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Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Dave on Sun Aug 16 08:10:58 2015

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Albany, NY - He committed billions of dollars to overhaul LaGuardia Airport and build a new Tappan Zee Bridge — but New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo has taken a wary approach to building a new Hudson River rail tunnel, even though the stakes could be even higher for the state and the nation.

The existing Amtrak tunnel connecting New York City and New Jersey is a century old and in disrepair. Electrical wires corroded by Superstorm Sandy's floods prompted hours-long delays last month that highlighted the tunnel's condition and previewed what could become a chronic problem if nothing is done.

Yet Cuomo sees little light ahead in this tunnel project.

The Democrat balked at an invitation from U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx to meet with him and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie to discuss the construction of a new tunnel, saying there was "no reason to meet now." He told reporters recently that the outlook for the tunnel is "not especially bright."

If that's true, then it's bad news for millions of commuters, not just the 200,000 people who ride trains through the tunnel each day. Amtrak estimates that the existing tunnel — which has a single track in two tubes, one for either direction — has a life expectancy of about 20 years. Closing one tube for a year of repairs would reduce the number of trains using the tunnel from 24 to 6 per hour at peak times, forcing tens of thousands of people onto ferries, buses or cars and further clogging the region's already congested streets.

Longer term, failing to build a new tunnel could strangle the Northeast Corridor between Boston and Washington right at its most critical chokepoint, drive down home prices in New Jersey and cut tax revenues for New York City, according to Richard Barone, director of transportation programs at the Regional Plan Association. A new tunnel, part of a $14 billion plan to improve or replace outdated infrastructure in New Jersey and New York, would likely take a decade to build.

"We're likely to see the region's economy take a serious hit," he told The Associated Press on Wednesday. "We'll be scrambling to adapt to an untenable situation where there aren't any good options. It would be a terrible outcome — for New Jersey, for New York and — I don't think this can be overstated — a problem for the nation."

Nonetheless, there are several reasons why Cuomo is reluctant to start up the tunnel boring machine. He said the project won't work unless Washington commits a sizeable investment. An earlier tunnel proposal included $3 billion in federal funds but was axed by Christie in 2010. Now Cuomo said the federal government is only promising loans.

"If the federal government is serious that this is critical, which it is — this is the entire northeast Amtrak route — we need federal funds," Cuomo said last week. "They need to put their money where their mouth is."

Christie has said he would support a new tunnel project if part of the cost was borne by the state of New York or New York City, neither of which pledged funds for the previous one.

Cuomo's tunnel stance is a departure for a governor who has seemed to revel in taking on big infrastructure projects. He used federal loans to finance the $3.9 billion Tappan Zee Bridge. Last month he joined Vice President Joe Biden to announce a $4 billion plan to rebuild LaGuardia's cramped terminals.

There are several key differences between those projects and the tunnel, Cuomo notes. Private airlines will cover roughly half of the cost of the new LaGuardia. And while the Tappan Zee is a state bridge, the new tunnel would be owned by Amtrak and used for New Jersey trains.

"It's not my tunnel. Why don't you pay for it?" he told reporters this past week.

The primary obstacle remains a financial one, and New York's would-be partners on the tunnel project don't inspire great confidence. New Jersey Transit has been plagued by budget gaps. Amtrak funding has been cut by Congress.

Sen. Charles Schumer proposed this week the creation of a new collaborative effort by New York, New Jersey, the Port Authority and the federal government to secure financing for the project. He also vowed to seek federal dollars.

"It will take energy, commitment, several leaps-of-faith, but above all else: it will take cooperation," he said of the project.

Port Authority chairman John Degnan has said the agency is willing to invest in the project, but that could be complicated by its having to redo its 10-year capital plan to include funding for a new bus terminal in New York City, expected to cost several billion dollars.

A spokeswoman for the U.S. Department of Transportation said the agency will work to secure help from Congress too — as long as the states get on board with the project.

"We know this project will be hard to get done," said Suzanne Emmerling. "We also know the alternative is much worse."

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 16 12:51:39 2015, in response to Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Dave on Sun Aug 16 08:10:58 2015.

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New York has been uninvolved since the mid-2000s when they backed out of ARC. They can't even get ESA right, which is now double the original cost and due to open fourteen years late.

One would think that more road tunnels under the Hudson would be ensuing as well, yes?

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 16 14:15:33 2015, in response to Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Dave on Sun Aug 16 08:10:58 2015.

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The cost of an additional tunnel should be borne mostly by NJ. It's their commuter services that need the capacity. Yes, Amtrak is important to NYC, but they will always get priority as Amtrak owns the existing infrastructure. Amtrak rail service is not really at risk.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 16 14:35:52 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 16 14:15:33 2015.

