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J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016

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The is no question that the 4Th avenue subway has suffered since the removal of the M line several years ago.
Even the MTA has somewhat acknowledged this fact.
The cure to the R lines woes are essentially simple as adding 2 plus 2...a supplemental service to take up the slack.
The J is the perfect candidate if it were enhanced on Both ends.
As we all know..rush hour service has been a joke ever since 1988..
We need a full time Broadway Brooklyn express,along with a full peak period skip stop service along Jamaica ave and Fulton st.
4Th ave needs a full time service to replace the shuttle...but not a full 600ft train.
It needs a supplemental service to replace the hole left by the M...it needs a perminent Gap service to cover the Usual long waits between R trains as due to merging conflicts...

A J line extension will also restore a broken problem concerning connectivity between Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn..

1) Return the J line to pre 1976 levels of service...full Broadway Express service between Essex and East New York.
Skip stop rush hour service between Jamaica and ENY lasting the entire peak period.
Extend J trains to 95th street as the full time 4th ave Local...move R trains to the former 9th ave terminal.
2)enhance Z train service to operate weekdays all day as the local service between Broad st and ENY.Rush hours from Jamaica as it does now.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by italianstallion on Thu Feb 4 23:56:50 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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If the J runs express on Broadway while the Z runs local, how can the skip-stop of J and Z work? Those stuck on Z stops will complain they are getting the shaft.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 5 01:42:47 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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No

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Edwards! on Fri Feb 5 02:17:44 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Feb 5 01:42:47 2016.

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So?
You're an asshole.
Who cares what you think?

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Fri Feb 5 04:22:54 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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I agree with most every point you made concerning restoration of the full Broadway Brooklyn Express (and skip-stop) like during the time of the QJ. Not only would it benefit J/Z train riders, it would also help the very overcrowded E by providing a more attractive option to some E riders. So restoration of a "normal hours" full Broadway Brooklyn Express would benefit riders not just on the Jamaica Line, but on the Queens Boulevard Line as well. Ergo the restoration of the full Broadway Brooklyn Express should be a TA priority.

To me, the major question is, how to do it? There are two limitations, as I see it (excluding the TA's natural stubborn unwillingness to make changes of any kind).
1. Is there enough rolling stock?
2. The upcoming 3-year shut down of the 14th St.-Canarsie Line.

Here's what I would suggest for the upcoming 3-year shutdown:
1. Send Canarsie trains via the Broadway Brooklyn Local to Broad St. at all times. Rush hours and normal hours, weekdays, 6:00 AM to 10:30 PM, extend the routing of alternate trains to 95th St.-Fort Hamilton. All other times terminating at Broad St. This might be doable with the R143 rolling stock freed up from the L line closure.
2. During the 3-year period, restore the Atlantic Av. station and beyond, to full use as a terminal for the Broadway Brooklyn Local. By then, too, hopefully, R179s will have arrived and R32s will not be scrapped so that there'd be enough rolling stock.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 5 05:53:24 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Fri Feb 5 04:22:54 2016.

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As previously noted, my plan to do this that would would split up the (J) and (Z) into bona-fide separate lines that would meet at Chambers Street:

In this scenario, the (J) is truncated full-time to Chambers Street and terminates on the "express" tracks there since the (Z) would pick up Broad and Fulton Streets with that line 24/7, running as follows:

Weekdays (5:30 AM-11:00 PM):
New (Z) is essentially the old "Brown (R) Bankers Special," except this version would be running both ways between Chambers and 95th Street-Bay Ridge at all times.  During the week, coming north the line terminates on the northbound "local" track at Chambers, then after fumigation goes past the switches on the old northbound local/bridge track.  As soon as there is no traffic, such (Z) trains would cross over to the southbound "local" track for the return trip to Brooklyn. 

