he was there. |
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