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It is not NY's responsibility to fund it any more than it was NJ's to fund ESA. That is a Strawman excuse put up by Chrisie so he can continue to do nothing.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 16 14:37:05 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 16 14:15:33 2015.

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arguing the nickles and dimes is pointless. We, all Americans who benefit from the existence of NYC as the financial capital of the country, need the added capacity/redundancy for better maintenance. Until most of the offices are scrapped for telecommuting NYCwillremain the hub. The US needs to get back to serious domestic infrastructure spending, NOW!

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 16 14:41:13 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 16 14:37:05 2015.

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It has to be a combo of public funding: FTA, Amtrak(FRA), PANYNJ, NJ-DOT. NY has too few passengers on the west of Hudson service heading to NYPS to matter one way or the other.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Aug 16 17:17:33 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 16 14:41:13 2015.

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From where I sit in Oakland CA, I far prefer my federal taxes be expended on this project than some useless DOD crap, or subsidies for 1% owned corpoprations too lazy/crooked to compete w/out same.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:16:06 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 16 12:51:39 2015.

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One would think that more road tunnels under the Hudson would be ensuing as well, yes?

One might, if one were a delusional rail hater stuck in 1957, then, and only then, might one have an expectation that anyone within a grasp of sanity would build additional vehicular tunnels into Manhattan.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:19:15 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Aug 16 14:15:33 2015.

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Complete and utter nonsense. A new trans-Hudson commuter rail tunnel exists solely for the benefit of NYC. Without easy access to midtown Manhattan jobs will simply move to surrounding suburban office parks. After that it's just a change of management before those jobs move to office parks around Atlanta, Dallas, or some other state financing their low taxes on the federal dole. NYC needs to buck up and pay their fair share of the tunnels that manifestly benefit their economy.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:21:07 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 16 14:35:52 2015.

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Complete and utter BS, and the one and only time Chrisco was right in his entire term. Most of the economic benefit to be obtained by the construction of new tunnels under the Hudson will be accrued by Manhattan. NJ will realize some benefit, but it's NYC which will see the bulk of the benefit. NYS needs to pay its fair share.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:23:29 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 16 14:41:13 2015.

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But NYS has NYC, which will see most of the economic benefit from the project. NJ could have taken the ARC money and played Race to the Bottom with it, pumping the Gold Coast up even more than it already is, but Chrisco decided his loyalties lay with the highway builders. NYS needs to pay its fair share of the project.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 16 20:28:56 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:21:07 2015.

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The tunnel obviously benefits both NJ and Manhattan. I wonder how much NJ state income tax revenue is paid by New Jersians who use Penn Station. Also, if those people had to work in NJ I don't think they'd make as much money, and therfore pay fewer state inccome taxes.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 16 20:37:14 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:19:15 2015.

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I see your point, but another scenario would have New Jersians moving to LI, especially after ESA gets done. Too bad ARC was cancelled. As you once pointed it would have been at least 1/3 done by now.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Dave on Sun Aug 16 21:58:12 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 16 20:37:14 2015.

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For the most part it will be a cold day in hell before New Jersians move to LI!

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 22:28:59 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 16 20:37:14 2015.

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That seems very unlikely because LI is in an even worse position for urbanizing than NJ. There's relatively little land available for greenfield development on LI (or in the NY Metro area period). With no land available there's also less chance for upzoning on LI, even in the lower income urban areas which now form the basis of NJ's new-urbanist movement. The same is true of Westchester County. IMHO NY needs NJ more than NJ needs NY because without the prospect for lower cost housing available outside NY state NYC is not going to be competitive in a very competitive global marketplace.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 22:39:51 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 16 20:28:56 2015.

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I wonder how much NJ state income tax revenue is paid by New Jersians who use Penn Station.

I believe the figure thrown about when ARC was still a reality was $20 billion in investment in NJ as a result of the greater access to Manhattan. It would seem likely that NYC would see a similar level of investment because those people coming in to NJ due to ARC will likely have jobs in NYC.

Also, if those people had to work in NJ I don't think they'd make as much money, and therfore pay fewer state inccome taxes.

But they may spend less money on their commutes, allowing more to be spent on local sales taxes.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 16 23:15:39 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:23:29 2015.

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This whole thing sounds like negotiating stances. NYC and NYS may end up paying for part of it, but I think they want to make sure NJ and the Fed pay the lion's share. I still doubt, though, NYC will see the most benefit.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 16 23:17:42 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 22:39:51 2015.

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But they may spend less money on their commutes, allowing more to be spent on local sales taxes.