By design, this would have a (J) train coming from the north at Chambers Street meet a (Z) train coming from the north, with the reverse true on the south end. As this new (Z) train would run with most likely a maximum of 8 trains per hour (even at peak hours) as it is designed to be a supplement to the (R) in Brooklyn and NOT replace it, during rush hours the handful of (J) trains NOT slated to meet a (Z) train at Chambers would continue to Broad Street and terminate there, then start back at Broad to Jamaica Center. All such trains (plus a few others that do run to Chambers) would have a <J> designation in skip-stop along the portion between Broadway Junction and Jamaica Center stop at stations currently served by the (Z) (while trains marked (J) would do skip-stop at stations currently served by the (J) at those times).

All other times (11:00 PM-5:30 AM weekdays AND 11:00 PM Friday-5:30 AM Monday):
New (Z) is extended to Metropolitan Avenue to absorb the current (M) shuttles during those hours, running from there to 95th Street. This also absorbs the current late-night (R) shuttle as well.

Probably the best way to at least address the Brooklyn issues as unless you were going to the NYSE or other places in lower Manhattan (and weekends and late nights parts of Willamsburg), most people would use this (Z) to where they transfer to other trains, which would be its main purpose.

This also likely allows for other services to use the Broadway-Brooklyn during the upcoming (L) shutdown, including most likely a beefed-up (M) (with as I would do it having such trains designated as "Orange (T)" running to 96th Street-2nd Avenue).

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 5 06:03:37 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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Return the J line to pre 1976 levels of service...full Broadway Express service between Essex and East New York.

In my drunker moments, I'm tempted to argue that this is probably one of those things that would a little bit better by just going OPTO with 5 car sets with slightly improved headways, and by purchasing rolling stock that isn't so, um, slow. :-)

Extend J trains to 95th street as the full time 4th ave Local...move R trains to the former 9th ave terminal.

Which leads to an interesting question. Would 4th Avenue riders take a more reliable ride but be forced transfer to anywhere beyond downtown Brooklyn and the eastern portions of Lower Manhattan?

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:35:33 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Feb 5 06:03:37 2016.

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Back in the Brown M's later days (2008+) I watched it pull into Broad Street, from Brooklyn. There were a decent number of people on board.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:48:56 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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I like this idea. In my observations of the Brown M's later days, decent numbers of people used it between Essex and Marcy, and between Broad and Court. But VERY few seemed to ride from Court to Essex.

So- perhaps the 4th Avenue local situation could be resolved with a new brown R- but to avoid confusion, let's call it the X. It can run between Chambers and 9th Ave., rush hours only.

I'd also love to see full peak-direction express service on Broadway-Brooklyn. But that may be more the rail fan in me. Is it really needed? I'll take your word that it is. With that in mind, it seems a little illogical (to me) to turn around a south Brooklyn service at Chambers and simultaneously a north Brooklyn service at Broad St. So maybe, it is most sensible to run a through service. In that case, to avoid confusion, here's what I'd do:

1) Run the J, full-time local between JC and Broad. Real simple.
2) Run the Z peak-direction only, full express on Broadway, to Broad St.
3) AM Rush- At Broad St, the Z appears to "terminate" on the map, but in fact, the trainsets get re-signed as the X to 9th Ave. Incoming X trains from Brooklyn become the J, and head back to JC
4) PM rush- At broad St- Incoming X trains from Brooklyn become the J. A selected number of J trains coming from Queens become the Brooklyn-bound X

With NTTs, changing the signs is a simple thing. The public is simply told that the X operates bi-directionally as a rush hour local between 9th Avenue and Broad Street (via 4th Ave), while the Z is peak-direction express between Broad and Jamaica Center. Only TA employees and railfans such as us will know that X and Z trains are the same thing.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:54:27 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:48:56 2016.

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* I meant to say that in the PM rush, X trains coming in to Broad Street from Brooklyn change over to Z express trains. Some J's from Queens convert to Brooklyn-bound X's

True J locals turn around where they do now- at Broad Street.

My whole plan provides the following benefits, with minimal confusion:
* Bi-directional, 4th Avenue-Nassau Street local service
* Express service from East New York to Marcy Avenue
* Broadway (Bkln) customers KNOW that the J is the local(and other than weekend GOs, it always is) and the Z is the rush hour, peak-direction express.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by BrooklynTrain on Fri Feb 5 08:51:15 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:48:56 2016.

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A 9th Ave terminal would cause delays on the southbound D, N and R trains. What happens when the D and 9th-Ave bound local are both waiting at 36th as was all too common? Everything backs up. I've seen it over and over when the old M was running. Whatever train is on the local, has to continue on the local to 95th to avoid merging delays. Don't cross it over to the D express line and delay all the trains.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 09:52:08 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Fri Feb 5 04:22:54 2016.

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1. Send Canarsie trains via the Broadway Brooklyn Local to Broad St. at all times. Rush hours and normal hours, weekdays, 6:00 AM to 10:30 PM, extend the routing of alternate trains to 95th St.-Fort Hamilton. All other times terminating at Broad St. This might be doable with the R143 rolling stock freed up from the L line closure.

During the L closure, they are going have to get all those L riders to midtown, not downtown. Supplementary trains are going to go up 6th Ave, maybe turning at Queens Plaza, not down to Broad Street.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 09:53:54 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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The J/Z is already less crowded than many other B Division lines. Stephen Bauman published some stats a while ago.

No way that increasing J/Z service is a high priority compared to other lines that are more crowded.

During the L shutdown, there will be more M service, that's for sure. But not more J/Z service probably.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 5 10:11:26 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 09:52:08 2016.

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Yeah, sending them to the Nassau line does little to help, and will only further stress the m train

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 5 10:11:58 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 09:53:54 2016.

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Absolutely correct.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by twarrior3dc on Fri Feb 5 10:21:28 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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When the SAS opens, the W train will likely be revived from Astoria to Whitehall, it would make more sense to extend the W along 4th Ave during rush hours than the J/Z as it goes to more places people want to go.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 10:40:31 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by twarrior3dc on Fri Feb 5 10:21:28 2016.

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All you need is cars ...

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by The silence on Fri Feb 5 11:00:38 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 09:52:08 2016.

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They should go downtown and then be re-distributed on to other lines, instead of craming them all on 6th.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 5 11:10:11 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:48:56 2016.

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From a previous message:

"I'd also love to see full peak-direction express service on Broadway-Brooklyn. But that may be more the rail fan in me."

The rail-fan in a lot of us would like to see certain arrangements of various train routes, certain subway or bus lines built and operating, and maybe a few extra things that are really nice to think about.

Yes, the "real-world types" might say that this or that can or can not be done for various reasons or statistics and facts. Some of which can indeed be true, but sometimes not. One reason for being a transit fan is that one does not always have to stay in "the real world."

It is that spark of the imagination, that willingness to think of the possibilities, to ask "what if" - and to enjoy the process of testing an idea.

The day when the basic repeated answer to any and all transit ideas is an "automatic NO!" -- then that is the day when being a transit fan is no more "fun".

Will many of the plans that Wallyhorse and plenty of others propose/suggest ever see the light of day - resulting in something that actually positively affects the riders and transit? Probably not, but maybe sometimes - who knows.

I say, let that transit fan within you "come out" sometimes with suggestions, plans, ideas and proposals. Let the transit fan with in you have some fun - sometimes!

Besides, the day when any and all transit ideas is an "automatic NO!" - what will we have left to talk about? The Dodgers? The Knicks?

Mike

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 11:19:11 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by twarrior3dc on Fri Feb 5 10:21:28 2016.

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The W would go to places the J doesn't, but 4th Ave local riders already jump off the R in favor of the N at 59th, the D at 36th or the 2, 3, 4 or 5 at Atlantic in search of a faster route to those very same places that the J doesn't go to. Would it really be better to run the W on the 4th Ave local, only to have its riders bail on it in favor of all those other trains?

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Feb 5 11:20:46 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Fri Feb 5 04:22:54 2016.

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How many times? Atlantic Ave. is a 2 track thru station. Unless an entirely structure is built, there is no way the current set up can be used as a terminal.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 5 11:31:52 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 09:53:54 2016.

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From a previous message:

"During the L shutdown, there will be more M service, that's for sure. But not more J/Z service probably."