But wouldn't they buy more on the NJ side, closer to home?

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 09:12:55 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:19:15 2015.

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A new trans-Hudson commuter rail tunnel exists solely for the benefit of NYC. Without easy access to midtown Manhattan jobs will simply move to surrounding suburban office parks.

According to the 2013 Hub Bound Report, only 86,000 people came into Manhattan's CBD used suburban or commuter rail through Penn Sta. More commuters used: private cars - 115,000; bus - 192,000; PATH - 116,000.

The total number of people entering the CBD from the NJ corridor was 524,000. The total number of people entering the CBD from all corridors was 3,800,000. The number of NJ commuters using Penn Sta represents 2.2% of all the commuters into the CBD.

NYC needs to buck up and pay their fair share of the tunnels that manifestly benefit their economy.

A better argument could be made for new rail tunnels being necessary for NYC's financial bell being, if NJ commuters paid income tax to NYC. They don't. They do pay NYS income tax. So, NYS does have a financial incentive to providing money to building the new tunnels to protect its income stream.

NYC's interest would be best served by increasing its resident population because it does not derive income tax revenue from commuters. There's plenty of available land in eastern Queens, southeast Brooklyn and Staten Island. It has not been developed because these areas lack decent rail transit. Expanding the subway system to these areas should be NYC's priority.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Mr. Night Train Show on Mon Aug 17 13:03:32 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 09:12:55 2015.

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From a previous post;

A better argument could be made for new rail tunnels being necessary for NYC's financial bell being, if NJ commuters paid income tax to NYC. "They DON'T." They do pay NYS income tax. So, NYS does have a financial incentive to providing money to building the new tunnels to protect its income stream.

I am a New Jersey commuter who earns a salary in New York City. I pay a deduction to New York State. The State collects on behalf of New York City so NYC is getting some taxes from my salary. I don't know the exact percentages but when I do my taxes NYC is calculated with NYS.

I hate to say but as a commuter for over 30 years, the intra structure needs more than a two track tunnel. We need a new Portal Bridge which is as old as the tunnels. In addition it would be smart to have at least three tracks in between NYP and Secaucus Junction and not the current two because you would still have one track in and one track out of NYP.

Amtrak thru the Fed, NJ, NY, & the PA all have to get together. These two states are already in the top ten for taxation.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 17 13:57:56 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Dave on Sun Aug 16 21:58:12 2015.

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Not if their jobs depended on it!

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 14:15:46 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Mr. Night Train Show on Mon Aug 17 13:03:32 2015.

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I am a New Jersey commuter who earns a salary in New York City. I pay a deduction to New York State. The State collects on behalf of New York City so NYC is getting some taxes from my salary. I don't know the exact percentages but when I do my taxes NYC is calculated with NYS.

No sir. As a non-resident of NYS, you filed non-resident form IT-203. New York City and Yonkers have additional income taxes that apply to their residents. If you look at your last IT-203, you will see the entry on line 58 "Total New York City and Yonkers taxes (add lines 52a, 53, and 54)" was zero or left blank.

You paid NYS income taxes on the portion of your income that was earned in NY State. You paid no additional income taxes to NY City like all New York City residents do.

There used to be a commuter tax for non-NYC residents who worked in NYC. It was about 10% of what NYC residents paid. Even this dime on the dollar was too much for the commuters to bear. NJ also felt that it was too much a burden, when NYS re-imposed this tax on only NJ residents. Here's how the NJ Senate reacted at that time. NJ successfully fought that tax. The result is that NYC derives no identifiable income stream from NJ commuters.

NJ loses income tax revenue from NJ residents who work in NYC. Their NYS income taxes are deductible from their NJ income tax. The NJ commuters don't pay extra income tax for working in NYC. NJ is left with lower income tax collections because of NJ residents working in NYC. This may well explain Gov. Christie's reluctance to shell out NJ money in the expectation of getting no return in the future.

NYS is the only entity that has an income stream that is traceable to NJ residents working in NYC. However, that income stream is tiny compared to both NYS' total budget and the expense involved in building new tunnels.

From a purely business (dollars and cents) perspective, building two new Hudson River Tunnels is not in the interest of NJ, NYS nor NYC.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Aug 17 14:55:33 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Dave on Sun Aug 16 21:58:12 2015.

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What about farther north, then? Westchester, Putnam, or Connecticut?

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Q4 on Mon Aug 17 15:10:09 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 14:15:46 2015.