I'd hope that during the closing of the 14th Street Tunnel that the MTA would do the following (in no particular order - but all needed):

a) Create a limited stop bus between the Bedford Avenue station and the 14th Street Third Avenue or Union Square Station, that uses the Williamburg Bridge.

b) Add additional buses to the nearby local Brooklyn bus routes that help L-train riders reach nearby A, C, G, J, M, & Z stations. Even if a few/handful buses have to be borrowed from the Bronx, Manhattan or Queens.

c) Extend the M-train between Metropolitan Avenue and the Sixth Avenue/57th Street station during the day times on weekends for the duration of the tunnel closure. During the nights & midnight hours times - the M-train operates to/from Chambers Street & Metropolitan Avenue for the duration of the tunnel closing.

d) Add an additional train (per hour) to the C-train, add 1 or 2 additional trains (per hour) to the J & M trains for the duration of the tunnel closing.

e) Keep enough of the L-train line trains ON the L-train so that the frequency of train stopping at the L-train Brooklyn stations does not decrease greatly - allowing those riders timely access to transfer to other train lines.

f) Operate the Manhattan portion of the L-train route as a shuttle between 8th Avenue and First Avenue for the duration of the closing.

g) Provide detailed information by various means of the transit and transportation options, while also detailing the progress of the working being done at all stages of the project.

Just my thoughts.
Mike

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 11:32:57 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by BrooklynTrain on Fri Feb 5 08:51:15 2016.

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Agreed. This X train should go to/from 95th. The local stops south of 36th St have higher (and growing) ridership than the stops north of 36th, and 9th Ave isn't even a very busy stop. It wouldn't be worth fouling up the D, N and R trains to extend a Nassau St train to 9th Ave.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 5 11:45:18 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 5 11:10:11 2016.

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The problem with full Broadway express is that the stations skipped are among some of the busiest stations along the j line. Unfortunately, The Jamaica el stations are much more low use and would have been great candidates for local stations, but ironically, its one of the only dual contract els that didn't get an express track.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 5 11:50:24 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 5 11:31:52 2016.

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I don't think they can still use 57th as a terminal since the 63rd St connection

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Re: M Line during L Closure

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 5 11:59:36 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 09:52:08 2016.

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As said on this previously:

My plan there would be beefing up the (M) train with what would on weekdays be a supplemental line that would be an "Orange (T)" that would really be an (M), but signed in with a different letter because these would be going to 96th Street and 2nd Avenue instead of 71st-Continental. During the week, even at peak times this "Orange (T)" would be no more than 6-7 TPH.

The "Orange (T)" would actually be a 24/7 line because late nights and weekends it would also run to/from 96/2, replacing the (M) along most of its route and eliminating the late-night (M) shuttles during those hours.

That is how you handle that.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 13:03:30 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:48:56 2016.

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I like your plan, but I do think the X service should turn at 95th St, not 9th Ave. While 9th Ave is much closer to Broad St, a 9th Ave-bound X would have to first merge with the D at 36th, delaying both the southbound D and N, while the northbound X would delay both the northbound N and R entering 36th. This was the same problem the old M train had.

Also, by turning at 9th Ave, 4th Ave local customers at stations below 36th St would still only have the R, while the less-busy stations above 36th would be getting the X in addition to the R. 9th Ave itself is not that busy of a station. Even though it's further away, I think the X would get better ridership if it runs to/from 95th St.

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Re: M Line during L Closure

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 13:11:17 2016, in response to Re: M Line during L Closure, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 5 11:59:36 2016.

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an "Orange (T)" that would really be an (M), but signed in with a different letter because these would be going to 96th Street and 2nd Avenue instead of 71st-Continental.

No. Such a T train ought to go to Queens Plaza or Continental. Remember that a lot of L folks will find it easiest to take the G to Court Square and change for an E, M, or 7 there. Es and 7s are maxed out. So adding southbound Ms at 23rd/Ely will be useful too.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 13:13:29 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 5 11:50:24 2016.

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It can't. Extend the M to Queens Plaza so and turn it around there to serve the added load of G train riders.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by twarrior3dc on Fri Feb 5 13:54:11 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 11:19:11 2016.

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Do you really think that those same riders wouldn't jump off a J train in favor of an N or D?

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 14:32:09 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 11:32:57 2016.

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Ok. I can "get on board" with that.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 14:35:57 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 13:03:30 2016.

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While I don't know the passenger counts myself, I'll take your word for it. Routing the X to 95th may indeed make more sense.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by caine515 on Fri Feb 5 14:41:31 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Fri Feb 5 04:22:54 2016.

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I'd say don't do the canaries construction till 2ND Ave 🚇 opens. "M" weekend service to 96-2.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 15:25:00 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by twarrior3dc on Fri Feb 5 13:54:11 2016.

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Nope. I'm sure those same riders will jump off the J in favor of the D or N. Why? Because they're headed to Midtown Manhattan and they want to get there as fast as possible. The R just isn't going to do that versus the D or N. The R, rightly or wrongly so, has garnered a reputation for constant delays and inconsistent, unreliable service. It's true that every line experiences delays and "has its bad days." Yet, the complaints about the R keep coming back. But why? It can't be "just a coincidence."

Maybe it's got something to do with the way the line is currently set up. The R runs deep into three boroughs, all local and making many stops in each borough. It has two other lines in Queens and Manhattan (the M in Queens and the N in Manhattan) merging in with it because ridership at those stops demands more frequent and consistent service than the R alone can provide. Not to mention how one of the express lines it runs alongside (the weekday Q) also merges with the R at 34th St. Combine all that with frequent signal and switch problems plus all-too-often sick passenger and NYPD/FDNY investigation and it's not hard to see why the R has that reputation. The J, on the other hand, doesn't have anywhere near as many merges as the R does, has a peak-direction express run between Myrtle and Marcy avenues (yep, it's short, but it's better than no express run like the R) and it has J/Z skip-stop service (yep, for roughly 50-55 minutes during each rush hour period, but still better than being all-local like the R). None of which would have to be taken away if the J were to replace the R in south Brooklyn.

The point is, the R in its current service plan isn't working well. Maybe it's time to try something different. And not some service plan that calls for rearranging all of the south Brooklyn B-Division lines. Maybe extending the J and truncating the R at Whitehall isn't the answer. But doing nothing certainly shouldn't be.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri Feb 5 15:30:57 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 5 11:10:11 2016.

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Nice post. Also worth noting is that the preference for rail can also be proactive (helping develop areas) rather than reactive (simply responding to where people want to go). So much of our current infrastructure was built with the future in mind.

For example, if you started having more trains go to Nassau St, both from Broadway-Brooklyn and from Southern Brooklyn, I wonder if it would impact the area. Were the Bankers Specials removed because of low usage or because they interfered with operations, and did Lower Manhattan become less of a destination as after that or before that?

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 15:31:00 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 13:03:30 2016.

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I looked at the MTA's weekday station ridership stats. I was surprised to see that myself. I always thought it was the stations above 36th that had the higher ridership until looking at those stats. Made me wonder why they kept the rush hour M on the West End Line for as long as they did before rerouting the M to 6th Ave.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 16:44:15 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 5 07:48:56 2016.

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Though I'm wondering if the Z trains are changing over to the letter X at Broad St before leaving for south Brooklyn and turning back into Z trains at Broad in the northbound direction, then why not just use the same letter for the entire route, if they are indeed the same thing?

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 5 17:56:22 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 16:44:15 2016.

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Good point. Back just before the ^3 St connector opened through, midnight Fs terminated at 21 St carrying the letter F as far as Bway/Laf and changing to Q from there to 21 St.S/B the trains carried Q to 50/6 and changed back to F for the remainder of the trip to Stl. The rationale was that the MTA didn’t want to show more than 2 services, the B and the Q going to 21 St. Stupidest thing in creation. trains should retain the same letter for their entire route regardless of their terminals.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 5 19:04:56 2016, in response to J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 4 21:46:41 2016.

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J/Z ridership east of ENY is insufficient to any longer have separate Bway Bklyn Express and Local services. As it is, it runs 12 train per hour for all of one hour each way. The glory days of the "15" and QJ Express are over.