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The State Senate had tried for years to have the original Commuter Tax Law which was a tax on people who worked in NYC but did not live within the City Limits repealed. The State Assembly (Sheldon Silver) would never allow the measure onto the Assembly floor, let along bring it to a vote. However, one year, there were a few State Senate seats (I believe between 3-5, mostly in the Counties near NYC) that were previously held by Republicans that were up for grabs as the incumbents were not running. The Democrats saw this as an opportunity to grab both houses, so to curry favor with the upstate and LI voters, they passed the bill allowing the removal of the Commuter Tax and Governor Pataki signed it into law.

Of course, the plan failed as the Republicans still won the seats and maintained control of the Senate at that time.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 16:03:22 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Q4 on Mon Aug 17 15:10:09 2015.

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What you said is true.

However, after the failed attempt to win Senate control, they rewrote a new commuter tax law. The new tax applied only to out of state residents who worked in NYC. This is the law to which the NJ Senate took exception.

NJ fought the new law in the courts and won. The new law essentially applied an interstate tariff, which is prohibited by the Constitution.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 17 16:10:52 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by 3-9 on Mon Aug 17 14:55:33 2015.

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Nope. More of them will move to PA before that.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Q4 on Mon Aug 17 16:11:13 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 16:03:22 2015.

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I either don't remember or didn't know about the rest of the history that you provided in your first post and here.

Thanks.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 17 16:12:07 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Mr. Night Train Show on Mon Aug 17 13:03:32 2015.

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There would have been bridges into Manhattan from NJ if NYC hadn't had that steam locomotive ban.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 17 16:13:20 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 22:28:59 2015.

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There's a surprising amount of land that can be re-developed, even in NYC. NYC needs to get 400k+ affordable housing units online pronto. That doesn't have a whole lot to do with suburban NJ, but the more units that can be brough online in the city itself, the fewer people are forced out into the suburbs based on price only. Some people will always want to live out in the 'burbs, but people shouldn't get forced out just based on price alone. It's better for the whole region if the people who want to live in the city can afford live in the city.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 17 16:13:24 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by VictorM on Sun Aug 16 20:28:56 2015.

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It benefits NJ almost exclusively. The money flows back to NJ on the rail line. It's the same as CT's budget being propped up by taxes and money coming up the New Haven Line. There just isn't a giant river with two decaying tunnels on that line.

Because of higher wages available, home values go up, tax revenues go up, etc.

NYC should utilize ferries more too. The ferry system is pathetic compared to the trains. Ferries could take some load off of the rail system in the very short term, although they are in NO WAY a replacement for the two additional Gateway tunnels. NYC should also get a more robust ferry system throughout the East River, the southern part of Brooklyn, and Staten Island.

Amtrak needs to be at a point where 3 are active at any given time, and the 4th can be out for an extended period of time for maintenance, which is a sustainable way to operate the tunnels, especially given that the two existing North River Tunnels need extensive maintenance post-Sandy and post-100 years of trains running through them.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 17 16:15:29 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 17 16:13:24 2015.

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It benefits NJ almost exclusively

False. Commuter travel to NY does not and cannot, since they are not being built for NY travelers to go to jobs in NJ or shop in NJ "exclusively" any more than a road tunnel would.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 17 16:35:02 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 17 16:15:29 2015.

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The money goes TOWARD NJ, hence NJ benefits. Granted, NYC couldn't be what it is without the commuter rail coming in from every direction, but looking at one project in particular, the economic benefit is all to NJ. NYC is a machine, and will be just fine without the extra capacity. NJ won't.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Aug 17 17:14:36 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:19:15 2015.

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Or people will be forced to move to NY State...

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 17 18:10:29 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 20:21:07 2015.

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That is utter bullshit.

Jerseyites make up a small minority of the NY workforce while NYC has a population explosion with people looking for jobs. Most commuters ride buses and PATH anyway, not NJT.

NYS fair share is 0%.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 17 18:12:02 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 17 16:10:52 2015.

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Or Delaware, or North Carolina.
NYC does not need NJ very much.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 17 18:16:42 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 09:12:55 2015.

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So the North River tunnels have about a 17% market share.
An NJ makes up a minority of the NYC work force to begin with, like 20%. So the North River Tunnels are not important at all to NYC, say 3 or 4% of the NYC workforce, nothing close to WillD's fantasy that Manhattan benefits the most from these tunnels. Manhattan would get along fine without them.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 17 19:53:37 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 17 18:10:29 2015.

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NYS should put a little bit forward because the businesses in Manhattan rely on Amtrak's connectivity for their folks to get to Philly and DC, but your point is fundamentally correct... NJ gains everything from the Manhattan commuters, while NYC gains nothing.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Mon Aug 17 19:54:08 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by WillD on Sun Aug 16 22:28:59 2015.

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I disagree. I had a job in NYC. When I was choosing where to live, the fact that the North River Tunnels were f'ed up the wazoo (and probably would continue to be for many many more years) was a large factor in my decision to choose somewhere other than NJ. Many people with established jobs in NYC who are looking to move out to the suburbs will choose NY instead of NJ. Thus, in that regard, NJ needs the fix more than NY.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 17 20:04:37 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Mon Aug 17 19:54:08 2015.

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Could explain the crowds on 8 car L trains, even on a Saturday with 5 minute intervals.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 17 20:27:48 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 17 19:53:37 2015.

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I'll go with that.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Aug 17 20:54:08 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 17 18:10:29 2015.

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Most commuters ride buses and PATH anyway, not NJT.

When I get back to the NYC area, I cordially invite you to ride with me on any Midtown Direct train leaving NYP between 5:30 and 7:00 PM, so you can stuff yourself in with all those commuters you say are on PATH or a bus.


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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Aug 17 21:15:01 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by ElectricTraction on Mon Aug 17 19:53:37 2015.

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IAWTP

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 21:27:25 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by JayZeeBMT on Mon Aug 17 20:54:08 2015.

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I cordially invite you to ride with me on any Midtown Direct train leaving NYP between 5:30 and 7:00 PM, so you can stuff yourself in with all those commuters you say are on PATH or a bus.

There is an hourly breakdown of NYC arrivals in the 2013 Hub Bound Report.

The number of people entering NYC CBD from NJ (Lincoln&Holland Tunnels) by bus between 5am and 7pm was 180697.

The number of people entering the NYC CBD via PATH was 110700.

The number of people entering via Penn Sta was 72473. Of this total roughly 2/3's came from the NEC/NJCL trains and 1/3 came via Midtown Direct.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Aug 17 21:43:22 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 21:27:25 2015.

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so very roughly 1/6 come through Penn.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 21:59:51 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Aug 17 21:43:22 2015.

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I didn't include the private cars that come through the tunnels.

If you go back to my original post on this thread, the 24 hour total is 2.2% including private automobiles. The actual percentage might be slightly less because some NJ commuters use the GWB. The Hub Bound Report has no way of identifying them.

The problem with the Hudson River Rail Tunnels is there is no significant revenue stream that a local government would miss. It's called free enterprise.

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Reluctance Is Due to Dannemora Tunnel Debacle...Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by heypaul on Mon Aug 17 22:27:49 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 21:59:51 2015.

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It's too soon after the tunnel fiasco at the upstate prison for The Prince to be able to deal with another tunnel project.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Mon Aug 17 22:46:32 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Mon Aug 17 19:54:08 2015.

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But that very decisionmaking process is exactly what I'm referring to. Deciding to stay within NYS inflates real estate values within NY while allowing half the region to be underinvested. If NYC is going to compete on a global scale it needs to fully utilize the entirety of the Metro area without regard to petty parochial squabbles.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Mon Aug 17 22:48:06 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 16 23:17:42 2015.

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I believe there was a misunderstanding. VictorM said "Also, if those people had to work in NJ I don't think they'd make as much money,", to which I made the response you quoted regarding more of their paycheck being spent on local sales taxes.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Mon Aug 17 22:55:37 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Aug 17 16:12:07 2015.

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No there wouldn't have been. The PRR financed the studies of the bridges and gathered the capital required to construct a Union Station on Manhattan's west side. However, their franchise required the participation of the other railroads terminating on the west shore of the Hudson as they'd be required by the franchise to accommodate those trains. The CNJ, LV, and Erie in particular objected to paying in to the PRR's bridge plans. The PRR wasn't about to go it alone on a bridge which they'd be required to provide to railroads who chose not provide capital funding.

So stop wringing your hands over NYC's steam ban. It wasn't a factor when Cassatt studied the bridge proposal in the late 1890s, and what killed the project was the stinginess of the also-ran railroads who lacked the vision to pay into the PRR's Union Station proposal.

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Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel

Posted by WillD on Mon Aug 17 23:03:00 2015, in response to Re: Cuomo Reluctant To Dig Deep For New Hudson Rail Tunnel, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Aug 17 09:12:55 2015.

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The total number of people entering the CBD from the NJ corridor was 524,000. The total number of people entering the CBD from all corridors was 3,800,000. The number of NJ commuters using Penn Sta represents 2.2% of all the commuters into the CBD.

How is that an argument to not expand capacity? We now know the longstanding claim of NJT commuter buses' supposed profitability is completely false and that commuter rail provides the most cost effective means of getting NJ commuters into NYC.

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