When the L stops running for 3 years, the M will probably have to be the express fro laod balancing, and the J/Z skip-stop pattern, perhaps expanded to 2 hours each way, but extended west to Marcy Av.


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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 19:10:32 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 5 19:04:56 2016.

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I think the express track westbound will need to be used by the M so that it can make left turns without blocking J and Z trains behind it. Eastbound everything will probably have to fit on the local track from Myrtle to Marcy.

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Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?

Posted by Joe V on Fri Feb 5 19:26:11 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Fri Feb 5 15:25:00 2016.

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This gets into why the reliability of the R train is such a disaster. Merging with Astoria trains southbound is not sufficient an excuse, not for the 20, 30, 40 minute waits, even on weekends.

The M goes through quite a challenge too, merging with the F at 15 TPH, , then the J, yet it does not get into as much trouble as the R.

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Re: M Line during L Closure

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 5 23:35:36 2016, in response to Re: M Line during L Closure, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 5 13:11:17 2016.

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Going to 96th/2nd actually cuts down on the number of trainsets needed. Even if it's just one or two less, with the number of cars available it can make a big difference.

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Re: Atlantic Avenue (L) Station

Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 5 23:41:54 2016, in response to Re: J line extension to Bay Ridge after Second Avenue subway opens?, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Feb 5 11:20:46 2016.

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Actually, looking at Google Earth, Atlantic Avenue could actually be re-built to at least four tracks as enough of the old structure was left over to do that. You can even do six tracks if you made the old Snediker Avenue platform terminal tracks (enough of that structure remains to where it could be built back).

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Re: M Line during L Closure

Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 6 02:50:10 2016, in response to Re: M Line during L Closure, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 5 23:35:36 2016.

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Queens Plaza is closer than 96/2nd. And if the L is shut, the 53rd St tunnel needs more service too. If you're anywhere near the G, taking it to Court Square is the fastest way to midtown.

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Re: Atlantic Avenue (L) Station

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 6 14:55:20 2016, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue (L) Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 5 23:41:54 2016.

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Have you ever gotten off of the stairways and strolled the neighborhood there? There are at least 8 project buildings within 4 blocks of Atlantic Ave station. The Fulton St L, Lexington Ave L, and Broadway-Brooklyn lines which once used the 6 track station, are long gone. Brownsville, East New York, and Canarsie will never gentrify in our lifetimes. If you want to run a temporary line using existing trackage there, fine. But, don't rebuild Atlantic Ave. it is one of the least used stations in the system.

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Re: Atlantic Avenue (L) Station

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 6 15:34:37 2016, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue (L) Station, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 6 14:55:20 2016.

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I have.

Many times...for as long as I can remember.
When people allow their fear,instead of common sense,to rule them...they actually BECOME THAT WHICH THEY FEAR.

You can do us all a favor...keep your terror/bigotry to yourself,and everyone will get along just fine.

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Re: M Line during L Closure

Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 6 16:53:06 2016, in response to Re: M Line during L Closure, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 6 02:50:10 2016.

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Probably need shuttle buses from Metro Av to the closest Queens IND station.

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Re: M Line during L Closure

Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 6 17:12:02 2016, in response to Re: M Line during L Closure, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 6 16:53:06 2016.

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Why?

If you live near the L, quicker to take the M straight across the WB and up 6th Ave. Or take the G to Court Square and have 3 transfer choices there.

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Re: M Line during L Closure

Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 6 17:54:13 2016, in response to Re: M Line during L Closure, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 6 17:12:02 2016.

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Because a Manhattan bound M from Maspeth can't take it all.

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Re: Atlantic Avenue (L) Station

Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 6 19:36:02 2016, in response to Re: Atlantic Avenue (L) Station, posted by Edwards! on Sat Feb 6 15:34:37 2016.

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Sorry, but I do recall telling you that I was mugged there! But are right about the common sense part- I never used that station again. All of my "terror/bigotry" isn't going to make that neighborhood or that station get any better! I also recalled that we had a similar exchange about the Myrtle Ave el, south of Broadway.

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